Brexit: the referendum

uke2se said:
Yes, it definitely should, and evidence and reason tells us that one side lies considerably more than the other.
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Just as an independent observer who is married to an English chick and lived there for ten years I think neither side can really claim the less lying high ground
 
cullennz said:
Just as an independent observer who is married to an English chick and lived there for ten years I think neither side can really claim the less lying high ground
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This should be relatively easy to test. Certain claims by the Leave campaign are demonstrably untrue.

Off the top of my head the 350m, the EU stops us hiring Indian engineers are blatant lies.

There are other implied lies such as 'we could have an Australian style points immigration system' when in fact we could have that right now and nothing is stopping us doing it.

We could create a list of these dishonesties.

Now can those on the other side of the argument generate an equivalent list for Remain? and I don't mean 'I disagree with this forecast' because reasonable people can disagree on forecasts but actual dishonesties?

Because what I see in these debates is Brexiter talking points being debunked such as the £350m and Remain points being dismissed without evidence or ignored.

The worst I think I could accuse Remain of doing is pushing buttons on things like pensions which may or may not be as badly affected a they say. The closest I think they get to dishonesty is trying to suggest that Turkey will never join the EU because I think it's fairly obvious that could well happen but that it would be someway down the line.
 
Argumemnon said:
I wonder if it's going to be a case of "go with the lesser evil" again. I would think one'd rather go with the best solution.
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All signs are pointing to Leave at the moment but most referendum results tend to swing back towards status quo at the last minute. DC hasn't even made any Vows yet. Wait till next week.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
This should be relatively easy to test. Certain claims by the Leave campaign are demonstrably untrue.

Off the top of my head the 350m, the EU stops us hiring Indian engineers are blatant lies.

There are other implied lies such as 'we could have an Australian style points immigration system' when in fact we could have that right now and nothing is stopping us doing it.

We could create a list of these dishonesties.

Now can those on the other side of the argument generate an equivalent list for Remain? and I don't mean 'I disagree with this forecast' because reasonable people can disagree on forecasts but actual dishonesties?

Because what I see in these debates is Brexiter talking points being debunked such as the £350m and Remain points being dismissed without evidence or ignored.

The worst I think I could accuse Remain of doing is pushing buttons on things like pensions which may or may not be as badly affected a they say. The closest I think they get to dishonesty is trying to suggest that Turkey will never join the EU because I think it's fairly obvious that could well happen but that it would be someway down the line.
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I actually find the whole labeling of both sides a bit creepy

The "leavers" and "remainers"

A bit too old school simmering resentment

Probably reading too much into it
 
Argumemnon said:
I wonder if it's going to be a case of "go with the lesser evil" again. I would think one'd rather go with the best solution.
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In this case it's not a matter of "lesser evil". It's a matter of staying in and work together, or drop out and give up. Staying in provides measurable benefits that are already in place. Dropping out could conceivably provide benefits, but nobody knows, and the experts are saying 'no'.
 
uke2se said:
In this case it's not a matter of "lesser evil". It's a matter of staying in and work together, or drop out and give up. Staying in provides measurable benefits that are already in place. Dropping out could conceivably provide benefits, but nobody knows, and the experts are saying 'no'.
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It's a bit like a long-standing marriage. Each partner already gets the benefits associated with being in the relationship so the only way that they can respond to the suggestion that the marriage should end is to make some forecasts about how things are likely to be after the split - not knowing what the asset split, custody arrangement, alimony and so on are going to be like.

OTOH the Brexit campaign seem to be doing the equivalent of telling the man that he can continue to **** his ex-wife whilst having his pick of other sex partners, that he can spend the money he currently contributes to the running of the family homes on a new stereo, and a new car, and a great holiday and so on, that he'll get full custody of the kids and the dog unless he doesn't want them that weekend in which case his ex-wife will be happy to take them.
 
Complete kiwi question. But wonder what the outcome means for Helen Clarks Head of U.N. bid
 
uke2se said:
And again, discussing, negotiating and cajoling, finding partners in other nations with common interests, is a good way to get your will through, no matter who's the opposition. As we've learned, the UK has gotten its will through the vast majority of the time.
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According to this BBC report, The Netherlands see the UK as a natural ally against the Continental powers of France and Germany.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36549603

OTOH, this is the kind of person that wants the EU split up.

Geert Wilders is the leader of the populist, right-wing PVV, which currently tops Dutch opinion polls.

Overtly anti-Islam and anti-EU, he is hoping that a British vote to leave the EU would start a domino effect; that a Brexit would lead to a similar referendum on a Nexit.
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cullennz said:
Just as an independent observer who is married to an English chick and lived there for ten years I think neither side can really claim the less lying high ground
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On the other hand, there are plenty of organisations that have come out with disagreeing with what the Leave said has said about them or quoted them as supposely saying in support of their side. For Remain, not so many.
 
I have already voted with my postal vote, so thankfully I can now ignore what has been a dreadful campaign that has by all indications now included the murder of an MP.
 
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