Dubai Address hotel fire

skyeagle409 said:
I have also told Truthers that there is no evidence of explosives, neither heard nor seen on video nor found within the rubble of the WTC buildings.
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It's something that's been oft repeated for many years. I don't like being patronizing to people but there's simply no other way to put things for people that think there was a "CD". One of the big fish "engineers" was at least honest in saying he thought there's no mechanism conceivable besides "CD". None of what he's saying is new unfortunately... i was at this too long to be in any particular mood to go into detail like I used to. Not to discourage your efforts or anything
 
Grizzly Bear said:
It's something that's been oft repeated for many years. I don't like being patronizing to people but there's simply no other way to put things for people that think there was a "CD". One of the big fish "engineers" was at least honest in saying he thought there's no mechanism conceivable besides "CD". None of what he's saying is new unfortunately... i was at this too long to be in any particular mood to go into detail like I used to. Not to discourage your efforts or anything
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Who was the so-called "big fish engineer?"
 
Grizzly Bear said:
One of the big fish "engineers" was at least honest in saying he thought ...
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skyeagle409 said:
Who was the so-called "big fish engineer?"
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The shaded and underlined "was a least honest" is a "hot link" which should respond to the appropriate mouse/touch pad action on your machine. Left click for standard two or more button rodentia.

He was referring to Tony Szamboti - and therefore it was irony or sarcasm given Grizzly's record for clear thinking level-headedness.
 
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Tony szamboti was the "big fish" i responded to. One of the few on the truther end that i usually go into any depth with if we get into discussions. That post i linked to more or less summed up the reason i dont engage like i used to. Literally says he excluded any possibility ever that any steel structure could collapse... ever due to fire. That response is so sweeping that figuring out where to begin on the technical "wrongs" is extremely difficult because there is literally no argument on technical grounds that will be accepted.

When you get a response like that after 7 or 8 years of debating it kinda hits the question of "why bother" although sometimes i still hop into these threads with a mindset to explain stuff. Like if you want me to go into anything I can still do it to clarify stuff. The general thread flooding of snark usually also turns me off. Much as I otherwise "agree" that truther arguments are generally insane I find it best to explain the issues and try to be civil.
 
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Grizzly Bear said:
Tony szamboti was the "big fish" i responded to. One of the few on the truther end that i usually go into any depth with if we get into discussions. That post i linked to more or less summed up the reason i dont engage like i used to. Literally says he excluded any possibility ever that any steel structure could collapse... ever due to fire.
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Tony should take a look at reality because I know of steel structures that have collapsed due to fire alone. In Mexico City, a 21-story steel frame building collapsed during an earthquake.

There are those who continue to claim that explosives were placed in the WTC buildings and at the Pentagon, but what if United 93 had slammed into the Capitol Building and causing it to collapse? No doubt there would be claims that explosives were placed within the Capitol Building as well.
 
FalseFlag said:
Link?
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Totally Collapsed 21-Story Steel Frame Office Building

http://www.johnmartin.com/earthquakes/eqshow/647003_18.htm


Proof?
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Truthers continue to claim that WTC 1, WTC 2, and WTC 7 were taken down by CD without evidence, and some Truthers have claimed that the Pentagon was struck by a cruise missile without evidence, but what about the U.S. Capitol Building, the likely target of United 93? Chances are, if the Capitol Building was struck by United 93 and collapsed, no doubt that Truthers would have claimed that explosives were responsible.
 
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ozeco41 said:
The shaded and underlined "was a least honest" is a "hot link" which should respond to the appropriate mouse/touch pad action on your machine. Left click for standard two or more button rodentia.

He was referring to Tony Szamboti - and therefore it was irony or sarcasm given Grizzly's record for clear thinking level-headedness.
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Somewhat both :3

Or rather i think he was "honest" in fact. He answered at the time the way I figured he thought the entire time. Nothing, and I mean nothing, no debate, not technical explanations, or otherwise will ever convince him that anything but "CD" did the buildings in. The absolute "never" is a final answer. My question then follows. Is this belief common among those perpetuating the "CD" claim? Do they ALL exclude the ever possibility that fire could lead to a complete collapse? My estimation is that belief is most definitely shared in some form or another. Though for some it just may not be "absolute", but approximately so

Does not apply to objective fence sitters, whoever they may be
 
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FalseFlag said:
OK. How does the collapse in the picture compare and contrast with the collapses of WTC1, 2 and 7?
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I'm not entirely sure what the link is between what I posted about regarding TS's argument and that building but it's apples to oranges in both yours and his cases. One - and maybe I'm not understanding sky eagles' reason - the building collapsed as a result of an earthquake not strictly initiation by fire. Two, you are trying to play "got'ya" with "how much is left intact" nope... not relevant once you consider completely different design strategies involved. Unlike skyeagles' case, which may be a misunderstanding, your case is another that misses several layers of logical inference
 
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FalseFlag said:
OK. How does the collapse in the picture compare and contrast with the collapses of WTC1, 2 and 7?
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I have read claims that only explosives can cause the collapse of steel frame buildings, but I wanted to show that is not the case. Fire can collapse steel frame buildings if their fire protection is breached.


Photo 1

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/sites/default/files/twisted_steel(1).jpg


Photo 2

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ohscogs/ShelbyPhotos/ost7fire.jpg


Photo 3

https://i0.wp.com/i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu347/911conspiracytv/horseshoe_steel.jpg


Photo 4

http://images.nationalgeographic.co...emory-remains-twisted-steel_37809_600x450.jpg


Photo 5

http://www.beachymon.com/photo/woodsteelfire.jpg


Fire was responsible for the internal collapse of WTC 5

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/124474550e45019258.jpg


Kader Toy Factory Fire

At about 4pm on May 10th, 1993, a small fire was discovered on the first floor of part of the E-shaped building. Workers were instructed to keep working as the fire was thought to be minor. The fire alarm in this building did not sound. The building was reinforced with un-insulated steel girders which quickly weakened and collapsed.

The Kader buildings,...collapsed relatively early in the fire because their structural steel supports lacked the fireproofing that would have allowed them to maintain their strength when exposed to high temperatures. A post-fire review of the debris at the Kader site showed no indication that any of the steel members had been fireproofed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kader_Toy_Factory_fire
 
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Add the Windsor building in Madrid to your repertory :)

windsor-antes.jpg
windsor-despues.jpg


The core was steel-reinforced concrete, and the perimeter was steel. The perimeter collapsed up to half the building, and the core remained standing. The collapse didn't progress all the way to the ground, in part because thanks to being still attached to the core, which resisted without problems, the floors collapsed slowly (some slabs are still seen hanging).

http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/xfiles/cache/slide0008_image013.jpg
 
pgimeno said:
Add the Windsor building in Madrid to your repertory :)

[qimg]http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/xfiles/11-s/windsor-antes.jpg[/qimg] [qimg]http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/xfiles/11-s/windsor-despues.jpg[/qimg]

The core was steel-reinforced concrete, and the perimeter was steel. The perimeter collapsed up to half the building, and the core remained standing. The collapse didn't progress all the way to the ground, in part because thanks to being still attached to the core, which resisted without problems, the floors collapsed slowly (some slabs are still seen hanging).

http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/xfiles/cache/slide0008_image013.jpg
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I have also used the Windsor Building as an example of what fire will do to exposed steel structures.

The fire destroyed the outer steel structure of the building, which can be seen lying on the upper ledge. The concrete core prevented further collapse of the building as well.
 
FalseFlag said:
I see CD. Why? Because that is what happened. It's there. The video is proof. Anyone with two eyes can see what is there. It takes denial, delusions, cognitive dissonance, and fraud to block it all out.
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You WANT to see CD. Rational individuals don't see a CD. I've NEVER seen a CD that resembled the collapse of 7WTC.

Your argument by assertion means nothing.
 
pgimeno said:
Add the Windsor building in Madrid to your repertory :)

[qimg]http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/xfiles/11-s/windsor-antes.jpg[/qimg] [qimg]http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/xfiles/11-s/windsor-despues.jpg[/qimg]

The core was steel-reinforced concrete, and the perimeter was steel. The perimeter collapsed up to half the building, and the core remained standing. The collapse didn't progress all the way to the ground, in part because thanks to being still attached to the core, which resisted without problems, the floors collapsed slowly (some slabs are still seen hanging).

http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/xfiles/cache/slide0008_image013.jpg
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You post this on your own, and yet you ignore the obvious problems it presents to skeptics. Bold move.
 
FalseFlag said:
Proof?

The only thing I want to see is a new, independent investigation.

Please help.

Go here - www.ae911truth.org.
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Just to let you know that AE911truth has been discredited.


The Shaky Moral Foundation that AE911Truth is Built Upon

We reported about Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth (ae911truth.org) in episode 16 of our audio reports. We worked for them as their systems administrators for almost two years. As a high-level administrator inside the organization, I witnessed a stunning degree of mismanagement and I was privy to everything.

Our tendency to act as old fashioned journalists in exposing corruption eventually got us completely banned from the organization. Now, discussions about us are officially discouraged by the management of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, as if we were the targets of a cult shunning.

The excuse given to the lower level members of AE911truth for the shunning was the fact that we had wisely begun a process of "pulling the plug" on their main production server immediately after Justin Keogh hijacked it, after which he promptly began locking-out all of the valid users. Pulling "the plug" would have been the most responsible action for any decent systems administrator in this given scenario, but we were personally ordered to stand down by Richard Gage, in order to appease that especially destructive member of the organization at all cost, even if it meant that a year of our (paid) work in building their custom server would be utterly destroyed. This led to the shouting conversations with Richard that resulted in our resignations. Justin Keogh was promoted by Richard Gage for trashing the infrastructure, causing our resignations and quite a few others, and for producing the current sad state of ae911truth's networking capabilities, and we are not even going to mention "the security" (or lack of) for legal reasons. The result is that they have spent a fortune managing a web system that can barely handle even light traffic, so they will find themselves in real trouble if they are ever targeted for a coordinated attack.

http://healthwyze.org/tidbits/590-the-shaky-moral-foundation-that-ae911truth-is-built-upon
 
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FalseFlag said:
You post this on your own, and yet you ignore the obvious problems it presents to skeptics. Bold move.
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Actually, the Windsor Building fire had proved a point, and that is, fire can weaken exposed steel structures to the point of failure.

Its outer steel structure had collapsed due to fire alone, leaving the concrete core exposed.
 
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