Brexit: the referendum

[CapelDodger]

Anything south of the Humber

You're far enough away for us to have a common enemy. Remember Hotspur and Glyndower. Not to mention the Miners Strike ...

It's the Home Counties we all have it in for, lets face it. They call themselves the English, but all the other bits of England think differently.

 

[CapelDodger]

The problem with democracy is that a substantial percentage of voters lack the critical thinking capacity to make a rational choice, and consequently make descisions based on soundbites and emotions.

Indeed. Universal suffrage turns what should be informed consideration of arguments into a circus.

Identifying the problem is the easy part, of course, but it's undeniably a problem.

 

[welshdean]

Foreign starts just after Chepstow, and I have my doubts about Newport.

I'd say the cut-off point was St Mellons' roundabout!

 

[Craig B]

Indeed. Universal suffrage turns what should be informed consideration of arguments into a circus.

You've forgotten this valuable comment.

Democracy is a flawed system of governance. The only thing speaking in it's favor is the fact all other systems of governance that we know of are even more flawed.

In reality, oligarchies are even more of a "circus", as the Parliamentary system in Britain prior to the Reform Acts makes very clear; and tyranny isn't merely a circus, but a madhouse, most of the time.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Indeed. Universal suffrage turns what should be informed consideration of arguments into a circus.

Identifying the problem is the easy part, of course, but it's undeniably a problem.

Don't get me wrong, I should have mentioned the Tees to the North and the Pennines to the West,

 

[The Don]

I'd say the cut-off point was St Mellons' roundabout!

Although presumably in your case, foreign is east of said location

 

[Garrison]

Indeed. Universal suffrage turns what should be informed consideration of arguments into a circus.

Identifying the problem is the easy part, of course, but it's undeniably a problem.

I think the real problem here is that the governing party, who would be expected to set policy, are so hopelessly split on the EU that they abrogated their responsibilities and set up the referendum. The only consolation is that as far as putting an end to the Tory splits go it's failed miserably.

 

[welshdean]

Although presumably in your case, foreign is east of said location

Precisely, although with Capel Dodger being a Cardiffian, I suspect he's of the same mind.

I might allow Wentloog Rd to stay though, I haven't been there for years but there used to be some nice pubs down there.

(@ Capel Dodger, I'm Llanrumney born & bred, which part of the great city are you from?)

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Indeed. Universal suffrage turns what should be informed consideration of arguments into a circus.

Identifying the problem is the easy part, of course, but it's undeniably a problem.

I'm trying to stay out of the thread and just lurk, but if I might I'd like to ask for clarification. Are you sincere about the above? If you answer in the affirmative, I'd like to know who might set criteria for deciding who votes and who does not, and what those might be? To stay on topic, do your reservations refer to this particular referendum, or are they of a more general concern?

 

[SusanB-M1]

The more I see of the two camps, the more I see the nutjobs, the xenophobes, and the closet (and open) racists aligning with the Leave side. I'd say that should give normal people pause for thought before supporting that side.

Disclosure:

I know the UKIP candidate for the neighboring constituency and he isn't any of the above, but he does admit to being utterly number blind. My MP is also on the Leave side and isn't any of the above, either. He's a pretty good constituency MP.

Same here. Most unfortunately, many of the old people living around here are for exiting - they seem to have a cloud-cuckoo land idea that, magically, some golden age will suddenly appear and transform the UK into a perfect land. well, I'm not buying any of the summer Draw raffle tickets this year!

 

[zooterkin]

Bugger, I've just realised I will probably be out of the country on the day of the referendum, and it's too late to get a postal vote. Any 'Leave' voters want to buddy-up?

 

[CapelDodger]

Precisely, although with Capel Dodger being a Cardiffian, I suspect he's of the same mind.

Indeed. Chepstow is as far as my bus-pass gets me, after that all is mystery. St Mellons I prefer not to think about.

(@ Capel Dodger, I'm Llanrumney born & bred, which part of the great city are you from?)

Splott. There, I've said it.

If the vote is for Leave it'll be time to seriously re-consider Wales's place in the UK, IMO. Which will mean getting rid of the UKIP carpet-baggers we've bizarrely acquired recently. Consider me available for that particular action.

 

[CapelDodger]

Bugger, I've just realised I will probably be out of the country on the day of the referendum, and it's too late to get a postal vote. Any 'Leave' voters want to buddy-up?

Sorry, I'm for Remain. My mother's for Leave so we've made a "pairing" arrangement and won't vote; that way neither of us has to associate with either camp.

This whole affair has been most undedifying.

 

[CapelDodger]

I'm trying to stay out of the thread and just lurk, but if I might I'd like to ask for clarification. Are you sincere about the above?

I am.

If you answer in the affirmative, I'd like to know who might set criteria for deciding who votes and who does not, and what those might be?

Me too. It's a conundrum, isn't it?

To stay on topic, do your reservations refer to this particular referendum, or are they of a more general concern?

It's general. This referendum is just a particularly stark illustration of the problem.

 

[CapelDodger]

I think the real problem here is that the governing party, who would be expected to set policy, are so hopelessly split on the EU that they abrogated their responsibilities and set up the referendum. The only consolation is that as far as putting an end to the Tory splits go it's failed miserably.

Watching the Tories at each other's throats again on this issue has been the only consolation. That and the fact they're too busy just now to do as much real harm as they'd wish.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Vote to leave or get sexualy assaulted says Farage

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36455766

Nigel Farage has been accused of "blatant scaremongering" by a fellow Leave campaigner for suggesting there could be a risk of sex attacks on women by migrants if Britain stays in the EU.

UKIP's leader told the Sunday Telegraph the risk of attacks like those in Cologne, Germany, would be "the nuclear bomb" of the referendum campaign.

 

[The Don]

Watching the Tories at each other's throats again on this issue has been the only consolation. That and the fact they're too busy just now to do as much real harm as they'd wish.

Boris in particular has been amusing over the past couple of days. He's been pulled up by Major for telling porkies and by way of a Gish gallop he has decided that it's no longer OK to criticise the other campaign for their lies and instead focus on the issues.

He then went on to tell some more outrageous porkies.

 

[GlennB]

Latest Guradian poll now has "leave" with a 3 point lead, and the £ is losing value against major currencies.

Nice one, Dave. ffs

 

[Hlafordlaes]

... Me too. It's a conundrum, isn't it?

It's general. This referendum is just a particularly stark illustration of the problem.

Calling it a conundrum and the referendum a stark illustration of "the problem" indicate you have specific thoughts on universal suffrage that you fail to spell out. Care to support this position? To not derail here, perhaps you could make the argument in the thread on skeptical due diligence and human rights. I'd be interested to hear how you argue your position.

 

[Henri McPhee]

They had a clip on TV yesterday of a discussion between Roy Jenkins and the Euroskeptic Tony Benn just before the 1975 EU referendum, or EEC as it then was. Roy Jenkins said that the EU was a customs union, and that monetary and political union was far away. Roy Jenkins made the point that the chemical industry was all for a competitive common market. ICI no longer exists.

The trouble is that monetary and political union is not quite so far away now even though the remainers don't make much noise about joining the Euro currency. In those days the UK had an independent judiciary. Cadburys moved to Poland under EU and European Commission rule.

The problem I have with the Brexiteers is that they are only interested in cutting public expenditure to reduce the National Debt, and for tax cuts for the rich. That's unfair on single mothers who are being offered workhouse discipline, and for people who need Social Security, and even the unemployed. Also for people who are now being promised charges, and having to pay insurance, for tonsil and hip operations and accidents, as well as chronic illnesses.