Continuation Part 21: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Whoa! Steady on: didn't Carlos Dalla Vedova omit to file a complaint as per his professional obligation as an Italian barrister? Oh dear. He forgot.

Could be embarrassing for him to explain why he didn't complain at the time and why the defense team told the court Amanda wasn't hit.

Hold your horses!

He did not forget. Under which law should the complaint be lodged given that Italy is totally at odds with international law regarding degrading/torture crimes. Last I read there are no effective laws in Italy under which Knox's complaint could be lodged. (I could be out of date here so I stand corrected).

Italy has a problem with their legal system regarding torture which together with their statute of limitations is in complete conflict with article 3 of the ECHR. The ECHR will not tolerate evasive action by Italy via these two loopholes.

Presendant setting case law including Italy's problems regarding torture and the statute of limitations will set the foundation for Knox's appeal.

In effect the fact that Knox may or may not have laid any complaint in Italy is completely irrelevant.

My guess is that Italy will ONCE AGAIN be hauled over the coals by the ECHR for continually failing to update their laws to fall in line with international norms.
 
Whoa! Steady on: didn't Carlos Dalla Vedova omit to file a complaint as per his professional obligation as an Italian barrister? Oh dear. He forgot.

Could be embarrassing for him to explain why he didn't complain at the time and why the defense team told the court Amanda wasn't hit.

Hold your horses!

They chose not to file a complaint for obvious reasons. But since Amanda referenced being slapped in her memoriale there was a near contemporaneous record of the incident. Later, when Amanda defended herself in court by, in part, referencing the assault, the police response was to file charges against her. So, so much for anyone taking her complaints seriously!

Of course, in that foolish action taken by the police, Boninsega tore them all a new one. Consequently, Amanda's position at the ECHR is impregnable.
 
What you have to realise is European countries are not that bothered by ECHR rulings. The UK tried to deport a criminal Somali immigrant and the ECHR ruled it was against his rights to a family life (or something). Home Secretary, Theresa May, just wants out of the Human Rights Act.

If Italy settles, it will be for PR reasons, not HR ones.

Great Britain is threatening to leave the EU. Italy is not. If the UK leaves the EU, it probably won't be good for Britain. But if Italy left it would be a disaster for Italy.

But you are right. If Italy settles, it won't be because they care all that much for human rights because obviously they don't. No, they'll settle out of expediency knowing that the case is lost and that it will be cheaper and look better settling than taking another on the chin.
 
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What you have to realise is European countries are not that bothered by ECHR rulings. The UK tried to deport a criminal Somali immigrant and the ECHR ruled it was against his rights to a family life (or something). Home Secretary, Theresa May, just wants out of the Human Rights Act.

If Italy settles, it will be for PR reasons, not HR ones.

You are clueless. The Human rights act incorporates ECHR case law into Uk law! Not only are we bothered by ECHR rulings, we enshrine them. In Italy, the constitutional court was compelled to rule in order that ECHR judgements are complied with. The ECHR is superior to ordinary law. All Art 6 judgements by the ECHR stand over even res judicata. Which is why the callunia verdict will eventually be overturned.

You should do some reading.
 
Vixen said:
What you have to realise is European countries are not that bothered by ECHR rulings. The UK tried to deport a criminal Somali immigrant and the ECHR ruled it was against his rights to a family life (or something). Home Secretary, Theresa May, just wants out of the Human Rights Act.

If Italy settles, it will be for PR reasons, not HR ones.
You are clueless. The Human rights act incorporates ECHR case law into Uk law! Not only are we bothered by ECHR rulings, we enshrine them. In Italy, the constitutional court was compelled to rule in order that ECHR judgements are complied with. The ECHR is superior to ordinary law. All Art 6 judgements by the ECHR stand over even res judicata. Which is why the callunia verdict will eventually be overturned.

You should do some reading.

Some people live in strange universes. For some, everything is a Masonic conspiracy. For others, everything that happens is for PR reasons.

Whatever floats your boat.
 
Some people live in strange universes. For some, everything is a Masonic conspiracy. For others, everything that happens is for PR reasons.

Whatever floats your boat.

Actually, I think that PR will be a major reason why they do settle it. . . .They want it to go away.
 
What you have to realise is European countries are not that bothered by ECHR rulings. The UK tried to deport a criminal Somali immigrant and the ECHR ruled it was against his rights to a family life (or something). Home Secretary, Theresa May, just wants out of the Human Rights Act.

If Italy settles, it will be for PR reasons, not HR ones.

You are clueless. The Human rights act incorporates ECHR case law into Uk law! Not only are we bothered by ECHR rulings, we enshrine them. In Italy, the constitutional court was compelled to rule in order that ECHR judgements are complied with. The ECHR is superior to ordinary law. All Art 6 judgements by the ECHR stand over even res judicata. Which is why the callunia verdict will eventually be overturned.

You should do some reading.

As pointed out by Kauffer, Italy is committed by its Constitution, its treaty obligations - it was one of the founding States of the Council of Europe (CoE) and the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR), which is the Court of the CoE - and by the decisions of its Constitutional Court, to follow the final judgments of the ECHR.

Supporting information:

Constitution of the Republic of Italy, Article 10:
The Italian legal system conforms to the generally recognised principles of international law.

European Convention on Human Rights, Article 1:
Obligation to respect Human Rights
The High Contracting Parties shall secure to everyone within their jurisdiction the rights and freedoms defined in Section I of this Convention.*

Constitutional Court judgment number 113/2011: A revision trial may be requested when it is necessary to reopen proceedings in order to comply with a final judgment of the ECHR.

* Section I of the Convention includes, among its several articles, Articles 3, 6, and 8.
 
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Actually, I think that PR will be a major reason why they do settle it. . . .They want it to go away.

Exactly. If they thought they would win, that would be different. But when you think you know the probable outcome, get it behind you. Instead, it's news cycle after news cycle reminding everyone how you screwed up.

What I don't know is if Italian law provides for a quick settlement. Given the bureaucratic nature of Italy I'm betting it's not that easy.
 
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You are clueless. The Human rights act incorporates ECHR case law into Uk law! Not only are we bothered by ECHR rulings, we enshrine them. In Italy, the constitutional court was compelled to rule in order that ECHR judgements are complied with. The ECHR is superior to ordinary law. All Art 6 judgements by the ECHR stand over even res judicata. Which is why the callunia verdict will eventually be overturned.

You should do some reading.

In theory. Anyone quoting the HRA is likely to be considered a little nutty in UK courts.

We had one case in insolvency practice wherein a bankrupt ('Hans') got a ruling from the ECHR that it was a breach to evict his family from their home - to satisfy creditors - because he had a disabled child.

Although widely circulated as case law amongst Insolvency Practitioners, we routinely turfed out families from their homes, disabled children or not.

Hans was the only one who managed to stay. So much for countries taking note of rulings.

Sure, there are huge fat books on EU Human Rights Act at British Library. It's just a shame judges barely give it a nod.

The ECHR doesn't have the jursidiction to overturn the calunnia verdict, and the Supreme Courts finding upholding it, outranks lickspittle Bonsegnia (_Sp?)
 
The ECHR doesn't have the jursidiction to overturn the calunnia verdict, and the Supreme Courts finding upholding it, outranks lickspittle Bonsegnia (_Sp?)

Add Bonsegnia (_Sp?) to Vixen's list of experts (in his case an Italian judge) who has proffered as an Italian judicial-fact that RS and AK were exonerated March 2015, but who found such because he's a "lickspittle." At least Vixen is consistent; she designates someone as such on the sole grounds that he's said something Vixen disagrees with.

Similarly, Peter Gill is a paid stooge of the defence (acc. to Vixen), and Vecchiotti is corrupt because of who she once had lunch with. No transcript of the conversation which was had at that lunch to prove anything one way or another, but the simple act of sharing a meal (once) earns Vixen's scorn and vilification - and, oh yes, Vecchiotti debunks Stefanoni's forensic-DNA work. Vixen would do better to show why Stefanoni's work should be preferred over Vecchiotti's trashing of it.... but, vilification and ad hominem are the coin of the realm in the Nick van der Leek world which Vixen inhabits.

It would be better if Vixen got around to answering Stacyhs's questions, which are still outstanding. I have two questions to Vixen of my own which are in the queue..... but as long as Vixen can hurl venom and ignore salient issues.....

........ this thread just may reach the 30th Continuation. The baby needs new shoes.
 
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....

The ECHR doesn't have the jursidiction to overturn the calunnia verdict, and the Supreme Courts finding upholding it, outranks lickspittle Bonsegnia (_Sp?)

LOL!

The above highly amusing statements are incorrect through implication.

1. The ECHR is not an appeals court and does not have "jurisdiction" to overturn any national court ruling.

The ECHR judges claims of violations of the European Convention of Human Rights, and when it declares that there has been such a violation, it generally awards compensation ("just satisfaction"), to be paid by the respondent State, to the person whose rights were violated

There is a process which leads to the potential overturning of a national court ruling after a finding by the ECHR of a violation of a person's rights by an unfair trial, or a violation of the prohibition on torture or inhuman or degrading treatment in relation to a criminal proceeding.

That process remains under the jurisdiction of the respondent State and is supervised by the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe. Failure of a State to follow the ruling of the ECHR leads to a potential additional judgment by the ECHR for a violation of the Convention obligation to follow the rulings of the ECHR, and leading to additional compensation for the person unfairly treated.

For Italy, the process will most likely involve the formality of a revision trial that will be compelled, due to a total lack of evidence of guilt, to acquit Amanda Knox of the charge of calunnia against Patrick Lumumba. It is possible that the revision court may also be required to state in its Motivation Report that Knox's rights under Italian law and the European Convention of Human Rights were violated.

Following the acquittal by the revision trial, Knox may apply for compensation from Italy; according to Italian law, Italy would not be able to deny such compensation under the circumstances of this case.

2. The acquittal of Amanda Knox for the charge of calunnia against the police has not been reviewed by the CSC. The 45 day limit for the prosecutor to appeal this verdict of acquittal has passed. Unless there has been such an appeal - and I welcome anyone with a verifiable citation to provide information on whether any such appeal has been filed - the Boninsegna motivation report with its acquittal becomes a final and definitive verdict, the equivalent under Italian law of a CSC verdict.

Furthermore, the ECHR will judge among the several verdicts and other proceedings of this case to determine which ones are in accordance or not with the requirement of the Convention for fairness.
 
The ECHR doesn't have the jursidiction to overturn the calunnia verdict, and the Supreme Courts finding upholding it, outranks lickspittle Bonsegnia (_Sp?)

If they cannot have their decisions overturns by the ECHR, why are they a member? I have asked this before without answer.
 
In theory. Anyone quoting the HRA is likely to be considered a little nutty in UK courts.

We had one case in insolvency practice wherein a bankrupt ('Hans') got a ruling from the ECHR that it was a breach to evict his family from their home - to satisfy creditors - because he had a disabled child.

Although widely circulated as case law amongst Insolvency Practitioners, we routinely turfed out families from their homes, disabled children or not.

Hans was the only one who managed to stay. So much for countries taking note of rulings.

Sure, there are huge fat books on EU Human Rights Act at British Library. It's just a shame judges barely give it a nod.

These comments are too stupid to respond to.

The ECHR doesn't have the jursidiction to overturn the calunnia verdict, and the Supreme Courts finding upholding it, outranks lickspittle Bonsegnia (_Sp?)

Actually, it is the Council of Europe who will supervise Italy's compliance with Article 46 of the convention, but Italy's own law requires the overturning of a verdict where an Art 6 ruling is won by a complainant in a case against it.
 
If they cannot have their decisions overturns by the ECHR, why are they a member? I have asked this before without answer.

The way it works is that the State, generally through its judicial system, overthrows its own unfair verdict (or holds a new trial which may overthrow a verdict which was only in part based on unfairness). The States in the human rights confederation "Council of Europe" retain their sovereignty and are supposed to correct, under the supervision of the Committee of Ministers of the CoE, their mistakes or misconduct when pointed out to them by the ECHR.
 
The way it works is that the State, generally through its judicial system, overthrows its own unfair verdict (or holds a new trial which may overthrow a verdict which was only in part based on unfairness). The States in the human rights confederation "Council of Europe" retain their sovereignty and are supposed to correct, under the supervision of the Committee of Ministers of the CoE, their mistakes or misconduct when pointed out to them by the ECHR.

While I did not remember the specifics but it makes no sense that you could join a extranational organization which is mean to make sure that you follow legal precedents and have no way of changing a verdict when that organization tells you that you "got it wrong."

My question was fo Vixen to explain how that could be.
 
While I did not remember the specifics but it makes no sense that you could join a extranational organization which is mean to make sure that you follow legal precedents and have no way of changing a verdict when that organization tells you that you "got it wrong."

My question was fo Vixen to explain how that could be.

The funny thing though is that it wasn't always the case. But Italy's constitutional court stepped in to fix the problem. The other funny thing is that they started to fix it a couple of weeks before Guede killed Kercher.
 
If they cannot have their decisions overturns by the ECHR, why are they a member? I have asked this before without answer.

This is because laws are passed by state legislature. ECHR doesn't have the power to intervene in the affairs of a state. All it can do is issue judgments, directives, order member states to pay compensation and general publicity.
 
This is because laws are passed by state legislature. ECHR doesn't have the power to intervene in the affairs of a state. All it can do is issue judgments, directives, order member states to pay compensation and general publicity.

Did they not sign a treaty which in effect stated that they would abide by all decisions by the ECHR?
 
Did they not sign a treaty which in effect stated that they would abide by all decisions by the ECHR?


Yes they did, as did all signatories to the Convention. And contrary to Vixen's semi-literate understanding of the situation, the ECHR absolutely DOES have the power to intervene in the affairs of a state, provided that the state is a signatory to the Convention. The ECHR acts as a supra-national court whose judgements and orders are absolutely binding upon the signatory states.

It's an often-parroted pro-guilt canard that the ECHR cannot overturn convictions. And while this is absolutely correct (in our case, for example, the ECHR cannot and will not tell Italy to annul Knox's criminal slander conviction), the ECHR can and does order signatory states to apply full and proper remedies to restore an individual's human rights. Clearly, if a conviction is significantly based on something that infringed the person's human rights, the very finding of the human rights breach by the ECHR makes the conviction, by definition, unsafe at the very least.

In some instances, it may be fair and appropriate to conduct a retrial of the person. For example, suppose that Mr A was accused of killing a man in a bar, and there was a good amount of eyewitness testimony that Mr A was the killer, but Mr A was unlawfully coerced into confessing, it's probably correct to retry Mr A without the now-discarded confession, to see whether the eyewitness testimony on its own will be sufficient in the eyes of a court to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Likewise, if the ECHR rules that even though a person's human rights were breached, the breach wouldn't have had a material effect upon the conviction, it may be fair and acceptable to retain the conviction without any retrial (e.g. a man with a genuine mountain of reliable, credible evidence of his guilt of the crime who was unlawfully denied access to a lawyer during his first interrogation as a suspect).

But in the Knox case, the human rights breach under discussion is, in effect, the entire genesis of the crime for which she was convicted (i.e. the criminal slander). If when the the ECHR rules that Knox was unlawfully coerced into accusing Lumumba, and that she was unlawfully questioned as a "witness" long after she clearly should have been declared a suspect and afforded the appropriate rights and protections, the entire evidence base for the criminal slander conviction disappears into thin air. So in the Knox case, once the ECHR rules in Knox's favour, it will order Italy to apply full remedy to restore Knox's human rights and to compensate her for the breach. And the ONLY course of action open to Italy in this scenario will be to annul the criminal slander conviction without retrial (since there will now be zero usable evidence against Knox in respect of the criminal slander), and to pay her a large sum of money by way of compensation.

So no, the ECHR cannot (and will not) order Italy to quash Knox's criminal slander conviction. But in practice, the ECHR (by means of its judgement and ordering of a full remedy) will place Italy in a position where it has no choice but to quash the conviction.
 
Yes they did, as did all signatories to the Convention. And contrary to Vixen's semi-literate understanding of the situation, the ECHR absolutely DOES have the power to intervene in the affairs of a state, provided that the state is a signatory to the Convention. The ECHR acts as a supra-national court whose judgements and orders are absolutely binding upon the signatory states.

It's an often-parroted pro-guilt canard that the ECHR cannot overturn convictions. And while this is absolutely correct (in our case, for example, the ECHR cannot and will not tell Italy to annul Knox's criminal slander conviction), the ECHR can and does order signatory states to apply full and proper remedies to restore an individual's human rights. Clearly, if a conviction is significantly based on something that infringed the person's human rights, the very finding of the human rights breach by the ECHR makes the conviction, by definition, unsafe at the very least.

In some instances, it may be fair and appropriate to conduct a retrial of the person. For example, suppose that Mr A was accused of killing a man in a bar, and there was a good amount of eyewitness testimony that Mr A was the killer, but Mr A was unlawfully coerced into confessing, it's probably correct to retry Mr A without the now-discarded confession, to see whether the eyewitness testimony on its own will be sufficient in the eyes of a court to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Likewise, if the ECHR rules that even though a person's human rights were breached, the breach wouldn't have had a material effect upon the conviction, it may be fair and acceptable to retain the conviction without any retrial (e.g. a man with a genuine mountain of reliable, credible evidence of his guilt of the crime who was unlawfully denied access to a lawyer during his first interrogation as a suspect).

But in the Knox case, the human rights breach under discussion is, in effect, the entire genesis of the crime for which she was convicted (i.e. the criminal slander). If when the the ECHR rules that Knox was unlawfully coerced into accusing Lumumba, and that she was unlawfully questioned as a "witness" long after she clearly should have been declared a suspect and afforded the appropriate rights and protections, the entire evidence base for the criminal slander conviction disappears into thin air. So in the Knox case, once the ECHR rules in Knox's favour, it will order Italy to apply full remedy to restore Knox's human rights and to compensate her for the breach. And the ONLY course of action open to Italy in this scenario will be to annul the criminal slander conviction without retrial (since there will now be zero usable evidence against Knox in respect of the criminal slander), and to pay her a large sum of money by way of compensation.

So no, the ECHR cannot (and will not) order Italy to quash Knox's criminal slander conviction. But in practice, the ECHR (by means of its judgement and ordering of a full remedy) will place Italy in a position where it has no choice but to quash the conviction.

Explained very well LJ.
 
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