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Tony Szamboti vs. tfk Debate

One White Eye Knows Tony is as you say, he is just trying to be fair to the guidelines of the forum, as he promised Years ago.

An open discussion.

The Forum was basicly a replacement for physorg because trolling got to bad on physorg, and moderation did not take action.

I agree, OWE knows Tony's CD claims are nonsense. The aircraft ruse adds to the paranoia.
So, beachnut, check this out: you've upped the traffic to this site ten-fold, singlehandedly. This would be an obscure little corner of nowhere but for you.
However, compared to other sites... oops, as someone said, it is dead...
Unfortunately we don’t have enough traffic data for this website… yet.
We know that little things make big things happen so make sure you come back to get more insights once this website has matured.

On to the debate... the fantasy of CD is alive in the paranoid minds of 9/11 truth followers, in a movement based on lies, fantasy, and BS.

oops, who will mow my lawn...
 
I agree, OWE knows Tony's CD claims are nonsense. The aircraft ruse adds to the paranoia.
However, compared to other sites... oops, as someone said, it is dead...


On to the debate... the fantasy of CD is alive in the paranoid minds of 9/11 truth followers, in a movement based on lies, fantasy, and BS.

oops, who will mow my lawn...

I just have mine cut for hay, lot simpler and easiest way I found.
 
I agree, OWE knows Tony's CD claims are nonsense. The aircraft ruse adds to the paranoia.
However, compared to other sites... oops, as someone said, it is dead...


On to the debate... the fantasy of CD is alive in the paranoid minds of 9/11 truth followers, in a movement based on lies, fantasy, and BS.

oops, who will mow my lawn...

Once the main work was done it kinda died, I was a member years ago, but during the Banzantian era everything kinda got dry and boring.

Wasn't really interested in the details of the connection failures that were the collapses, was always more interested in science of the observed evidence.

So when it was clear Jone's was a joke, an intellectual fraud I lost interest.
 
Here's my response:

1. The topic is restricted to the collapse of WTC 7 WTC 1, 2 & 7, the NIST report on it, and any additional information and analyses in the public domain about it.

I would say that WTC 1 is pretty much integral to discussion of WTC 7. Even WTC 2, to a small extent.
 
Why this debate is scheduled for a forum so dead that the admin expresses great surprise at a new sign-up is quite a mystery to me.

Couldn't it be held here as a moderated one-on-one debate? What's the attraction of that particular place?

All comments in the debate will be mirrored in a "no other posters", locked thread here.

You'll be able to read the entire thing here.

I highly recommend reading the "color commentary" over there, tho.
When I posted there (years ago, for only a short while before being banned), I always found it, uh, "entertaining". In a bizarre, surreal sort of way.

My very first interaction, IIRC, was commenting on a model (or "kinematic something-or-other" that they insisted was not a model ??) of the WTC 1 floor above the collapse & the floor below.

Engineers are acutely (perhaps hyper-) sensitive to "precision of measurements".

In this model, femr had taken measurements off of some drawing, and was reporting the locations of the columns with something like 10 significant digits. This sort of thing is ludicrous for way too many reasons to list.

I recommended that, even for the pristine tower before impact, the best that he could expect from digitizing scans of 30 year old vellums was 3 or 4 significant digits. femr disagreed vehemently, as did everyone over there. femr said that if he could figure out a way to get more digits, he would.

I told him that sticking 10 digits onto these measurements informed anybody who knows about numbers that femr had no clue about precision of measurements.

Everything went right into the crapper from there...
LoL.
 
Here's my response:

1. The topic is restricted to the collapse of WTC 7 WTC 1, 2 & 7, the NIST report on it, and any additional information and analyses in the public domain about it.

2. Each person should make an opening statement explaining what they believe caused the collapse of WTC 7 and briefing saying why they believe that.

2b. Each person should state the (approximately) 3 strongest pieces of evidence for/against CD. "CD vs. No CD" is the heart of the debate.

3. tfk will go first after both participants make an opening statement on June 21, 2016.

4. Each person shall make no more than one post per day and cannot make another until it is responded to.

5. If a post is not responded to within a week the person not responding is considered to have forfeited his turn & the other person will proceed with his next statement.

6. Individual posts are limited to 500 approximately 1000 words. [The purpose of this debate is to inform the readers about the engineering arguments. For those who might not appreciate the technical details, extended explanations may be necessary. These explanations may be contained in a PostScript, and not count against the word count.]

7. There shall be no name calling, denigration, or defamatory language used. Only the subject material shall be discussed. If any of the above occurs the participant involved shall be considered to have forfeited the debate. Each person should bring competent engineering arguments to the debate & wear their big-boy pants. Derogatory comments will be addressed only to arguments, not to individuals.

8. The debate will end after a maximum of 50 total posts, or earlier if the participants mutually agree to an earlier termination or whenever either participant decides to stop responding.

9. Each post will discuss one principle topic. Each topic consists of 4 posts. Person A will state a topic post, Person B replies, Person A counters, then Person B counters. And that topic is closed. Move on.

Then Person B leads off the next sequence.

10. Every point that either person brings up must be addressed in some manner by the other. Both parties will do their best to stay focused on the original topic point.

__

"Are you willing to start on June 21st?"

Yes.

I only have some minor differences, concerning the ground rules, and they are re-written below

1. The debate is restricted to the collapses of WTC 1, 2 & 7 in NYC on September 11, 2001, the NIST reports on these events, and any additional objectively verifiable information and analyses in the public domain about them.

2. Each person shall make an opening statement (of no more than 500 words) explaining what they believe caused the collapse of WTC 7 and briefly stating what they believe are the (approximately) 3 strongest pieces of verifiable evidence for/against Controlled Demolition, as "Controlled Demolition vs. No Controlled Demolition" is the heart of the debate.

3. tfk will go first after both participants make an opening statement on June 21, 2016.

4. Each person shall make no more than one post per day and cannot make another until it is responded to.

5. If a post is not responded to within a week the person not responding is considered to have forfeited his turn & the other person will proceed with his next statement.

6. Individual posts are limited to 1,000 words. If it is deemed necessary to exceed that limit, justification shall be provided by the person wanting to exceed it and agreement to by the other participant received prior to doing so. This should be done by private messaging, so as not to interrupt the flow of the debate, and should be the exception rather than the rule.

7. Each post will discuss one principle topic. Each topic consists of 4 posts. Person A will state a topic post, Person B replies, Person A counters, then Person B counters, and that topic is closed. Person B then leads off the next sequence.

8. Every point that either person brings up must be addressed in some manner by the other. Both parties will do their best to stay focused on the original topic point.

9. There shall be no name calling, denigration, or defamatory language used. Each person shall bring only technical arguments to the debate. If any derogatory comments are used they shall be addressed to arguments only, not to individuals.

10. The debate will end after a maximum of 50 total posts, or earlier if the participants mutually agree to an earlier termination, or whenever either participant decides to stop responding.
 
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I only have some minor differences, concerning the ground rules, and they are re-written below

1. The debate is restricted to the collapses of WTC 1, 2 & 7 in NYC on September 11, 2001, the NIST reports on these events, and any additional objectively verifiable information and analyses in the public domain about them.

2. Each person shall make an opening statement (of no more than 500 words) explaining what they believe caused the collapse of WTC 7 and briefly stating what they believe are the (approximately) 3 strongest pieces of verifiable evidence for/against Controlled Demolition, as "Controlled Demolition vs. No Controlled Demolition" is the heart of the debate.

3. tfk will go first after both participants make an opening statement on June 21, 2016.

4. Each person shall make no more than one post per day and cannot make another until it is responded to.

5. If a post is not responded to within a week the person not responding is considered to have forfeited his turn & the other person will proceed with his next statement.

6. Individual posts are limited to 1,000 words. If it is deemed necessary to exceed that limit, justification shall be provided by the person wanting to exceed it and agreement to by the other participant received prior to doing so. This should be done by private messaging, so as not to interrupt the flow of the debate, and should be the exception rather than the rule.

7. Each post will discuss one principle topic. Each topic consists of 4 posts. Person A will state a topic post, Person B replies, Person A counters, then Person B counters, and that topic is closed. Person B then leads off the next sequence.

8. Every point that either person brings up must be addressed in some manner by the other. Both parties will do their best to stay focused on the original topic point.

9. There shall be no name calling, denigration, or defamatory language used. Each person shall bring only technical arguments to the debate. If any derogatory comments are used they shall be addressed to arguments only, not to individuals.

10. The debate will end after a maximum of 50 total posts, or earlier if the participants mutually agree to an earlier termination, or whenever either participant decides to stop responding.

Accepted.
Gird thy loins.
__

Yeah, yeah, I know.
I probably should have left Tony's loins (& mine) out of this.
Probably put the rest of you off your feed for a week...
 
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Accepted.
Gird thy loins.
__

Yeah, yeah, I know.
I probably should have left Tony's loins (& mine) out of this.
Probably put the rest of you off your feed for a week...

Okay, I will see you on June 21st at the 911 free forum.
 
All comments in the debate will be mirrored in a "no other posters", locked thread here.

You'll be able to read the entire thing here.

I highly recommend reading the "color commentary" over there, tho.
When I posted there (years ago, for only a short while before being banned), I always found it, uh, "entertaining". In a bizarre, surreal sort of way.

My very first interaction, IIRC, was commenting on a model (or "kinematic something-or-other" that they insisted was not a model ??) of the WTC 1 floor above the collapse & the floor below.

Engineers are acutely (perhaps hyper-) sensitive to "precision of measurements".

In this model, femr had taken measurements off of some drawing, and was reporting the locations of the columns with something like 10 significant digits. This sort of thing is ludicrous for way too many reasons to list.

I recommended that, even for the pristine tower before impact, the best that he could expect from digitizing scans of 30 year old vellums was 3 or 4 significant digits. femr disagreed vehemently, as did everyone over there. femr said that if he could figure out a way to get more digits, he would.

I told him that sticking 10 digits onto these measurements informed anybody who knows about numbers that femr had no clue about precision of measurements.

Everything went right into the crapper from there...
LoL.

So basicly Femr didn't understand that erection of a building, and movement of components over time cause variance in the measurements of the structures.
You simply didn't translate Engineer speak, in a way they could understand it.
 
So basicly Femr didn't understand that erection of a building, and movement of components over time cause variance in the measurements of the structures.
You simply didn't translate Engineer speak, in a way they could understand it.

I don't think he means it that way, rather that many decimal places requires the ability to measure that accurately in the first place (or even that it's relevant). If I have a 13" cake to be divided among 7 people I don't announce "OK, that'll be 1.8571428571 inches each"
 
I don't think he means it that way, rather that many decimal places requires the ability to measure that accurately in the first place (or even that it's relevant). If I have a 13" cake to be divided among 7 people I don't announce "OK, that'll be 1.8571428571 inches each"

If however you are trying to ascertain the energy values, then the more accurate the measurements the higher the accuracy and more credible the calculations will be.
 
If however you are trying to ascertain the energy values, then the more accurate the measurements the higher the accuracy and more credible the calculations will be.

Well, in another thread I calculated the energy load placed on a certain fridge if its door was left open so that all its 5° air was replaced by 25° air. The calculator told me the answer was 0.12976 kWh (or something), to 5 decimal places. The proper answer was "about 0.1 kWh" as none of my measurements was very accurate in the first place. Whether I'd measured the volume of the fridge to the cubic micron and the temperatures to 0.001° doesn't alter the fact that an answer to 5 decimal places would have been silly, and that ~0.1 kWh was a reasonable answer.

Basically I'm disagreeing with you ;) But, as ever, 'it depends'.
 
If however you are trying to ascertain the energy values, then the more accurate the measurements the higher the accuracy and more credible the calculations will be.

No, this is absolutely wrong.

You MUST understand the limitations of precision of measurements in order to understand your results. Your answers will NOT be more precise if you merely use more digits. You need more meaningful digits.

And when you do calculations based on many numbers, the errors add up. And add up far faster & to far higher errors than you can imagine.

But these errors are REAL.

A classic example is doing a "tolerance stack up" in an assembly. Even tho all the individual parts might be made with high precision, after you add up all the tolerance errors in all the components, you find out that you can't guarantee the location of some component, except within some large error.

So you need to take other measures...

In the days before everything was CNC machined, this was absolutely critical. You could tell the quality of the designer merely by looking at the tolerances on his designs.

Crappy designers (or kids) put ±0.001" tolerance on everything.
Good designers put that sort of accuracy on only the parts that required it, and looser tolerances on everything else.

You MUST recognize the total error in any calculation that results from the errors in the several measurements that make up the variables.

When I was getting my engineering degree (in 1974), if you handed in an engineering lab report without an "error analysis", you got an automatic F grade. The professor wouldn't even bother to look at the rest of it. THAT is how important awareness of the errors in experimental analysis was considered.

When you use more digits that are warranted by the measurement technique, you're simply lying to yourself about the accuracy of your answer.

There were several issues with trying to digitize data off of an tiff image of an old vellum drawing. The most important is resolution of the image scan, the fact that the vellum will change size over time, and (most important) the fact that draftsmen are careful about where they put their lines ... but not THAT careful.

Everything after the 3rd digit in his analysis was merely random numbers, which had zero relevance to reality. His 10 digit numbers were LYING to him & to any (innumerate) person who believed his analysis.

THIS was a consistent patter with his lack of understanding of the real meaning of numerical analysis. He had no feel for numbers, and it led him to making ludicrous claims about his accuracy & precision.

If you do not understand the INaccuracy of any measurement or calculation, then you have NO real feel for the number.

Listen to a beloved, renown expert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md8G_cTHa60&t=4m30s

“All important in making measurements … is the uncertainty in your measurement. Any measurement that you make, without knowledge of the uncertainty, is completely MEANINGLESS.!”
__

This is one of the serious steps backwards that happened to engineers when we switched from slide rules** (which is what I had to use when I started) to calculators.

When you use slide rules, your best estimates were limited by the accuracy of your placement of the sliding central bar & the cursor. For those that have never used one, the transparent cursors was a slight magnifying glass to help. But 3 digits of accuracy was all that you got from your calculations. And, frequently, 2, 3 or (at best) 4 digits of accuracy was the best you could get out of your measurement instruments, too.



** Please guys, I've heard several people (writers, TV, Movies, etc) refer to them as "slide rulers".

NO.!! BAD faux-geek.
 
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No, this is absolutely wrong.

You MUST understand the limitations of precision of measurements in order to understand your results. Your answers will NOT be more precise if you merely use more digits. You need more meaningful digits.

And when you do calculations based on many numbers, the errors add up. And add up far faster & to far higher errors than you can imagine.

But these errors are REAL.

A classic example is doing a "tolerance stack up" in an assembly. Even tho all the individual parts might be made with high precision, after you add up all the tolerance errors in all the components, you find out that you can't guarantee the location of some component, except within some large error.

So you need to take other measures...

In the days before everything was CNC machined, this was absolutely critical. You could tell the quality of the designer merely by looking at the tolerances on his designs.

Crappy designers (or kids) put ±0.001" tolerance on everything.
Good designers put that sort of accuracy on only the parts that required it, and looser tolerances on everything else.

You MUST recognize the total error in any calculation that results from the errors in the several measurements that make up the variables.

When I was getting my engineering degree (in 1974), if you handed in an engineering lab report without an "error analysis", you got an automatic F grade. The professor wouldn't even bother to look at the rest of it. THAT is how important awareness of the errors in experimental analysis was considered.

When you use more digits that are warranted by the measurement technique, you're simply lying to yourself about the accuracy of your answer.

There were several issues with trying to digitize data off of an tiff image of an old vellum drawing. The most important is resolution of the image scan, the fact that the vellum will change size over time, and (most important) the fact that draftsmen are careful about where they put their lines ... but not THAT careful.

Everything after the 3rd digit in his analysis was merely random numbers, which had zero relevance to reality. His 10 digit numbers were LYING to him & to any (innumerate) person who believed his analysis.

THIS was a consistent patter with his lack of understanding of the real meaning of numerical analysis. He had no feel for numbers, and it led him to making ludicrous claims about his accuracy & precision.

If you do not understand the INaccuracy of any measurement or calculation, then you have NO real feel for the number.

Listen to a beloved, renown expert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md8G_cTHa60&t=4m30s

“All important in making measurements … is the uncertainty in your measurement. Any measurement that you make, without knowledge of the uncertainty, is completely MEANINGLESS.!”
__

This is one of the serious steps backwards that happened to engineers when we switched from slide rules** (which is what I had to use when I started) to calculators.

When you use slide rules, your best estimates were limited by the accuracy of your placement of the sliding central bar & the cursor. For those that have never used one, the transparent cursors was a slight magnifying glass to help. But 3 digits of accuracy was all that you got from your calculations. And, frequently, 2, 3 or (at best) 4 digits of accuracy was the best you could get out of your measurement instruments, too.



** Please guys, I've heard several people (writers, TV, Movies, etc) refer to them as "slide rulers".

NO.!! BAD faux-geek.

Oh I remember Slide Rules but it has been a very long time since I use one and can see your point.
 
tfk, the 911 free forum asked that you try to log on to the debate thread here

http://the911forum.freeforums.org/debate-on-the-collapses-of-wtc-1-2-and-7-t768.html

to ensure you can log on and there are no glitches. Please let me know here once you have done so.


I tried to enter with my tfk username & old password, and got the message that "You have been permanently banned".

Either they'll have to unban that account, or I'll have to register with a new one.
 
When I was getting my engineering degree (in 1974), if you handed in an engineering lab report without an "error analysis", you got an automatic F grade. The professor wouldn't even bother to look at the rest of it. THAT is how important awareness of the errors in experimental analysis was considered.
.

The very same applied to physics lab in 1976. In fact the pages of error calculations usually made up the bulk of each lab report.
 
I tried to enter with my tfk username & old password, and got the message that "You have been permanently banned".

Either they'll have to unban that account, or I'll have to register with a new one.

I got the below message from OWE about it

Tony,

tfk has tried to log in but failed. Seeing that, I checked around and discovered a third thing which I hadn't done to reactivate him, and hopefully that was the problem. I found an email for him and sent a mail telling him this but I wanted to mention this in case he doesn't get it, He can try again,

Glad we checked this out instead of leaving it to chance.

Thanks
OWE


Please try again, and if it doesn't work, then a new account will have to be opened.
 

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