Continuation Part 22: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Vixen pretty much stands alone peddling the stuff she peddles.

This is a question for the lurkers out there - IF any are left. Is there any lurker out there who supports Vixen's posts, who would themselves post one post saying so.

Telling us why is optional. If you are not a regular poster to this thread and are somewhat convinced by Vixen's lies posts, please do us a kindness and tell us so.

I have been lurking for a long time.
Maybe a couple of years.

Vixen's posts are becoming more strident and less comprehensible to me.
The reply with "muh lord" in it was cringe worthy.

I come here for the rebuttals and sometimes a good laugh.
Also an education on forensic science (or, how badly it can be done).

I wish some of the experts here would get as interested in
"Making a Murderer".

:)
 
So Rudy is 510" (179cm), Meredith 5'5" (164cm); Amanda 5'4" (162 cm). I think Raff is average height of 5'8" (173).

No, the facts a court establish should be actual facts. Of course, tangible facts, such as Mr Bloggs' marriage certificate, a police traffic speed meter, a breathalyser and DNA/fingerprint are easier to establish than motive (which is why it is not needed in UK/USA, although Italy expects a suggested motive). Eye-witnesses who say they saw somethng are notoriously liable to memory errors, however, a judge can assess the crediblity of this by comparing this to what other witnesses say, and how they fit the tangible facts.

It is therefore a FACT Mez' DNA was found on the murder knife, Raff's DNA was on the bra-clasp, the luminol did highlight the footprints, presumed recent blood (or turnip jiuce if you are a PIP), there were five mixed DNA samples of Amanda and Mez. These are tangible, objective, scientifically applied and statistically analysed FACTS.

What is more, Amanda and Raff have spelt it out loud and clear they were there at the scene. (Memo to police; scribblings in letters and diary; police intercepts.) Short of big bold letters six feet high in flashing lights, how much more evidence do you need?

The kids must be astonished that despite all of the above there are still people coming out with the sex-crazed lone burglar theory delusion/deliberate lie (delete as appropriate). The five digit marks on Mez' face, together with circular half-moon imprint of a hard nail on her neck, indicates someone grabbing Mez' face from the front. As even the PIP hypothesize Rudy restrained Mez from behnd, it cannot have been his hand, as he'd really have to twist his shoulder, elbow and wrist to grasp Mez' face under the chin and fingers at nostrils.

The procedures of a court are extremely chronologically centred. Thus every thing has to be done 'within X days', an agreed 'timeline' has to be established, and sequence of events becomes key in the act of deliberating a verdict (aka 'applied logic'). As a minor example, the pair both turning off their mobiles prior to the murder, becomes interesting, within the context that they never did this before and that they both denied it and then Amanda came up with three different explanations for it, and Raff continuing to claim there was a signal black spot in his apartment.

This set procedure is dull and boring, but that is how they assess evidence and establish facts. The reasoning for the verdict is down to interpretation and this is indeed an art and somewhat subjective. Hence, the safety net of allowing an appeal. However,t he appeal is only allowable on errors of law, genuinely new evidence not known of as of the time of the trial, perversity (for example the original judge in the Pistorius trial who ruled manslaughter due to an error in reasoning with regards to the facts established) or 'public interest'.

You CANNOT appeal against facts found (except under 'perversity' which is a very uncommon reason for acceptance an appeal).
You miss the point.

Something doesn't become a fact simply because a judge says so. Period. You cankeep stomping your feet everytime you call a "judicial truth" a fact, it will not change the fact, that the DNA of Meredith Kercher allegedly found on the blade of the to big for the smaller wounds and not matching the imprint on the sheet knife is not a fact, but an allegation, because until today nobody knows how the DNA result was "created".

IMV any respectable scientist especially one employed in law enforcement bound to seek "truth and justice" would happily hand over everything to prove the quality of their work and make the case for the prosecution waterproof. I usually would take the scientists word for it, in line with judge Massei who argued "Why on earth would Stefanoni be anything but honest?" despite the fact that she lied in court about the amount of DNA she allegedly found and despite the fact the information about the equipment she used she gave to the court was false. As I said she's either incompetent or lying. And whatever the case is, in the interest of "truth and justice" any impartial judge should have cleared that question. That none of them really tried to clear this up, to me is a sign that they knew that they wouldn't like what they were going to see...

As I said, it's the facts that matter, not the substitute "judicial truth".
 
The PIP's desperation to give validity to the rogue judge Hellman (a business law judge) means you confuse yourselves as to how appeals work.

The merits court (Massei) establishes the facts of a case and comes to a verdict. In the UK/USA, the defendant can appeal on grounds of law , perversity, new evidence, public interest, ONLY, but not on facts found. In Italy, the same grounds for appeal, except the appeal is automatically accepted, and in addition, the appeal court (the Second Instance court) in Italy can look at the merits further but only on the issues of law accepted for the appeal.

In this case, there were two or three issues deemed outstanding, within the context of the appeal pleaded.

In the UK, if an appeal fails, the defendant (not the state) can apply to the High Court to take the appeal further, but permission is rarely granted and is usually on grounds of public interest. It used to go to the House of Lords, but now goes to Supreme Court.

In Italy, either the defendant or the state prosecutor can appeal.

Hellman upheld the defendants' appeal and acquitted the pair calling them 'innocent'.

The state prosecutor appealed on procedural grounds (their submissions were completely ignored in Zanetti-Hellman's summing up).

The appeal automatically went to the Supreme Court, where Chiefi ruled the Hellman court completely perverse, extinguishing the entire judgment and heavily criticising it in unprecedented terms, and sent back down the original issues appealed only back to the lower Second Instance (appeals) court. Nencini looked at the Conti-Vecchiotti issues and witness issues (Aviello, Curatolo and Quintavalle only.

All the facts, aside from the aforementioned, were rubber-stamped by the Chiefi court as legally binding in perpetuity.

Nencini Court considered the Conti-Vecchiotti and eye witness issues only; reassessed the facts, reestablished Massei's original facts on these aforesaid issues (for example, rejecting the claim of contamination or that Aviello was at all a credible witness).

The defendants' automatically appealed to the Supreme Court, legally allowable on the above limited issues ONLY - the Chiefi Supreme Court already having underpinned the legality of the other issues as legally settled facts; and this was constituted of Paulo Bruno, the junior judge who wrote up the report, and Marasca, the lead judge who signed it off.

This judgment is defective, as it interferes with the rulings of the Chiefi Supreme Court, which it does not have the constitutional power to do. It weighs up evidence and facts and substitutes its own verdict in place of the merits court - again defective and legally errant. In effect, they carried out an 'armchair trial', a notoriously unreliable method of dispensing justice.

They were legally perverse in allowing the defence team of Bongiorno two or three days of submissions, including testimony from Prof Peter Gill, who was never cross-examined, and nor did he produce an experts witness statement to the original merits court, as is proper, whilst all other parties to the proceedings were given just twenty minutes each to present their skeleton arguments, in addition to the written appeal/cross appeal, which will have been read by the Supreme Court judges in chambers.
The Bruno-Marasca court did not have the power to acquit a serious criminal case without remitting it back down to a lower court for the evidence under question to be reassessed for its merits. In effect, it queered the pitch of a lower court by making all kinds of findings that had (a) never been presented before a lower merits court (i.e., 'flawed police investigation', 'too much press influence' (perversely, as this was mainly due to Curt Knox' US$2m PR campaign) and (b) make rulings on issues that had never been pleaded by either side. For example, it issued a verdict stating the kids' were present at the scene, but did not participate in the murder. Neither Bongiorno, for Raff nor Dalla Vedova, for Amanda, had pleaded this in the alternative (their sole pleading being, 'they didn't do it, they were not there.')

Both Bruno and Marasca were politically appointed judges, who had not been through the legal career path, and no doubt felt themselves under political pressure to free the pair given (i) the big money invested in the case by multinational corporations (for example, Harper Collins, Simon and Shuster, the US tv networks) (ii) the undercurrent of serious organised crime, with the potential embarrassment of rumoured big money bribes for the Italian government to deal with, in the full glare of international public gaze.
It, however, made it clear, the pair were not found innocent. It did a damage limitation exercise to minimise the kids' chances of compensation (again, unethical of itself).

Shortly, after their long-delayed written reasons ( a breach of court protocol in itself) Marasca immediately retired and Bruno - rumoured to be suffering psychological issues - was moved sideways to a post with a fancy title, but little substance, 'head of the fifth chambers of the Supreme Court'. IOW a desk job.
All clear now?
Clear as mud. ;)
But since we are talking (somewhat) about a case in Italy it doesn't matter how the trial process works in the UK or the US...
For your timeline (sort of) of the judicial proceedings, I'd like to give your own quote from this post back to you:
Paranoia seeps through...
You might want to back up the highlighted parts with real sources...

It's really funny how you try to sign off judge Hellmann as a mere "business law judge" somehow implying that he wasn't fit for the job. He was, and please don't come up with judge Matteini Chiari...
 
I have been lurking for a long time.
Maybe a couple of years.

Vixen's posts are becoming more strident and less comprehensible to me.
The reply with "muh lord" in it was cringe worthy.

I come here for the rebuttals and sometimes a good laugh.
Also an education on forensic science (or, how badly it can be done).

I wish some of the experts here would get as interested in
"Making a Murderer".

:)
Thanks for this. It's always good to hear from lurkers, because they always have a slightly differing take.

But I was not looking for simply another to "pile onto" Vixen. The whole guilter world has gone somewhat dormant esp. when compared to when the kids were in jail.

Will not someone lurking post one post to the effect: "Vixen has a nuanced and correct take on this case"?
 
So Rudy is 510" (179cm), Meredith 5'5" (164cm); Amanda 5'4" (162 cm). I think Raff is average height of 5'8" (173).

No, the facts a court establish should be actual facts. Of course, tangible facts, such as Mr Bloggs' marriage certificate, a police traffic speed meter, a breathalyser and DNA/fingerprint are easier to establish than motive (which is why it is not needed in UK/USA, although Italy expects a suggested motive). Eye-witnesses who say they saw somethng are notoriously liable to memory errors, however, a judge can assess the crediblity of this by comparing this to what other witnesses say, and how they fit the tangible facts.

It is therefore a FACT Mez' DNA was found on the murder knife, Raff's DNA was on the bra-clasp, the luminol did highlight the footprints, presumed recent blood (or turnip jiuce if you are a PIP), there were five mixed DNA samples of Amanda and Mez. These are tangible, objective, scientifically applied and statistically analysed FACTS.

What is more, Amanda and Raff have spelt it out loud and clear they were there at the scene. (Memo to police; scribblings in letters and diary; police intercepts.) Short of big bold letters six feet high in flashing lights, how much more evidence do you need?

The kids must be astonished that despite all of the above there are still people coming out with the sex-crazed lone burglar theory delusion/deliberate lie (delete as appropriate). The five digit marks on Mez' face, together with circular half-moon imprint of a hard nail on her neck, indicates someone grabbing Mez' face from the front. As even the PIP hypothesize Rudy restrained Mez from behnd, it cannot have been his hand, as he'd really have to twist his shoulder, elbow and wrist to grasp Mez' face under the chin and fingers at nostrils.

The procedures of a court are extremely chronologically centred. Thus every thing has to be done 'within X days', an agreed 'timeline' has to be established, and sequence of events becomes key in the act of deliberating a verdict (aka 'applied logic'). As a minor example, the pair both turning off their mobiles prior to the murder, becomes interesting, within the context that they never did this before and that they both denied it and then Amanda came up with three different explanations for it, and Raff continuing to claim there was a signal black spot in his apartment.

This set procedure is dull and boring, but that is how they assess evidence and establish facts. The reasoning for the verdict is down to interpretation and this is indeed an art and somewhat subjective. Hence, the safety net of allowing an appeal. However,t he appeal is only allowable on errors of law, genuinely new evidence not known of as of the time of the trial, perversity (for example the original judge in the Pistorius trial who ruled manslaughter due to an error in reasoning with regards to the facts established) or 'public interest'.

You CANNOT appeal against facts found (except under 'perversity' which is a very uncommon reason for acceptance an appeal).

If as Vixen claims Meredith’s DNA was on the knife and this is a solid fact, why is there a mountain of problems with the DNA evidence and the knife :-
Not matching the wounds. The knife was too big to have caused the wounds
It did not match a bloody outline on the bed
It had no blood
When C + V tested the knife it was negative for the human species which meant the knife did not contain Meredith's biological material.
The circumstances surrounding the collection of the knife are highly suspect. The knife was picked at random from Raffaele's kitchen with no other knives taken from the kitchen or the cottage. How were the police were able to tell this knife was the murder weapon without collecting the other knives? When the knife was collected, the police officers who took the knife had no information on the size of the knife wounds and the knife was not measured prior to collection to compare the knife with wounds on Meredith. A justification used for taking this knife
A factor which is often overlooked is that the when Amanda and Raffaele were being interrogated, they were not accused of stabbing Meredith and in the statements the police prepared for Amanda and Raffaele, no mention was made of Amanda stabbing Meredith. How is this explained if Amanda or Raffaele were supposed to have stabbed Meredith?
The prosecution claimed two knives were used. There were numerous problems with this claim. Why were the prosecution only claiming this when it was shown the knife did not match the wounds and not claiming this from the beginning? Why were the prosecution unable to show how Meredith's wounds were compatible with the use of two knives? How could Raffaele's knife be one of two knives when it was not compatible with any of the stab wounds?
If the knife was used in Meredith's murder, why did the prosecution oppose opening the knife and the defense teams of Amanda and Raffaele had no objection to opening the knife?
In an interview Mignini was asked how Amanda could have carried out the murder without leaving forensic traces. He said Amanda directed the murder from outside the room. How was Amanda was supposed to have stabbed Meredith if directing the murder from the corridor?
How was a knife from Raffaele's apartment used in the murder if the crime was not pre-meditated. Massei argued that Meredith's murder was not pre-meditated. To explain how the knife was used, Massei argued the knife was carried out by Amanda in her handbag. There were no cuts in Amanda's handbag which carrying the knife would have caused. No one heard Amanda mention she was carrying a knife and no witnesses saw this knife.
If the knife was used to stab Meredith, why did the defense teams of Amanda and Raffaele want to see Stefanoni's files and wanted independant experts to examine the knife?
The length of the blade was 17cm and length of the fatal wound was 8cm. The defense teams of Amanda and Raffaele argued the knife was plunged several times to inflict the fatal wound and it is highly unlikely that in a frenzy a 17 cm knife would go exactly 8 cm several times.
When Stefanoni tested the knife for DNA, the results kept coming back as too low.
When questioned in court Stefanoni about the quantity of DNA on the knife, Stefanoni could not tell how much DNA was on the knife. Machiavelli was unable to answer this question when I asked him.
Stefanoni did have the facilities to carry out LCN DNA testing.
The prosecution had to resort to suppressing evidence on a massive scale, lying and forging documents as detailed here
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffaeles-kitchen-knife/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/lab-data-suppression/
 
The knife and the supposed DNA evidence completely demolishes the argument the prosecution had a mountain of solid evidence and a strong case. If the prosecution have a strong case, their evidence should be credible and reliable. The prosecution have had six years and three main trials to argue their case. As stated above there are numerous problems with the knife as evidence. If the prosecution had a mountain of hard evidence and a slam dunk case, why is that with all the time available to present their case, a knife with no credibility whatsoever and full of holes is the best the prosecution have been able to come up with? If the prosecution had a strong case, why did the prosecution have to engage in the massive suppression of evidence, lying and falsifying documents? If the prosecution had a strong case, why was Stefanoni evasive in court and could not answer a basic question like how much DNA was on the knife? If the prosecution had a strong case, why is that that eight years after Meredith’s murder Machiavelli was also unable to answer this question?
 
Ten ludicrous lies of the kids.

Ten ludicrous lies of the kids.

1. Raff said he did not switch off his phone in advance of the murder. There was no signal registered, because he placed his phone on a table which mast signals did not reach. (He claims.)

2. Raff’s team claimed Mez got her superficial ‘pinprick’ injuries by falling to her hands on the exact spot where a sliver of glass from Filomena’s window lay.

3. Raff explained the ‘numerous’ (-Massei) pinprick wounds made by a sharp pointed weapon in a letter to his father, when these wounds were not public knowledge, as being when he accidentally pricked Mez’ hands whilst cooking, and immediately apologised to her.

4. Raff’s team claimed Mez was naked from the waist down, when ‘lone burglar’ Rudy entered her room and attacked her, overcome with lust. Thus, Rudy was free to concentrate on:
• Gripping her hands behind her back.
• Forcing her to her hands and knees, where she received numerous cuts from the shard of glass Rudy deposited on the floor, which fell out from a ridge of his trainers.
• Pulling her hair back.
• Stabbing her in the neck with a knife of a minimum of 9 cm in length.
• Stabbing her in the other side of the neck with a knife with a maximum 4cm x 1.5cm blade, to nearly meet in the middle with the other.
• All the while, sexually assaulting her.
• Tore of her bra from behind.
• Stripping off her t-shirt to remove the bra from the front completely.
• And all the while having Mez in a super-grip wherein she was not able to resist, with just three minor defence injuries, out of a total of 47 injuries.

5. When Amanda arrived at the cottage next morning, the door was wide open and she thought it must be someone taking out the trash, although at no time did she meet anyone returning back in.

6. Amanda then had a shower and only noticed an orange splodge of blood as she stepped out. She used this bloodstained bathmat – which she said she thought was Mez’ period (or in an alternative version, it was Rudy's, who had rolled up his trouser leg to wash off blood – to slide back and forth to her room, to get a towel. This explains why there are only a few of her footprints highlighted by luminol. This was where her foot slipped off the mat.

7. The ludicrous tale written 2:45am to everyone in her address book of the wandering mop; how she ferried it back and forth between Raff and the cottage because of flooding caused by (a) a leaked pipe, in one version of the tale and, (b) a burst pipe, in another. Raff gilds the lily, by claiming Amanda proceeded to mop his floor whilst he cooked breakfast, in one version, or rather, he did, in another.

8. The pair couldn’t remember what they did that evening as they had smoked a joint.

9. Raff told the DAILY MIRROR next day, ‘We were at a party the murder evening. My girlfriend was the first to discover the body.’ Amanda was overhead in the Questura on the phone to friends and family bragging, 'I found the body.'

10. Amanda writes in her early hours of the morning email, ‘how I found my roommate murdered’ explaining how she banged on Mez’ door, panicking and banging louder and louder and shouting out her name. Battistelli and police colleague witnesses noted Amanda was calm and laid back when they arrived and reassured them her door was ‘always locked’.
 
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Of course Sollecito made a mistake there as he thought there was a prick on the back of Kercher's hand, but in fact the injuries were on the palms. Almost as if he did not know where the injuries were!

From his diary I do not think Raffaelle determined a location on Meredith's hand, just that he had accidentally pricked her hand. I think more he was trying to explain why there could possibly be DNA of Meredith on the knife - not that he was subtly conveying details of Meredith's injuries (thus being her murderer).

I know you were not the one to say back of hand. Maybe in a later publication or media Raffaelle did locate the injury but his diary in November 2007 was probably the first he had written of this.
 
If as Vixen claims Meredith’s DNA was on the knife and this is a solid fact, why is there a mountain of problems with the DNA evidence and the knife :-
Not matching the wounds. The knife was too big to have caused the wounds
It did not match a bloody outline on the bed
It had no blood
When C + V tested the knife it was negative for the human species which meant the knife did not contain Meredith's biological material.
The circumstances surrounding the collection of the knife are highly suspect. The knife was picked at random from Raffaele's kitchen with no other knives taken from the kitchen or the cottage. How were the police were able to tell this knife was the murder weapon without collecting the other knives? When the knife was collected, the police officers who took the knife had no information on the size of the knife wounds and the knife was not measured prior to collection to compare the knife with wounds on Meredith. A justification used for taking this knife
A factor which is often overlooked is that the when Amanda and Raffaele were being interrogated, they were not accused of stabbing Meredith and in the statements the police prepared for Amanda and Raffaele, no mention was made of Amanda stabbing Meredith. How is this explained if Amanda or Raffaele were supposed to have stabbed Meredith?
The prosecution claimed two knives were used. There were numerous problems with this claim. Why were the prosecution only claiming this when it was shown the knife did not match the wounds and not claiming this from the beginning? Why were the prosecution unable to show how Meredith's wounds were compatible with the use of two knives? How could Raffaele's knife be one of two knives when it was not compatible with any of the stab wounds?
If the knife was used in Meredith's murder, why did the prosecution oppose opening the knife and the defense teams of Amanda and Raffaele had no objection to opening the knife?
In an interview Mignini was asked how Amanda could have carried out the murder without leaving forensic traces. He said Amanda directed the murder from outside the room. How was Amanda was supposed to have stabbed Meredith if directing the murder from the corridor?
How was a knife from Raffaele's apartment used in the murder if the crime was not pre-meditated. Massei argued that Meredith's murder was not pre-meditated. To explain how the knife was used, Massei argued the knife was carried out by Amanda in her handbag. There were no cuts in Amanda's handbag which carrying the knife would have caused. No one heard Amanda mention she was carrying a knife and no witnesses saw this knife.
If the knife was used to stab Meredith, why did the defense teams of Amanda and Raffaele want to see Stefanoni's files and wanted independant experts to examine the knife?
The length of the blade was 17cm and length of the fatal wound was 8cm. The defense teams of Amanda and Raffaele argued the knife was plunged several times to inflict the fatal wound and it is highly unlikely that in a frenzy a 17 cm knife would go exactly 8 cm several times. When Stefanoni tested the knife for DNA, the results kept coming back as too low.
When questioned in court Stefanoni about the quantity of DNA on the knife, Stefanoni could not tell how much DNA was on the knife. Machiavelli was unable to answer this question when I asked him.
Stefanoni did have the facilities to carry out LCN DNA testing.
The prosecution had to resort to suppressing evidence on a massive scale, lying and forging documents as detailed here
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffaeles-kitchen-knife/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/lab-data-suppression/

There is no logical reason to expect a knife 'should go in all the way if there is intent to kill'. Firstly, the hyoid bone caused resistance. Whilst not a hard bone, nonetheless, it's not easy to break with a knife. The hyoid was found to have been abrased by the knife, which experts said would have had to have been at least 9 cm to reach that far back. The three stab wounds were not all exactly 8 cm and the whole wound was a mess of lesions. Thank you for confirming it could not have been 'a frenzy' but a cold calculated intent to cause Mez' death.

The stab wound on the other side could only have been caused by a smaller knife.

So this 'frenzied killer' was calculatingly armed with two different knives and was level headed enough to put one down, whilst he accessed the other.

Quite.

Stefanoni amplified the DNA several times over and yielded a 15-allele profile of Mez. That cannot happen at random.
 
If as Vixen claims Meredith’s DNA was on the knife and this is a solid fact, why is there a mountain of problems with the DNA evidence and the knife :-
Not matching the wounds. The knife was too big to have caused the wounds
It did not match a bloody outline on the bed
It had no blood
When C + V tested the knife it was negative for the human species which meant the knife did not contain Meredith's biological material.
The circumstances surrounding the collection of the knife are highly suspect. The knife was picked at random from Raffaele's kitchen with no other knives taken from the kitchen or the cottage. How were the police were able to tell this knife was the murder weapon without collecting the other knives? When the knife was collected, the police officers who took the knife had no information on the size of the knife wounds and the knife was not measured prior to collection to compare the knife with wounds on Meredith. A justification used for taking this knife
A factor which is often overlooked is that the when Amanda and Raffaele were being interrogated, they were not accused of stabbing Meredith and in the statements the police prepared for Amanda and Raffaele, no mention was made of Amanda stabbing Meredith. How is this explained if Amanda or Raffaele were supposed to have stabbed Meredith?
The prosecution claimed two knives were used. There were numerous problems with this claim. Why were the prosecution only claiming this when it was shown the knife did not match the wounds and not claiming this from the beginning? Why were the prosecution unable to show how Meredith's wounds were compatible with the use of two knives? How could Raffaele's knife be one of two knives when it was not compatible with any of the stab wounds?
If the knife was used in Meredith's murder, why did the prosecution oppose opening the knife and the defense teams of Amanda and Raffaele had no objection to opening the knife?
In an interview Mignini was asked how Amanda could have carried out the murder without leaving forensic traces. He said Amanda directed the murder from outside the room. How was Amanda was supposed to have stabbed Meredith if directing the murder from the corridor?
How was a knife from Raffaele's apartment used in the murder if the crime was not pre-meditated. Massei argued that Meredith's murder was not pre-meditated. To explain how the knife was used, Massei argued the knife was carried out by Amanda in her handbag. There were no cuts in Amanda's handbag which carrying the knife would have caused. No one heard Amanda mention she was carrying a knife and no witnesses saw this knife.
If the knife was used to stab Meredith, why did the defense teams of Amanda and Raffaele want to see Stefanoni's files and wanted independant experts to examine the knife?
The length of the blade was 17cm and length of the fatal wound was 8cm. The defense teams of Amanda and Raffaele argued the knife was plunged several times to inflict the fatal wound and it is highly unlikely that in a frenzy a 17 cm knife would go exactly 8 cm several times.
When Stefanoni tested the knife for DNA, the results kept coming back as too low.
When questioned in court Stefanoni about the quantity of DNA on the knife, Stefanoni could not tell how much DNA was on the knife. Machiavelli was unable to answer this question when I asked him.
Stefanoni did have the facilities to carry out LCN DNA testing.
The prosecution had to resort to suppressing evidence on a massive scale, lying and forging documents as detailed here
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffaeles-kitchen-knife/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/lab-data-suppression/

Also the knife was removed from the original clean forensic collection bag in the police station and examined and repackaged in a non 'clean' container. There was no record of what other material nor whom was present when this was done or prior to this being done. The knife was then subject to LCN DNA testing. Forensic standards all emphasise the need to handle evidence subject to LCN testing with special care. This breach in the chain of the evidence would have resulted in its being excluded from LCN DNA testing in the UK or US.

The sample from the knife blade tested as containing no detectable DNA (actually a non human specific test was done). Unlike other samples that had this result this sample was put forward for typing. The sample from the knife blade was subject to a unique process including vacuum extraction which is a high risk process for contamination. There is no record of negative controls for this process. The sample was not tested in duplicate as was normal practice.

The handling and processing of this sample was different from any other samples in this case. Why? Why did Steffanoni put this sample through for typing despite the negative test for DNA unlike other samples with this result? It is almost as if she had prior knowledge of the result!
 
Also the knife was removed from the original clean forensic collection bag in the police station and examined and repackaged in a non 'clean' container. There was no record of what other material nor whom was present when this was done or prior to this being done. The knife was then subject to LCN DNA testing. Forensic standards all emphasise the need to handle evidence subject to LCN testing with special care. This breach in the chain of the evidence would have resulted in its being excluded from LCN DNA testing in the UK or US.

The sample from the knife blade tested as containing no detectable DNA (actually a non human specific test was done). Unlike other samples that had this result this sample was put forward for typing. The sample from the knife blade was subject to a unique process including vacuum extraction which is a high risk process for contamination. There is no record of negative controls for this process. The sample was not tested in duplicate as was normal practice.

The handling and processing of this sample was different from any other samples in this case. Why? Why did Steffanoni put this sample through for typing despite the negative test for DNA unlike other samples with this result? It is almost as if she had prior knowledge of the result!


Quite. As you point out, the gross incompetence and malpractice that took place in the chain of custody and transportation of this knife should, in and of itself, have rendered it worthless for low-template analysis. It almost beggars belief that the knife was effectively "taken out for inspection" when it got back from Sollecito's apartment to the police HQ, and that it was then re-packaged in a box that had contained a desk diary which happened to be hanging around in the office!

And then one adds in Stefanoni's extraordinary mixture of incompetence, "experimental techniques" and abject failure to observe/follow necessary protocols and care required for low-template work. On top of all that, as you correctly point out, Stefanoni cranked up the machine beyond its reliable operational parameters and took extraordinary (and scientifically unheard of and unpractised) methods to get a "result" in terms of a matched profile. I am in no doubt whatsoever that Stefanoni was operating (possibly subconsciously, but most probably under explicit instruction) to obtain useable evidence against Knox and/or Sollecito - and of course the most useful thing for her to have been able to "find" would have been Kercher's DNA profile on a knife which had apparently never left Sollecito's apartment. As you allude....... funny, that.......................
 
I have been lurking for a long time.
Maybe a couple of years.

Vixen's posts are becoming more strident and less comprehensible to me.
The reply with "muh lord" in it was cringe worthy.

I come here for the rebuttals and sometimes a good laugh.
Also an education on forensic science (or, how badly it can be done).

I wish some of the experts here would get as interested in
"Making a Murderer".

:)
I must agree.
I am a great believer in listing parallels between murder cases.

To get someone in jail who was unconnected to the crime you must always manufacture evidence and a time line. Blood is the problem almost always.
Russ Faria
Amanda Knox
Steven Avery.

Nowhere to be seen except, a bloodless dna match to Kercher on a knife and blood painted with a cottonbud from a busted seal on a vial of Avery's blood.
Oh yes, please all move to the project of busting Steven Avery out of jail.
Amanda is free except for the sordid denial of tabloid slut family Kercher.
 
I must agree.
Nowhere to be seen except, a bloodless dna match to Kercher on a knife and blood painted with a cottonbud from a busted seal on a vial of Avery's blood.
Oh yes, please all move to the project of busting Steven Avery out of jail.
Amanda is free except for the sordid denial of tabloid slut family Kercher.

I think that is wrong. . . .Families of murder victims almost always cannot accept when the conviction of somebody the police tells them murdered their son/daughter/father/mother/etc get overturned. Call them wrong sure, but don't besmirch them for it.
 
I think that is wrong. . . .Families of murder victims almost always cannot accept when the conviction of somebody the police tells them murdered their son/daughter/father/mother/etc get overturned. Call them wrong sure, but don't besmirch them for it.
I expect the rebuke but will never resile from stating facts DF. People make choices and sometimes they perpetuate grave difficulties for honest citizens to lead their lives. At last count No member of Meredith Kercher's family suffers travel restrictions but they have made damn sure Amanda does.
I have just contempt for their behaviour through 9 years.
 
I expect the rebuke but will never resile from stating facts DF. People make choices and sometimes they perpetuate grave difficulties for honest citizens to lead their lives. At last count No member of Meredith Kercher's family suffers travel restrictions but they have made damn sure Amanda does.
I have just contempt for their behaviour through 9 years.

If you were sure somebody murdered your child / wife / parent and they were acquitted, are you sure you would be any different than them? I don't know if I would be.
 
Also the knife was removed from the original clean forensic collection bag in the police station and examined and repackaged in a non 'clean' container. There was no record of what other material nor whom was present when this was done or prior to this being done. The knife was then subject to LCN DNA testing. Forensic standards all emphasise the need to handle evidence subject to LCN testing with special care. This breach in the chain of the evidence would have resulted in its being excluded from LCN DNA testing in the UK or US.

The sample from the knife blade tested as containing no detectable DNA (actually a non human specific test was done). Unlike other samples that had this result this sample was put forward for typing. The sample from the knife blade was subject to a unique process including vacuum extraction which is a high risk process for contamination. There is no record of negative controls for this process. The sample was not tested in duplicate as was normal practice.

The handling and processing of this sample was different from any other samples in this case. Why? Why did Steffanoni put this sample through for typing despite the negative test for DNA unlike other samples with this result? It is almost as if she had prior knowledge of the result!

Raff's forensic witness was present during the testing. There is zero way Stefanoni could 'fix' it to get her 3bn to one against result. The idea is ludicrous. It's like suggesting that a policeman would 'fix' a breathalyser test to frame a completely random person. One PIP tried to explain it by insinuating Stefanoni was sleeping with Mignini and she did it for him! No comment.


As for the stationery box, that is a complete red herring, and proves Bruno understands nothing about science, for all his chunterings about Gallileo. No crime scene is a sterile environment. There is blood, gore, dirt, dust, bacteria, fibres, mites, mite droppings, dead flies, crumbs, old food, grease, etc., all over the place. A random stationery box won't add Mez' DNA to the knife. It had been lying in a non-sterile knife drawer before that.

Stefanoni has shown herself to be dedicated and conscientious, which is why, when she found twelve human traces on the blade in the striations, where the scrubbing brush did not reach, it was her job to test them. Amazingly, one yielded Mez' DNA. As DNA is a double helix string of loci, to get the machine reading showing a near full match of Mez is billions to one against. Stefanoni could not 'fix' the machine to do this.
 
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If you were sure somebody murdered your child / wife / parent and they were acquitted, are you sure you would be any different than them? I don't know if I would be.
I made a simple observation.
eg:
Stephanie Kercher prosecuted Amanda Knox.
Stephanie Kercher said she would not read her book.
Stephanie Kercher has always been free to travel.

Amanda Knox was prosecuted by Stephanie Kercher.
Amanda Knox wrote a book that related facts.
Amanda Knox was jailed for four years and then prevented from travelling for four years.

Amanda Knox told truth at all times and Stephanie Kercher repeated falsehoods at all times.

With whom do you raft your boat?
 
There is no logical reason to expect a knife 'should go in all the way if there is intent to kill'. Firstly, the hyoid bone caused resistance. Whilst not a hard bone, nonetheless, it's not easy to break with a knife. The hyoid was found to have been abrased by the knife, which experts said would have had to have been at least 9 cm to reach that far back. The three stab wounds were not all exactly 8 cm and the whole wound was a mess of lesions. Thank you for confirming it could not have been 'a frenzy' but a cold calculated intent to cause Mez' death.

The stab wound on the other side could only have been caused by a smaller knife.

So this 'frenzied killer' was calculatingly armed with two different knives and was level headed enough to put one down, whilst he accessed the other.

Quite.

Stefanoni amplified the DNA several times over and yielded a 15-allele profile of Mez. That cannot happen at random.

Vixen brings up the two knife theory. Basic common sense dicates that if a knife is used to stab someone, it must match the wounds and a knife which does not match the wounds can't be the murder weapon and has no credibility as evidence. The two knife theory smacks of desperation to explain how the knife could be used in the murder when it was found it did not match the wounds. It has never been claimed all the three wounds were 8 cm. With regards to the fatal wound, the length of this wound was 8 cm. There was bruising at the point of entry which indicated the knife had been pushed all the way to the handle. The length of Raffaele's knife was 17 cm which ruled out Raffaele's knife as causing the large wound.

If the DNA on the knife was valid, how was that C&V in their report were able to find numerous problems in Stefanoni's work? Vixen and Machiavelli have constantly described C&V as incompetent buffoons who knew nothing about DNA. If Stefanoni's work was valid, how was it that a pair of supposedly clueless idiots were able to rip Stefanoni's work to shreds? If Stefaoni's work was valid, PGP should have no problems answering Stefanoni's critics and defending her work. I asked Machiavelli to write a rebuttal of C&Vs work and he came with a lame excuse he was not paid to rebut their report. If Stefanoni's work was valid, why was Machiavelli unable to defend Stefanoni's work? If the DNA was valid, why is that Machiavelli eight years after Meredith's murder could not answer a basic question such as how much DNA was on the knife?

If the knife/DNA evidence was valid and a solid piece of evidence which the prosecution had so much faith in, how do you explain the conduct of the prosecution and the arguments PGP have to resort to as detailed below. If Vixen had so much faith in the DNA evidence, why does she have to resort to lies in her posts such saying that Amanda's friend had been selling photos of her friend to the media?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10485382#post10485382
 
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Raff's forensic witness was present during the testing. There is zero way Stefanoni could 'fix' it to get her 3bn to one against result. The idea is ludicrous. It's like suggesting that a policeman would 'fix' a breathalyser test to frame a completely random person. One PIP tried to explain it by insinuating Stefanoni was sleeping with Mignini and she did it for him! No comment.


As for the stationery box, that is a complete red herring, and proves Bruno understands nothing about science, for all his chunterings about Gallileo. No crime scene is a sterile environment. There is blood, gore, dirt, dust, bacteria, fibres, mites, mite droppings, dead flies, crumbs, old food, grease, etc., all over the place. A random stationery box won't add Mez' DNA to the knife. It had been lying in a non-sterile knife drawer before that.

Stefanoni has shown herself to be dedicated and conscientious, which is why, when she found twelve human traces on the blade in the striations, where the scrubbing brush did not reach, it was her job to test them. Amazingly, one yielded Mez' DNA. As DNA is a double helix string of loci, to get the machine reading showing a near full match of Mez is billions to one against. Stefanoni could not 'fix' the machine to do this.

One of the problems with knife was than when C&V tested the knife it was negative for the human species and there is no record of the prosecution claiming there were human traces on the knife which means Vixen is lying when she says there were 12 human traces on the knife. If the DNA was valid, why does Vixen have to resort to lying to argue her case? Stefanoni lied, falsified documents and suppressed evidence but Vixen describes her as dedicated and conscientious. Vixen constantly accuses Amanda and Raffaele of lying and Vixen's post is another example of how her and other PGP accuse Amanda and Raffaele of lying whilst lying themselves and condoning the lies of others.
 
Ten ludicrous lies of the kids.

1. Raff said he did not switch off his phone in advance of the murder. There was no signal registered, because he placed his phone on a table which mast signals did not reach. (He claims.)

2. Raff’s team claimed Mez got her superficial ‘pinprick’ injuries by falling to her hands on the exact spot where a sliver of glass from Filomena’s window lay.

3. Raff explained the ‘numerous’ (-Massei) pinprick wounds made by a sharp pointed weapon in a letter to his father, when these wounds were not public knowledge, as being when he accidentally pricked Mez’ hands whilst cooking, and immediately apologised to her.

4. Raff’s team claimed Mez was naked from the waist down, when ‘lone burglar’ Rudy entered her room and attacked her, overcome with lust. Thus, Rudy was free to concentrate on:
• Gripping her hands behind her back.
• Forcing her to her hands and knees, where she received numerous cuts from the shard of glass Rudy deposited on the floor, which fell out from a ridge of his trainers.
• Pulling her hair back.
• Stabbing her in the neck with a knife of a minimum of 9 cm in length.
• Stabbing her in the other side of the neck with a knife with a maximum 4cm x 1.5cm blade, to nearly meet in the middle with the other.
• All the while, sexually assaulting her.
• Tore of her bra from behind.
• Stripping off her t-shirt to remove the bra from the front completely.
• And all the while having Mez in a super-grip wherein she was not able to resist, with just three minor defence injuries, out of a total of 47 injuries.

5. When Amanda arrived at the cottage next morning, the door was wide open and she thought it must be someone taking out the trash, although at no time did she meet anyone returning back in.

6. Amanda then had a shower and only noticed an orange splodge of blood as she stepped out. She used this bloodstained bathmat – which she said she thought was Mez’ period (or in an alternative version, it was Rudy's, who had rolled up his trouser leg to wash off blood – to slide back and forth to her room, to get a towel. This explains why there are only a few of her footprints highlighted by luminol. This was where her foot slipped off the mat.

7. The ludicrous tale written 2:45am to everyone in her address book of the wandering mop; how she ferried it back and forth between Raff and the cottage because of flooding caused by (a) a leaked pipe, in one version of the tale and, (b) a burst pipe, in another. Raff gilds the lily, by claiming Amanda proceeded to mop his floor whilst he cooked breakfast, in one version, or rather, he did, in another.

8. The pair couldn’t remember what they did that evening as they had smoked a joint.

9. Raff told the DAILY MIRROR next day, ‘We were at a party the murder evening. My girlfriend was the first to discover the body.’ Amanda was overhead in the Questura on the phone to friends and family bragging, 'I found the body.'

10. Amanda writes in her early hours of the morning email, ‘how I found my roommate murdered’ explaining how she banged on Mez’ door, panicking and banging louder and louder and shouting out her name. Battistelli and police colleague witnesses noted Amanda was calm and laid back when they arrived and reassured them her door was ‘always locked’.

As Vixen yet again accuses Amanda and Raffaele of lying, I thought a reminder is needed how Vixen and her fellow PGP lie themselves, condone and ignore the lies of others and Vixen's refusal to explain the hypocrisy of the PGP http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11333709#post11333709
 
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