Brexit: the referendum

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I don't think they're said it directly as a policy statement, but certainly individuals have said things along the lines of, "That's money we could be spending on the NHS" without any further qualification. Certainly it's rare to hear them saying, "we could be spending it on X, Y, or Z."

The biggest problem, though, if that while it sounds like a lot of money to many people, it's absolutely dwarfed by actual government spending, even in specific areas like the NHS. Brexiters have pushed the line that certain services are suffering because we send a certain amount of money to the EU (ignoring the reverse benefits), and they get away with it because most people don't know what's already spend on those same services.

It's also clever use of the word 'could' when the word they really are looking for is 'wouldn't.

Not one of the people championing Brexit is proposing actually increasing NHS funding as far as I can see. More likely would be frittered away in tax cuts for the rich.

 

[CapelDodger]

Not one of the people championing Brexit is proposing actually increasing NHS funding as far as I can see. More likely would be frittered away in tax cuts for the rich.

Or re-conquering India, which won't come cheap.

I'm assuming that's what "Take Back Control" refers to. It's what first made Britain Great, after all.

 

[SusanB-M1]

[/

The Don said:
What is the EU doing that prevents us exporting to non-EU markets ?

I have not yet heard a clear, direct answer to that question.
On the World At One just now, Alan Johnson was answering questions - I do so hope plenty of people were listening, actually listening, to his answers instead of, as quite a few of the callers did, just taking the opportunity to state their own single, particular issue to moan about.

 

[Henri McPhee]

This "EU austerity" is what the Socialist Workers are pushing up in Queen Street, and I'd love to know what it means. I did ask but got no sensible reply.

Osborne's austerity I understand, and German austerity, and the Greek thing, but what on Earth does the EU have to do with it?

On the pension age, I was informed long ago that my retirement age had gone up to 66 and would go no higher. I don't resent it at all.

The European Commission decides the policy and is the executive, and that's why Thatcher said No No No all those years ago. As an old economics book said in the 1920's "Surely it is evident that international debts must be dealt with on a basis which will not interfere with international trade."

 

[gypsyjackson]

The European Commission decides the policy and is the executive, and that's why Thatcher said No No No all those years ago. As an old economics book said in the 1920's "Surely it is evident that international debts must be dealt with on a basis which will not interfere with international trade."

No, it doesn't decide the policy. That's why member states have different policies on austerity. What did Thatcher say no to which specifically relates to this point?

And for good measure, which economics book?

 

[Mid]

iirc "full time employment" also included Uni degrees and other stuff (quite a joke in my case) which counted as 3 years for Uni and 1 for teacher training.

If you're a student you should be classed as economically inactive not full time employed so you wouldn't appear in unemployment stats either

 

[ComfySlippers]

If you're a student you should be classed as economically inactive not full time employed so you wouldn't appear in unemployment stats either

It was proper employment where you are paying NI.

I forget if it asked for your NI number, but the "number of further years of full time employment required" was eerily accurate, and depressing.

Maybe that's why they removed that particular calculator.

 

[Garrison]

Hyperbole.
We are too big an economy for countries not to do trade deals should we exit the EU.

It's not can we do deals, its how long will it take, and what will the terms be? A deal with the EU means getting all the remaining members to sign up, some of them don't do much trade with us but do benefit from the free movement of people, why are those countries going to abandon that principle to give us a sweet deal?

As for the US and China, neither of them is going to be in tearing hurry, and any deals are going to be on their terms not ours.

 

[CapelDodger]

The European Commission decides the policy and is the executive, and that's why Thatcher said No No No all those years ago. As an old economics book said in the 1920's "Surely it is evident that international debts must be dealt with on a basis which will not interfere with international trade."

Still I lack a sensible reply to the question "What is EU austerity?". If you know please share.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Tonights ITV debate and Question Time were a bit of a shambles.

Same old tired talking points from both sides.

I was so sad to hear that immigration has made it difficult for Allison Pearson to find a doctor, a school or a house in her Cambridgeshire village that the Welsh ****wit moved to a few years ago.

Perhaps if she paid her tax she wouldn't have such difficulties and HMRC wouldn't have had to bankrupt her? How much does a bankrupt imbecile make from appearing on QT to sneer at the possibility of Scottish independence these days?

A woman the word **** was designed for.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

European wines may not be the best sellers, but all the best cellars are filled with European wine.

Maybe so but for the average wine drinker who is looking for a great wine for a reasonable price the New World has a lot to offer, there are some exceptional vineyards producing amazing, exciting wines at very reasonable prices. 99% of wine is made to be drunk within 5 years, most people don't have a cellar, I encourage my customers to try a range of wines from Europe and further afield and buy the ones they like most, to drink not to store in a cellar and look at.

 

[MikeG]

The individual winners, in my view, from the EU debate on ITV last night were Gisella Stuart, (calm, sensible, polite throughout) and Boris (better than expected). Amber Rudd got angry and emotional every time she spoke. Andrea Leadson was accident prone but almost anonymous. The big losers? Angela Eagle. What a miserable, angry, shouty, pointy person she proved to be. Finally the insufferable whiny Nicola Sturgeon with her head-nodding and voice-raising to emphasise when she wanted applause, and her utter inability to finish on time. The presenter should have done better with keeping them on subject, and keeping them to time. The whole thing was pure torture.

 

[Lothian]

The individual winners, in my view, from the EU debate on ITV last night were Gisella Stuart, (calm, sensible, polite throughout) and Boris (better than expected). Amber Rudd got angry and emotional every time she spoke. Andrea Leadson was accident prone but almost anonymous. The big losers? Angela Eagle. What a miserable, angry, shouty, pointy person she proved to be. Finally the insufferable whiny Nicola Sturgeon with her head-nodding and voice-raising to emphasise when she wanted applause, and her utter inability to finish on time. The presenter should have done better with keeping them on subject, and keeping them to time. The whole thing was pure torture.

I didn't watch it but I suspect that most people hear what they want to hear and their opinion on the performances matches their preconceptions.

Robert Peston's view was "It was a very slick performance from Nicola Sturgeon, she is obviously a top class politician"

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I guess it's horses for courses. Almost all of the "decent" wine I buy (£50 a bottle and more) is European. That said I probably don't buy more than a couple of dozen bottles at that price every year (special occasions, presents and the like).

OTOH a large proportion of our daily swill comes from outside the E.U., the exception being if I've recently been to France and been able to pick up a few cases of €10 claret for general consumption. If Brexit were to happen I cannot see the price of non-E.U. wines go down, indeed the prices can go up because the competition from the E.U. will be less keen.

To be honest I don't see the prices of either EU or Non-public wines changing significantly, just the end of the booze cruise, a round trip to Calais to fill the car is a lot cheaper than the import duty we pay (and have to figure into the price).

 

[Lothian]

To be honest I don't see the prices of either EU or Non-public wines changing significantly, just the end of the booze cruise, a round trip to Calais to fill the car is a lot cheaper than the import duty we pay (and have to figure into the price).

French wine will be 20% cheaper. Currently you pay French VAT when you buy wine there. If a non EU citizen takes goods bought in the EU out they get the VAT paid refunded. You have probably seen the VAT refund signs at UK international airports.

This will still be the case even we manage to arrange tariff free trade. If we are going to "reclaim Sovereignty" and insist that the ECJ is not the supreme court and that our courts can ignore it, we will need to remove ourselves from the European VAT system. This will make all foreign bought goods around 20% cheaper

Of course we could level the playing field by collecting VAT on import. This would leave the price the same as now but I hate to think what that would do to queue times. Obviously deciding to collect duty on top of VAT would make it far more expensive and kill the boose cruise altogether.

So to conclude, it could be cheaper, the same or more expensive. Obviously once the referendum debate starts properly the leave side will explain what trade deal we will get with Europe and what tax, duty and tariffs will apply.

 

[ohms]

You would also need to factor in the expected hit the pound will take against the euro which will make imports more expensive, at least in the short term. How much and for how long is unkown.

 

[Information Analyst]

Tonights ITV debate and Question Time were a bit of a shambles.

Same old tired talking points from both sides.

I was so sad to hear that immigration has made it difficult for Allison Pearson to find a doctor, a school or a house in her Cambridgeshire village that the Welsh ****wit moved to a few years ago.

Perhaps if she paid her tax she wouldn't have such difficulties and HMRC wouldn't have had to bankrupt her? How much does a bankrupt imbecile make from appearing on QT to sneer at the possibility of Scottish independence these days?

A woman the word **** was designed for.

I daresay it's a lot more than the £100 I was going to get for appearance in a low-budget daytime BBC documentary (until I experience my own "W1A moment"). In Pearson's case, one wonder how someone like her can be in receipt of so much money, yet still manage to piss it all up the wall.

 

[Information Analyst]

French wine will be 20% cheaper. Currently you pay French VAT when you buy wine there. If a non EU citizen takes goods bought in the EU out they get the VAT paid refunded. You have probably seen the VAT refund signs at UK international airports.

This will still be the case even we manage to arrange tariff free trade. If we are going to "reclaim Sovereignty" and insist that the ECJ is not the supreme court and that our courts can ignore it, we will need to remove ourselves from the European VAT system. This will make all foreign bought goods around 20% cheaper

Of course we could level the playing field by collecting VAT on import. This would leave the price the same as now but I hate to think what that would do to queue times. Obviously deciding to collect duty on top of VAT would make it far more expensive and kill the boose cruise altogether.

So to conclude, it could be cheaper, the same or more expensive. Obviously once the referendum debate starts properly the leave side will explain what trade deal we will get with Europe and what tax, duty and tariffs will apply.

We will also find anything costign more than £15 by mail order from the EU being hit for VAT and Royal Mail's £8 "handling fee."

 

[The Don]

French wine will be 20% cheaper. Currently you pay French VAT when you buy wine there. If a non EU citizen takes goods bought in the EU out they get the VAT paid refunded. You have probably seen the VAT refund signs at UK international airports.

At the moment, the amount of wine I can buy is effectively uncapped and I pay French duty on it.

In the future it may be a wee bit cheaper but I'll only be able to bring a few bottles back with me.

It will likely signal the end of the legal booze cruise because the savings on a couple of bottles of wine or a bottle of spirits per person won't cover the costs in the same way that the £2+ a bottle for 120 bottles does right now.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The individual winners, in my view, from the EU debate on ITV last night were Gisella Stuart, (calm, sensible, polite throughout) and Boris (better than expected). Amber Rudd got angry and emotional every time she spoke. Andrea Leadson was accident prone but almost anonymous. The big losers? Angela Eagle. What a miserable, angry, shouty, pointy person she proved to be. Finally the insufferable whiny Nicola Sturgeon with her head-nodding and voice-raising to emphasise when she wanted applause, and her utter inability to finish on time. The presenter should have done better with keeping them on subject, and keeping them to time. The whole thing was pure torture.

Funny I thought Gisella Stuart was a shambles and Nicola did well. And I thought Amber Rudd was alright for a Tory.

It was obvious that Nicola and Bojo were the most accomplished communicators and comfortable in the setting. Eagle was terrible in that regard.

I'm very very tired of seeing immigrants and descendants of immigrants telling us how bad immigration is now and I'm glad Eddie Izzard made that point last night although his overall performance was haphazard and annoying to say the least.