I found the missing Jolt.

In layman's terms it is called "gobbledegook".

Step One in explaining it is to decide whether you are talking about real events or a fantasy.

In the real events of WTC 9/11 collapses there never was a "Missing Jolt" - it was a fallacy created by T Szamboti. And it is also the single most significant success that Tony has had. He has a lot of debunkers agreeing that the scenario for a jolt - drop to impact - actually happened. It didn't so you can join me in congratulating Tony - he has conned quite a few with that half of his nonsense.

It is WRONG as has been explained many times.

HOWEVER if you want to join Crazy Chainsaw and/or T Szamboti discussing fantasies - be my guest. ;)

Talk about gobbledegook!
 
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Would be impossible to sum up your evidence for the fantasy of CD better. What.

You make up BS and post it. You think loud noises, which witnesses hear and use simile, is evidence for explosives. You have failed to provide in 14 years any evidence for CD.

"What" is perfect to sum up your claims and evidence.
 
In layman's terms it is called "gobbledegook".

Step One in explaining it is to decide whether you are talking about real events or a fantasy.

In the real events of WTC 9/11 collapses there never was a "Missing Jolt" - it was a fallacy created by T Szamboti. And it is also the single most significant success that Tony has had. He has a lot of debunkers agreeing that the scenario for a jolt - drop to impact - actually happened. It didn't so you can join me in congratulating Tony - he has conned quite a few with that half of his nonsense.

It is WRONG as has been explained many times.

HOWEVER if you want to join Crazy Chainsaw and/or T Szamboti discussing fantasies - be my guest. ;)

Actually several jolts were recorded in the seismic data, but they were not visually observable, in the collapses.
 
I am not a proponent of an observable jolt... it's nonsense because columns were not made to instantly disappear such that the structure above comes down and impacts the columns below. Intact column hitting slabs would produce an imperceptible "jolt" or slowing of the top dropping.

This is a totally illogical... and ass backward thinking.

Actually that is what I said the jolt would happen so fast it would be over before it was observed.
 
It is simple physics, there is a velocity change and conservation of momentum. In a model the first speed change is .66 m/s and it will take 0.7 second to get back that lost speed. Since the WTC was not a model, but a real building, the floor connections and crushing was not all at once, but what ever overload from the mass falling above was first, and any speed changes would be masked by the chotic collapse. But speed changes have to happen when moving mass hits a slower or static mass, it is physics. To catch a perfect model collapse speed changes, you need to sample at least 20 f/s, and have the resolution to catch the speed change. This math and physics, and if 9/11 truth wants to claim there should be a visible speed change, they miss the fact the collapse speed is nearly the same as a momentum model of each floor failing as the upper mass hits. Which means the average collapse speed seen has the "missing jolt" built in, has the momentum transfers in a gravity field reflected in the speed of collapse.

I think 9/11 truth has a problem with floors failing instantly (aka an imperceptible time for a floor to fail when overloaded like 9/11 upper mass falling), they can't do reality.

Tony's over a second to regain speed is a good sign he is pure woo. LOL, over a second? 0.869 for the first impact, 0.397 next one, 0.314 etc, 0.272, 0.245, 0.226, 0.212, 0.201, 0.192, how can it be over a second when the impacts are less than a second? Does anyone try to do the physics part to check their failed lies and CD theory of woo. Not 9/11 truth.

Exactly there are most likely thousands of unobserved Jolts, and truthers have not shown any to be missing.:D
 
Actually several jolts were recorded in the seismic data, but they were not visually observable, in the collapses.
There were many sources of jolts.

Your OP was specific "I found the missing jolt" - so singular and specific the jolt known as "the missing jolt"

...and that specific "missing jolt" is the one falsely labelled "missing" by T Szamboti in his paper. That jolt NEVER existed - never could exist - it was a false scenario which never happened. He should have labelled it "imaginary jolt" or similar. OR to be pedantically accurate "The Missing Scrunch" which is what actually happened.

Actually that is what I said the jolt would happen so fast it would be over before it was observed.
You are wrong to refer to the jolt known as "the missing jolt" because that jolt never happened and never could happen. So the attribute of "so fast" (or any other speed allusion) is moot - unreferenced.... Something that does not and could not exist cannot have speed.

Exactly there are most likely thousands of unobserved Jolts, and truthers have not shown any to be missing.:D
That may or may not be true - I haven't perused all truther claims that were ever made. Have you? Global claims are always risky - it only needs one exception to falsify the claim.

The actual alleged by Szamboti to be "missing jolt" never could be shown to be either missing OR not missing. It was an artefact of a fantasy scenario which never happened.
 
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There were many sources of jolts.

Your OP was specific "I found the missing jolt" - so singular and specific the jolt known as "the missing jolt"

...and that specific "missing jolt" is the one falsely labelled "missing" by T Szamboti in his paper. That jolt NEVER existed - never could exist - it was a false scenario which never happened. He should have labelled it "imaginary jolt" or similar. OR to be pedantically accurate "The Missing Scrunch" which is what actually happened.

You are wrong to refer to the jolt known as "the missing jolt" because that jolt never happened and never could happen. So the attribute of "so fast" (or any other speed allusion) is moot - unreferenced.... Something that does not and could not exist cannot have speed.

That may or may not be true - I haven't perused all truther claims that were ever made. Have you? Global claims are always risky - it only needs one exception to falsify the claim.

The actual alleged by Szamboti to be "missing jolt" never could be shown to be either missing OR not missing. It was an artefact of a fantasy scenario which never happened.

I agree the Jolt in Tony's paper was a fantasy event that could have only happened in a fantasy but even if the fantasy was true the Jolt would not be missing only hidden.
The point being that Jolts would have been common and frequently occurring, in the collapses.
PS. We are on a website dedicated to discussion of CTER ideas most of which are fantasy, so
What is your problem?
 
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I agree the Jolt in Tony's paper was a fantasy event that could have only happened in a fantasy...
Agreed to that point - so far you are talking rational reasoned logic.

.... but even if the fantasy was true the Jolt would not be missing only hidden.
OK - now you go ambiguous.
IF Tony's fantasy was TRUE and you stay with rational logic THEN the Tony Jolt would have been real and observable. No way could THAT Jolt have been hidden.
IF you want to continue fantasy logic - then whatever you say goes. "Fantasy Logic" is an oxymoron - so no holds barred on nonsense.

What is your problem?
No problem other than poor lil ole me thought you were serious. It wasn't obvious to me that you had switched into fantasy mode.
 
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Velocity loss is observable in every Verinage demolition and it would be in any demolition where gravity is all that is used to break the full structure after an organized fall.
This (the "is observable in every Verinage" bit) may incidentally be true since
a) Verinage is indeed an "organized fall" (WTC wasn't)
b) No Verinage has been undertaken so far where the top part is 15 floors or more

However, it is not true, as you insinuate, that velocity loss must be observable for collapse to proced to completion.
There is a positive (downward) acceleration of the top part of g caused by gravity. As Verinage organizes an impact, this acceleration must be reduced. However, since the impact is never fully instantaneous but instead loss of KE occurs over a finite time interval, deceleration is a function of that time interval and the KE loss incured by the impact. It often will be, but doesn't have to be, more than g, thus resulting in loss of velocity.

Additionally, we must ask: Where is a deceleration observed? Answer: At the plane/level of impact. If however you observe some building feature much higher up (say a roofline 13 storeys higher), that feature may be sufficiently insulated, by elasticity and by plastic failures lower down, from the mass that actually causes the crushing that no velocity loss is observed there, even when there is velocity loss at the crushing interface.

Thus, your claim that there must be loss of velocity is plainly FALSE. It happens to be true in a number of other collapses, but may be absent.

...
It is the velocity loss which is observable and it would take over a second to regain the velocity...
This is plain nonsense.
This implies that the velocity loss is >= 9.8 m/s.
However, it can be shown (e.g. B&Z, even if you correct their numbers) that energy dissipation per story is only a fraction of PE differential of 1 story, hence loss of velocity due to crushing is only a fraction of the velocity gained by falling 1 story, or a fraction of a second.
 
This (the "is observable in every Verinage" bit) may incidentally be true since
a) Verinage is indeed an "organized fall" (WTC wasn't)
b) No Verinage has been undertaken so far where the top part is 15 floors or more

However, it is not true, as you insinuate, that velocity loss must be observable for collapse to proced to completion.
There is a positive (downward) acceleration of the top part of g caused by gravity. As Verinage organizes an impact, this acceleration must be reduced. However, since the impact is never fully instantaneous but instead loss of KE occurs over a finite time interval, deceleration is a function of that time interval and the KE loss incured by the impact. It often will be, but doesn't have to be, more than g, thus resulting in loss of velocity.

Additionally, we must ask: Where is a deceleration observed? Answer: At the plane/level of impact. If however you observe some building feature much higher up (say a roofline 13 storeys higher), that feature may be sufficiently insulated, by elasticity and by plastic failures lower down, from the mass that actually causes the crushing that no velocity loss is observed there, even when there is velocity loss at the crushing interface.

Thus, your claim that there must be loss of velocity is plainly FALSE. It happens to be true in a number of other collapses, but may be absent.


This is plain nonsense.
This implies that the velocity loss is >= 9.8 m/s.
However, it can be shown (e.g. B&Z, even if you correct their numbers) that energy dissipation per story is only a fraction of PE differential of 1 story, hence loss of velocity due to crushing is only a fraction of the velocity gained by falling 1 story, or a fraction of a second.

Energy absorption in the case of the North Tower would have been a very large fraction of PE early in the collapse. So much so that there would have likely been an arrest in the first few stories if the collapse actually was natural.

I have done the math as part of a group and it is stated publicly in the paper I was involved in with Gregory Szuladzinski and Richard Johns. It was published in 2013 and you can find it here free of charge http://911speakout.org/wp-content/u...tandings-Related-to-WTC-Collapse-Analysis.pdf

Have you ever read it?

You might also want to read the paper based on actual testing about energy dissipation of axially loaded columns during buckling here http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jstruc/2014/795257/. It is also free of charge.

You need to do and show the math before making the type of claims you are. I think you will find what you are saying has no validity in the case of the WTC Towers.
 
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Is that of any relevance to WTC Twin towers collapses?

Sure it is relevant as it shows the three hinge energy dissipation equation underestimates the amount of energy dissipated during bifurcated buckling which is what Bazant used in his analysis.

I know you try to say the columns never came into contact, as you seem to think they could have somehow slipped by each other, which is a notion that is quickly refuted by inertia of the upper section during the beginning of the collapse.
 
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Energy absorption in the case of the North Tower would have been a very large fraction of PE early in the collapse.
No.

So much so that there would have likely been an arrest in the first few stories if the collapse actually was natural.
Evidently not.

I have done the math as part of a group and it is stated publicly in the paper I was involved in with Gregory Szuladzinski and Richard Johns. It was published in 2013 and you can find it here free of charge http://911speakout.org/wp-content/u...tandings-Related-to-WTC-Collapse-Analysis.pdf

Have you ever read it?
No, not really. If it concludes what you wrote, it's nonsense.

You might also want to read the paper based on actual testing about energy dissipation of axially loaded columns during buckling here http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jstruc/2014/795257/. It is also free of charge.
Why should I? With this "axially loaded columns during buckling" stuff, it is obviously irrelevant to the WTC collapses.
Did Szuladzinski et al also assume "axially loaded columns during buckling"? Then I am glad I never wasted time on it.
 
Sure it is relevant as it shows the three hinge energy dissipation equation underestimates the amount of energy dissipated during bifurcated buckling which is what Bazant used in his analysis.

Your answer reveals confusion. The question was not about Bazant's limiting case assumptions. It was about the actual "WTC Twin towers collapses".

I know you try to say the columns never came into contact, as you seem to think they could have somehow slipped by each other, which is a notion that is refuted by inertia of the upper section during the beginning of the collapse.
Nonsense.
 
Energy absorption in the case of the North Tower would have been a very large fraction of PE early in the collapse. So much so that there would have likely been an arrest in the first few stories if the collapse actually was natural.

I have done the math as part of a group and it is stated publicly in the paper I was involved in with Gregory Szuladzinski and Richard Johns. It was published in 2013 and you can find it here free of charge http://911speakout.org/wp-content/u...tandings-Related-to-WTC-Collapse-Analysis.pdf


Have you ever read it?

You might also want to read the paper based on actual testing about energy dissipation of axially loaded columns during buckling here http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jstruc/2014/795257/. It is also free of charge.

It is your math I am using to disprove you, you and your group screwed up and continue to screw up on energy values. The equations you use presume a MA<R fall, however in the real collapse MA>R causes a different reaction.

In an MA<R model a jolt will be observed, in a MA>R Collapse or model, there can be no human perceived Jolt, it is physically impossible for it to occur.
The math checks out and is sound Tony, you and your compatriots screwed up.
 

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