Suddenly, A Flat Earther Appears!

If they have sufficient intellectual curiosity to measure distances on a map, they wouldn't be flat earthers.

They would pay just enough attention to the diskworld map to say, "see, it's possible" and ignore any of the implications of that being the actual shape of the Earth.

One of the reasons that arguments against flat earth fail is that people try to carry the thought all the way through, but the believer isn't interested in doing that. He's just interested in just barely enough evidence that he can dismiss everything else that doesn't fit his worldview. That's why it's really hard to argue against flat earthers, or creationists, and possibly even some other strongly entrenched, but irrational, beliefs. If the people were willing to pay that much attention to detail, they wouldn't hold the beliefs in the first place.
 
At quantum level as well as as relativistic speeds, our near great masses, they do. They assume fixed frame of references to all spectators , infinite speed of causality, etc
Newtonian physics doesn't cover those situations. Other theories do, and they also incorporate Newtonian physics without substantially changing it in reference frames that it is suitable to describe.

Newtonian physics isn't wrong, it is incomplete. In those arenas where it applies, it is still perfectly accurate. Answers that were previously correct using Newtonian equations did not suddenly become wrong when Einsteinian equations became available. Newtonian gravity is simply a special case of General Relativity, which applies at the medium scale.

You can fly a spacecraft to another planet using only Newtonian equations. If you want to run a GPS satellite system, Newtonian equations aren't precise enough and you have to incorporate Einsteinian equations, which are more precise.
 
nobody said they are wrong.

the quotes were regarding them contradicting what is known to be real. And at quantum and relativistic levels as well as huge distances, they DO "contradict" what is known to be real.
 
Breaking news: The earth must be flat, because if it was a gigantic sphere every time you move in any direction you would be going downhill! ;)
 
nobody said they are wrong.

the quotes were regarding them contradicting what is known to be real.
That's pretty much the definition of "wrong".

And at quantum and relativistic levels as well as huge distances, they DO "contradict" what is known to be real.
I'll grant you that Newton's stated assumption that the influence of gravity travels instantaneously is wrong. But that's not the same thing. The claim was that "Newton's theory of physics... contradicts what is known to be real", not that "Newton's theory of the speed of the transmission of the influence of gravity" did. Newton didn't even provide an explanation for how gravity is transmitted, so how can a non-existent explanation even be said to be wrong?
 
I think there is a very good argument (well, there is hundreds, but this one, Flat Earther's will have an even more difficult time to explain) against Flat Earth.


Look at Australia and Brazil and South Africa, on their stupid flat map.

Now, put an Australian, a Brazilian and a South African, all using a compass and looking south, which on flat Earth is the opposite of the "center" of the map.

While looking north, all of them are looking towards the center of map and could see the same "star" (north star), when looking South, they look at different directions.

An Australian and a Brazilian look at exactly opposite directions.


How can an Australian, a Brazilian and a South African, while looking at such different directions, ALL SEE THE SOUTHERN CROSS when looking south?
 
How can an Australian, a Brazilian and a South African, while looking at such different directions, ALL SEE THE SOUTHERN CROSS when looking south?

They can't all see the Southern Cross at the same time. They each see the Southern Cross as the sky rotates into a position where they can see it.
 
How can an Australian, a Brazilian and a South African, while looking at such different directions, ALL SEE THE SOUTHERN CROSS when looking south?

Whereas someone living in the Northern Hemisphere can see the circumpolar stars but has to travel south for thousands of miles to see the Southern Cross. If the Earth were flat, wouldn't everyone be able to see the same set of stars at some time of the year without leaving home.
 
They can't all see the Southern Cross at the same time. They each see the Southern Cross as the sky rotates into a position where they can see it.

They can't all see it all the time, but they can probably find times when two of them can see it simultaneously so they can compare compass bearings. And all the time they can see it, they can note that the constellation seems to rotate around sigma octantis, which always remains about 1° off due South of them, (rather than whizzing off Westward performing laps of the flat Earth).
 
Is the sky a parallel flat disc above us, or is it a dome? Or is it empty space like in the normal model? Why would someone on a flat disc not be able to see the entire sky just like anyone else on the flat disc? Surely someone near the edge of the disc would be able to see Polaris just like someone near the centre.

For that matter, if I stand on a mountain on a flat earth, why can't I see the entire world?
 
Is the sky a parallel flat disc above us, or is it a dome? Or is it empty space like in the normal model? Why would someone on a flat disc not be able to see the entire sky just like anyone else on the flat disc? Surely someone near the edge of the disc would be able to see Polaris just like someone near the centre.

For that matter, if I stand on a mountain on a flat earth, why can't I see the entire world?

Because you are not Jesus?

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Matthew 4:8

:confused:
 
In most flat Earth models, what objects are visible is limited by distance. You can't see Polaris in from near the rim of the disk because Polaris is over the center of the disk - very far away.
 
In most flat Earth models, what objects are visible is limited by distance. You can't see Polaris in from near the rim of the disk because Polaris is over the center of the disk - very far away.

What one sees from a flat earth depends on how one models the sky. If it is treated as a hemispherical dome, the view from the North Pole will be identical to that of the real sky. As one travels south on a flat earth the distance to Polaris will increase and its altitude will decrease. On reaching the "South Pole" its distance will have increased by a factor of root two so it will be slightly dimmer. Its altitude will reach 45 degrees but that's it, Polaris never vanishes.
On a spherical earth the altitude of Polaris will steadily decrease with little change in brightness until one reaches a point halfway to the South Pole. There its altitude will reach zero and it will suddenly disappear. I'm sure there are more elaborate sky models that can explain away this discrepancy.
 
Effectively yes, because your eyes have a maximum resolution. Stuff far enough away along the plane will all be bunched up in a small area which will look like a line at just below eye level.
 
I think there is a very good argument (well, there is hundreds, but this one, Flat Earther's will have an even more difficult time to explain) against Flat Earth.


Look at Australia and Brazil and South Africa, on their stupid flat map.

Now, put an Australian, a Brazilian and a South African, all using a compass and looking south, which on flat Earth is the opposite of the "center" of the map.

While looking north, all of them are looking towards the center of map and could see the same "star" (north star), when looking South, they look at different directions.

An Australian and a Brazilian look at exactly opposite directions.


How can an Australian, a Brazilian and a South African, while looking at such different directions, ALL SEE THE SOUTHERN CROSS when looking south?

They can't all see the Southern Cross at the same time. They each see the Southern Cross as the sky rotates into a position where they can see it.

On the face of it, your reply explains the problem. But of course it doesn't. If this were the case, the observer at each of these points would see the stars approaching similar to how you would view objects on a carousel.

This video explains it perfectly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4CPL4mcpDc
 
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I think there is a very good argument (well, there is hundreds, but this one, Flat Earther's will have an even more difficult time to explain) against Flat Earth.


Look at Australia and Brazil and South Africa, on their stupid flat map.

Now, put an Australian, a Brazilian and a South African, all using a compass and looking south, which on flat Earth is the opposite of the "center" of the map.

While looking north, all of them are looking towards the center of map and could see the same "star" (north star), when looking South, they look at different directions.

An Australian and a Brazilian look at exactly opposite directions.


How can an Australian, a Brazilian and a South African, while looking at such different directions, ALL SEE THE SOUTHERN CROSS when looking south?


I've been thinking about this, trying to come up with why this isn't a good argument.

Of course, logically, it's a perfectly good argument. Of course it is correct. Unfortunately, it would persuade no one, because the people it is aimed at do not think scientifically. They aren't interested in testing their theories to see if they are correct. They have read the Bible. They know it is right. From there, they want to seek confirmation of their correct theory. If someone presents a logical argument, and they cannot refute it, they will attribute their inability to refute it to their own lack of knowledge of "unimportant" things, or maybe to the conspiracy that keeps "the truth" away from them.

What I mean is, the reaction from a flat earther to that argument is likely to be something along the lines of, "Well, I'm not sure about that. I'm not some great math guy who can figure it all out. I just know that flat Earth scientists have figured it out exactly, but the scientific establishment won't publish their papers."

So, I've been trying to figure out what would be a good argument that might actually convince them. First, I conclude that the argument has to somehow be about people, not data. You can't argue stars and measurements and geometry with these people. The most powerful argument would be testimonial from someone they respect, like an athlete, entertainer, or preacher, but only ones that have somehow escaped the influence of the Whore of Babylon, and those are hard to come by.

Here's the best I could come up with, and, frankly, it is not very good.

Note to the flat earther that you can look up on a website, and determine the time of the next eclipse visible in your area. They can publish those dates years in advance. They are confident. They know it, and they are always right. They never make a mistake about this stuff. Furthermore, when they do that sort of thing, they say that they have to use a round Earth model in their calculations, and it works. How could that be, if the Earth were flat?

What this does is translate this out of the world of geometry into the world of people. You aren't asking the flat-earther to describe the geometry of eclipses. You are asking him how scientists are able to predict eclipses. They say that they are using a round Earth to do it. Also, the phenomenon in question, the eclipse, is something the flat Earther can see himself. A television program can be faked, but the eclipse happens right before his own eyes. The scientists say that they knew it would happen because the Earth is round. Are they lying?

It's hard to imagine any argument working against an adult who believes the Earth is flat, but something along those lines, which turns it into an argument about people instead of geometry has some hope. Moreover, the same issue is encountered dealing with issues more important than the flat Earth believers. The arguments about a young Earth versus old Earth have to be approached the same way.
 
Were I a flat earther I would probably counter that you can get correct results from an incorrect model. I'd claim that people were predicting planetary movements using a geocentric model before they switched to a heliocentric model and plainly both of those cannot be correct.
 

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