The Brexit campaign is all about xenophobia and only about xenophobia. Xenophobes and their extremist cousins - racists - are always intent on pursuing their prejudices to the exclusion of all economic considerations. Xenophobia is a mania; it is not the result of rational calculation.It seems that the argument seems to be coming down to immigration. It seems that it's more important to be able to exclude immigrants than it is to have a vibrant economy for them (and us) to work in
Brexit: the referendum
- Thread starter MikeG
- Start date
Sorry about the order of quotes, I am on a phone.
This is a finw example of what Craig was discussing:
Note the antisemitic reference to Jewish lordships.
Yes, reason isn't going to do much if someone expresses views like the quote above yours.
This is a finw example of what Craig was discussing:
Note the antisemitic reference to Jewish lordships.
Yes, reason isn't going to do much if someone expresses views like the quote above yours.
Information Analyst
Penultimate Amazing
Not true. As was pointed out on one of the recent US shooting threads, death by dangerous driving here gets up to 14 years.
Information Analyst
Penultimate Amazing
Speculation and "principles." I don't much mind those who doggedly cling to the latter, but those who various "look art what we can spend the money on when we're out" fantasies are getting right on my tits.
Roofgardener
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2015
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- 417
Much like that post
A concern about the social impact of mass migration is NOT Xenophobia, and it IS rational.
However, I'd also argue that it is NOT (or at least shouldn't be) the only concern about the European Union, and the advisability of leaving it.
Lukraak_Sisser
Philosopher
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- Aug 20, 2009
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- 6,052
I still wonder what magical economic strength is going to make britain (or more likely england alone) be on par with the EU once they leave.
Maybe, just maybe, if trump becomes president in the US he will keep his promise and keep trade agreements at the same level, but he IS a capitalist and since a small nation has less trade muscles to flex than a large coordinated market I doubt it.
As for the rest, the UK, let alone england has no resources to speak of, the economic services it offers can easily be done elsewhere and is not needed for international trade routs, nor does it still have a major manufactoring base, yet it is very dependent on the EU for its export and imports, which will not change.
At the same time the UK now has a LOT of little perks in the EU negotiated by Tatcher that give it a lot of influence and profit that will vanish and they will lose all influence on EU decisions, which will still affect them.
I see the same thing in the dutch exit supporters here who seem to ignore that if the Netherlands leaves the EU germany and france can still dictate us economically but without the disproportional influence we have now.
Of course, maybe international politics will suddenly change and become based upon goodwill and friendship rather than the current way of working and the brexit will make china and the rest of the world admire the plucky little nation, rewarding it with lots of good trade deals.
Maybe, just maybe, if trump becomes president in the US he will keep his promise and keep trade agreements at the same level, but he IS a capitalist and since a small nation has less trade muscles to flex than a large coordinated market I doubt it.
As for the rest, the UK, let alone england has no resources to speak of, the economic services it offers can easily be done elsewhere and is not needed for international trade routs, nor does it still have a major manufactoring base, yet it is very dependent on the EU for its export and imports, which will not change.
At the same time the UK now has a LOT of little perks in the EU negotiated by Tatcher that give it a lot of influence and profit that will vanish and they will lose all influence on EU decisions, which will still affect them.
I see the same thing in the dutch exit supporters here who seem to ignore that if the Netherlands leaves the EU germany and france can still dictate us economically but without the disproportional influence we have now.
Of course, maybe international politics will suddenly change and become based upon goodwill and friendship rather than the current way of working and the brexit will make china and the rest of the world admire the plucky little nation, rewarding it with lots of good trade deals.
Not to me it doesn't.
Sure there's an attraction to the fantasy being put forward by the "Out" campaign, that the UK will retain all her benefits of EU membership but, unlike other countries, will not have to make nay financial contribution or have to conform with EU regulations, but that's cloud cuckoo land.
IMO Brexit makes no sense but then again I'm dependent on doing business with the EU for a living, I'm in favour of the free movement of people (being the son of, and married to immigrants) and I think that EU "meddling" in UK laws has actually been to our benefit.
Maybe not. In the days when China was weak and the UK dominated world trade, the "trade deal" the UK gave China was the Unequal Treaties and the Opium Wars. I hope they don't repay in kind.
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
The EU has never done anything for single mothers. The trouble is neither have the Brexit people who only seem interested in cutting spending on vital services like public conveniences and libraries.
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
Given the strict limit on their powers, I'm not sure what they could have done - what do you suggest ?
A sign of Dave's desperation? :
David Cameron has said he is proud to campaign with Sadiq Khan to stay in the EU, weeks after claiming Labour’s London mayor was unfit for office because of links to Islamist extremists.
I have to wonder about Khan's involvement in that, mind. Perhaps they were just accidentally 'sharing a platform' ?
David Cameron has said he is proud to campaign with Sadiq Khan to stay in the EU, weeks after claiming Labour’s London mayor was unfit for office because of links to Islamist extremists.
I have to wonder about Khan's involvement in that, mind. Perhaps they were just accidentally 'sharing a platform' ?
Another example of complete lack of facts. There have been tens of thousands of UK European Social Fund Projects (ESF) and European Regional Development Fund Projects over the period of 1980 -2014 with free childcare and education to help women do everything from setting up their own businesses, providing business grants to women, helping women enter various job markets covering everything from Construction to Horticulture. But really nothing very much at all. And there is planned for in the period 2014-2020, the ESF and European Regional Development Fund are investing around €11.8 billion across the UK to be spent on small business, long term unemployed, young people and women. If you want to read more here is the link http://ec.europa.eu/esf/main.jsp?catId=381 However if the Brexit camp have their way these projects and all the jobs of people running these projects will all be lost.
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Mid
Graduate Poster
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- Jun 11, 2005
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- 1,123
Economics is not built on scientific rock but it's more rigorous than saying "I feel this therefore it's true and everyone who disagrees is paid up EU shills" like the leave campaign has resorted to. By the way there are economic arguments that output could be higher in a Brexit world than a Remain world but these are generally based on slashing regulation, labour protection and tariffs and the Leave campaign have been somewhat silent on these strangely enough.
Also "Mediocre business leadership is OK if there are first class products" isn't supported by any reading of British economic history, although "Mediocre business leadership is OK if there are no significant competitors" is.
welshdean
Michael McDonald 1967 - 2021
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It seems that the argument seems to be coming down to immigration. It seems that it's more important to be able to exclude immigrants than it is to have a vibrant economy for them (and us) to work in
The immigration angle doesn't hold up very well. Not very well at all
Sorry to sink the racists/xenophobes boat, with the facts!
Data from here
Or indeed Malbec, who seems to think that the NAZIs were part of a Jewish conspiracy, and who also claims that there are many aliens with faster than light transportation.
Which simply shows that two people can find opposite conclusions from what should be the same data set . In my case , it is view formed decades ago and now regarded as a necessity rather than a preference .
As I separately believe the EU is close to tumbling over the financial edge , and probably later this year , the result is personally largely academic . The talk will soon be about life belts and rafts .
However that did not stop my postal vote putting us into an early lead . If only for a brief second .