Hillary Clinton is Done: part 2

Status
Not open for further replies.
The_Animus said:
Progressiveness is a scale
Click to expand...
Nonsense. Either you are a progressive or you aren't - there's no in between. Anyone calling themselves a 'progressive' who isn't Bernie or Bust is not a True Progressive.

And if by some trick Crooked Hillary manages to get the nomination, the only moral choice for a True Progressive is to not vote. Voting for an establishment candidate is throwing away your core principles in support of the oligarchy. No True Progressive would ever consider such a thing.

Perhaps this will result in Trump becoming president. If so it's not our fault - it's Crooked Hillary's for putting her own desires and those of 'moderate' liberals (aka "I've fallen and I can't get up" folks) ahead of the good of the country. If Crooked Hillary had the slightest shred of decency she would concede and hand the nomination over to Bernie.
 
RobRoy said:
I can see why you would think that, but that’s because you’re not arguing your original point. I often forget my original point, and instead argue what I thought was the spirit of that point, until someone points it out to me again. It’s a failure of others to only know what I said, rather than what I meant. :D

That is, your original comment was:



So I haven’t moved any goalposts. I’ve disagreed with your conclusion that progressives can’t support Clinton and still consider themselves progressives.
Click to expand...

I think I understand what you mean. The comparison to Trump confused it a bit for me I think.

I would amend my original statement as such.

Clinton is not a progressive candidate. She is a centrist, a little right of center in some ways and a little left of center in others, but also a corrupt liar. Those that vote for her in the belief that she is a progressive candidate are not progressive, and should turn in their card.

Those who recognize Clinton isn't progressive but are voting for her anyway because of how horrible Trump is, can keep their progressive card.

In this way they can be progressive, even if their vote this election and the candidate it is for, are not.

Besides, obviously I know what I'm talking about or I wouldn't have a progressive card* in my wallet right now! ;)

*insurance
 
The_Animus said:
Progressiveness is a scale, that's not the same as whether a candidate is 'a progressive' in the context of current US/world political ideology.
Click to expand...
I keep waiting for the evidence of that. Trump's illegal immigrant policy is identical to Canada's, yet Canada is "progressive" while Trump is called a Nazi over it. He's also a Nazi for suggesting some radical mosques should be shut down, while that is happening in France which is, of course, called "progressive" by the same people who call trump a Nazi.

It's all so confusing.
 
WildCat said:
I keep waiting for the evidence of that. Trump's illegal immigrant policy is identical to Canada's, yet Canada is "progressive" while Trump is called a Nazi over it. He's also a Nazi for suggesting some radical mosques should be shut down, while that is happening in France which is, of course, called "progressive" by the same people who call trump a Nazi.

It's all so confusing.
Click to expand...

It is ? I don't follow Canadian politics very much but I haven't heard about the Canadian government implementing a mass program of round-up and deportation of illegals.
 
The_Animus said:
Clinton is not a progressive candidate. She is a centrist, a little right of center in some ways and a little left of center in others,
Click to expand...
That's right. Bernie is the only True Progressive in our government, and everyone to the right of him is a centrist/conservative.

but also a corrupt liar.
Click to expand...
This is one fact that we and conservatives can agree on. Republicans have been trying to warn us about Crooked Hillary for decades - it's about time we started listening!

But don't worry. Come the revolution she will be first against the wall...

Those that vote for her in the belief that she is a progressive candidate are not progressive, and should turn in their card.
Click to expand...
and if they don't, they will be next...

Those who recognize Clinton isn't progressive but are voting for her anyway because of how horrible Trump is, can keep their progressive card.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but I must disagree. Anybody who votes for Crooked Hillary (for any reason) is not a True Progressive. If you vote for Hillary then you too are a centrist supporter of the oligarchy, and don't deserve to keep your progressive card. Claiming to be progressive while voting for Hillary is the same as claiming to be Jewish while eating pork, or claiming to be straight while having gay sex. It is a lie - which figures because liars like voting for other liars like Crooked Hillary!
 
The_Animus said:
Progressiveness is a scale, that's not the same as whether a candidate is 'a progressive' in the context of current US/world political ideology.

If the race were between Trump and Hitler, Trump would be more progressive, but to call him a progressive candidate would be silly. To call a vote for him, a progressive vote, also would be silly.

Perhaps a more accurate phrasing would have been to say anyone still voting Clinton at this point shouldn't consider their vote a progressive one. Or for those who would nitpick that, maybe anyone still voting Clinton shouldn't consider themselves to be voting for a progressive candidate. :p
Click to expand...

Equally valid is to say that anyone voting for a third party candidate shouldn't consider their vote a progressive one, as it's basically a vote for Trump. As is staying home and not voting.
 
uke2se said:
Equally valid is to say that anyone voting for a third party candidate shouldn't consider their vote a progressive one, as it's basically a vote for Trump. As is staying home and not voting.
Click to expand...

This is an old and tired argument and it's really unfortunate how many people on this forum continue to use it.
 
The_Animus said:
This is an old and tired argument and it's really unfortunate how many people on this forum continue to use it.
Click to expand...

It's not an argument, it's a statement of fact. How one chooses to use that fact is opinion, (a value judgement). You may choose to ignore said fact and vote your moral high ground (or it may not matter if you are in an overwhelming red or blue state). Or you may choose to vote based on the sad reality that your third party vote would indeed be throwing your vote away and you don't wish to do that.
 
The Don said:
It is ? I don't follow Canadian politics very much but I haven't heard about the Canadian government implementing a mass program of round-up and deportation of illegals.
Click to expand...

There's no "mass" to round up and deport since they have policies that keep them from coming in the first place. But they are certainly deported if found, and nowhere in Canada will you find police arresting illegal immigrants for crimes and yet protecting them from immigration authorities.
 
The_Animus said:
This is an old and tired argument and it's really unfortunate how many people on this forum continue to use it.
Click to expand...
We use it because it's true. When Trump becomes president, those not voting for the Democrat have effectively contributed to Trumps win.

We all may wish it wasn't true, but it is. Own it.
 
uke2se said:
Equally valid is to say that anyone voting for a third party candidate shouldn't consider their vote a progressive one, as it's basically a vote for Trump. As is staying home and not voting.
Click to expand...

Actually, I was hoping I could convince The_Animus to vote for Trump. If he "throws his vote away" on a 3rd party candidate, then is he basically voting for Hillary?

If it will make you feel any better I'll be voting for Hillary, come hell or high water in November (even if she's not on the ballot). Not because I want her to win, but because I lost a bet with my wife.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
It's not an argument, it's a statement of fact. How one chooses to use that fact is opinion, (a value judgement). You may choose to ignore said fact and vote your moral high ground (or it may not matter if you are in an overwhelming red or blue state). Or you may choose to vote based on the sad reality that your third party vote would indeed be throwing your vote away and you don't wish to do that.
Click to expand...

Or you can simply waste your vote chasing the lies the candidates tell you while hoping to get what you want even though none of the candidates actually support or will work hard to achieve those goals for you. Until the parties themselves are fundamentally and dramatically changed, private money is removed from the system and people are empowered to change how our political system works, The result is largely the same, the only difference is the lies you choose to believe.

So Ultimately, the only choice you really have is how you want to waste your vote, not whether or not to waste your vote.
 
The_Animus said:
Progressiveness is a scale, that's not the same as whether a candidate is 'a progressive' in the context of current US/world political ideology.
Click to expand...

I personally find it sad that words have become so polluted that progressive has shifted from a pro-enlightenment position of using science, technology, economic development etc to improve the human condition, to the exact opposite today where an anti-nuclear, pro-woo medicine, agricultural luddite candidate, supported by anti-science conspiracy theorists scores high on any progressivism scale. Today a good indicator of how progressive you are is how irrationally knee-jerk opposed to progress you are.

Why not just say that Sanders is more left wing?
 
Trakar said:
Or you can simply waste your vote chasing the lies the candidates tell you while hoping to get what you want even though none of the candidates actually support or will work hard to achieve those goals for you. Until the parties themselves are fundamentally and dramatically changed, private money is removed from the system and people are empowered to change how our political system works, The result is largely the same, the only difference is the lies you choose to believe.

So Ultimately, the only choice you really have is how you want to waste your vote, not whether or not to waste your vote.
Click to expand...
I don't think keeping an unqualified candidate with a serious personality disorder out the White House would be a wasted vote.
 
uke2se said:
Equally valid is to say that anyone voting for a third party candidate shouldn't consider their vote a progressive one, as it's basically a vote for Trump. As is staying home and not voting.
Click to expand...

If you don't quit your job, volunteer for Hillary's campaign, and send her all your money, then you are helping Trump win.
 
WildCat said:
There's no "mass" to round up and deport since they have policies that keep them from coming in the first place. But they are certainly deported if found, and nowhere in Canada will you find police arresting illegal immigrants for crimes and yet protecting them from immigration authorities.
Click to expand...

IOW it's nothing at all like Trump's policy of attempting to round up and deport 3% of the national population then.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom