Brexit: the referendum

[uke2se]

They'd only be important to companies exporting to those trading partners.

And companies importing from those trading partners. And companies providing services or having an exchange of any kind with those trading partners. That's most of the companies in the UK.

 

[Lothian]

I'm not really a separatist. I think the world is naturally becoming more interconnected, and I think this is a good thing.

I am for free* movement of people across the EU (across the whole world would be even better)

Brexiters are against this. Should we leave the EU free movement will be restricted and it will be harder to travel abroad or for foreigners to travel here.

I am for sharing of intelligence data between countries to make life harder for criminals

Currently a lot of this is EU funded. We would lose this until there is a new agreement. There would also be the issue of our financial contribution.

I am for free trade and common markets.

The EU is for free trade within the EU but everyone else has to pay to trade there either by tariffs or by lump sum financial contributions. If we leave there will be a financial cost if we are to get free trade. Norway pays the EU pretty much the same per head as we do now to get free trade.

I am against the corrupt, undemocratic, political gravy train that is the European Parliament. As time passes it'll likely get more corrupt, more bloated and it's better I think to scrap it and start over. If we can't do that then it's better to leave and hope that our leaving helps to cause other member states to rethink what the EU is and how it should be going forward.

Administration is 6% of the EU budget. I think this is quite favourable compared to the UK's own corrupt, undemocratic, political gravy train.

 

[Lothian]

If the rules on widgets were less strict in the UK it could help small businesses start up here making widgets and selling to only the UK, before growing large enough to then make widgets that met stricter standards that they could also export.

They may be shoddy, dangerous widgets but they would be our shoddy dangerous widgets.

 

[Lothian]

And companies importing from those trading partners. And companies providing services or having an exchange of any kind with those trading partners. That's most of the companies in the UK.

I agree, it is difficult to consider a business that would not be affected. Even if they don't trade with the EU they will receive services or goods from businesses who do. There is also the forecast of the IMF, the IFS, the Bank of England, the Treasury, The LSE, the OECD and the CBI who all predict Britain will be poorer meaning fewer* customers for UK businesses.




*Wonga, Cash converters etc excepted.

 

[The Don]

They'd only be important to companies exporting to those trading partners.

If the rules on widgets were less strict in the UK it could help small businesses start up here making widgets and selling to only the UK, before growing large enough to then make widgets that met stricter standards that they could also export.

As Lothian points out, why should U.K. consumers have lower levels of protection than our European neighbours.

Even if you decide that it's fine that we produce shoddy rubbish until were ready to export, the costs of applying the new standards may be prohibitive and the redesigning and retooling costs would sink the product.

At the moment, thanks to Europe, we're only bearing a fraction of costs of developing an implementing standards. In a post-Brexit future we could have our own standards (and bear the fill costs of defining and implementing them) or adopt the EU international standard (and have no say in how it's set). Seems like a lose-lose to me

 

[The Don]

I agree, it is difficult to consider a business that would not be affected. Even if they don't trade with the EU they will receive services or goods from businesses who do. There is also the forecast of the IMF, the IFS, the Bank of England, the Treasury, The LSE, the OECD and the CBI who all predict Britain will be poorer meaning fewer* customers for UK businesses.




*Wonga, Cash converters etc excepted.

I'm very biased. The vast majority of my company's business comes from the E.U. and within the E.U. Germany. I have been told in no uncertain terms that post-Brexit I will be on the outside competing with the Indians on price rather than being on the inside competing with the Germans on quality.

Post-Brexit I fully expect to have to lay off more than 50% of staff and there's a real danger that we'll be out of business. We could try to do business in the U.S. but the rates are nothing like as good and the cost of setting up to do business over there has proved to be prohibitive in the past. India would be closed to us, China is indifferent, the major market for us is the E.U.

I suspect that there are a lot of small to medium sized businesses like mine.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

They'd only be important to companies exporting to those trading partners.

If the rules on widgets were less strict in the UK it could help small businesses start up here making widgets and selling to only the UK, before growing large enough to then make widgets that met stricter standards that they could also export.

Perhaps widgets is a bad example but if those widgets were to be sold to a company to use in a product that is exported to the EU they would have to comply with the EU regs anyway.

Or if they were sold to a company who made something and sold it to a company that exported to the EU and so on and so on.

The market for UK specific sub-standard widgets is tiny if it exists at all. Is access to that worth the price of having to renegotiate a trade deal with a hostile EU and being excluded from current EU FTAs and future EU FTA discussions?

This approach also seems to be open to exploitation by people who would like to make the UK the sweatshop/slum landlord of Europe by doing away with the many protections afforded by EU legislation. The Tories are always keen to get rid of anything that might protect people - e.g. the Human Rights Act.

 

[Roofgardener]

The thing is, Archie, that if the UK Government do things that annoy the UK electorate, then they can be dismissed at the next general election.

The same can't be said for the EU commission, council, or parliament.

 

[Tolls]

The thing is, Archie, that if the UK Government do things that annoy the UK electorate, then they can be dismissed at the next general election.

The same can't be said for the EU commission, council, or parliament.

If the UK government does something that annoys the producers of widgets, then the widget manufacturers can vote for someone other than the current party in power, but they will be a drop in the ocean if everyone else is satisfied with the current set up.

Cameron's first government did a lot to annoy a lot of the UK electorate and yet here we are after an election and he has a majority now.

The same applies to the EU. If all the EU governments annoy their electorates then they can be kicked out and bingo, we have new commissioners, council and parliament (after an election).

 

[Roofgardener]

The individual citizens of Europe can replace their MEP's, but they have no direct mechanism for replacing their commissionaires or councilors.

The thing here Tolls is that the EU is simply too big; democracy doesn't necessarily work on this sort of scale with so many differing countries with so many different cultures and economies. As the EU's "centre of gravity" increasingly shifts to the East, then the interests of countries like Britain will increasingly become marginalised.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The thing is, Archie, that if the UK Government do things that annoy the UK electorate, then they can be dismissed at the next general election.

The same can't be said for the EU commission, council, or parliament.

I think this point just hugely exaggerates the difference between the UK system and EU system. You elect your MP. You elect your MEP. Stuff happens that is outside your control. You get laws you agree with or don't and are stuck with them.

We in Scotland are repeatedly told that its fair that we get a government we didn't vote for.

 

[Craig B]

The thing is, Archie, that if the UK Government do things that annoy the UK electorate, then they can be dismissed at the next general election.

The same can't be said for the EU commission, council, or parliament.

That's right, because the thing is that the EU is not a reincarnation of the defunct British Empire. There is more to it than solely the UK electorate.

There are other electorates too.

 

[Roofgardener]

Indeed Craig B,

And their needs may differ from our own electorate.

Unless you consider the concept of the "Nation" - as a distinct cultural entity - to be defunct or undesirable, then the EU - whilst democratic - is still anethama to British society, in that it attempts to impose European-wide "one size fits all" legislation.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Unless you consider the concept of the "Nation" - as a distinct cultural entity - to be defunct or undesirable, then the EU - whilst democratic - is still anethama to British society, in that it attempts to impose European-wide "one size fits all" legislation.

Unless you consider the concept of the "Nation" - as a distinct cultural entity - to be defunct or undesirable, then the UK - whilst democratic - is still anethama to British society, in that it attempts to impose UK-wide "one size fits all" legislation.

Do you agree with that too?

 

[Lothian]

The individual citizens of Europe can replace their MEP's, but they have no direct mechanism for replacing their commissionaires or councilors.

Same as the individual citizens of the UK have no direct mechanism to for replacing the Home Secretary or the Chancellor. The party with most seats in the UK elections decides who will take each role.

 

[ddt]

No that's Boris "Hitler wanted to unify Europe, and thanks to the UE you can't buy bunches of bananas nor can kids blow up balloons" Johnson.

What are you, some kind of crypto-Frog?

Let's face it, every country has it version of Donald Trump.

No contest from me, but the UK has Johnson and Farage competing for the title.

 

[Tolls]

The individual citizens of Europe can replace their MEP's, but they have no direct mechanism for replacing their commissionaires or councilors.

As much as I have a way of replacing a particular Minister.
By replacing my government (as if I have that power) I can therefore influence the commissioners and councillors that represent the UK...in much the same way I influence the make up of the cabinet.

The thing here Tolls is that the EU is simply too big; democracy doesn't necessarily work on this sort of scale with so many differing countries with so many different cultures and economies. As the EU's "centre of gravity" increasingly shifts to the East, then the interests of countries like Britain will increasingly become marginalised.

Then say that, and don't argue that there we do not have much the same facility for influencing the structure of the various levels of the EU as we do our own cabinet.

 

[ddt]

In the old days Parliament was the Supreme Court and the UK had a veto in a competitive common market. That all changed with the various treaties, like the Lisbon Treaty. Nowadays, if say Germany and France propose that Ukraine has the right to work in the UK then a British prime minister has to fly off to various European capitals to drum up support for a majority vote against the proposal.

What is particularly ironic about this nonsense is that, when in 2004 the EU was enlarged with Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, etc., it were Germany, France, the Netherlands who were worried they were getting flooded with cheap Polish workers and put up restrictions on their free movement, while the UK didn't.

 

[ddt]

There is talk now of the UK losing its seat on the Security Council of the UN, and the UK being replaced by Israel. The Foreign Office doesn't seem to mind.

Even if it were true, there would be logic to it. After all, Israel has more nukes these days than the UK.

 

[uke2se]

Indeed Craig B,

And their needs may differ from our own electorate.

Unless you consider the concept of the "Nation" - as a distinct cultural entity - to be defunct or undesirable, then the EU - whilst democratic - is still anethama to British society, in that it attempts to impose European-wide "one size fits all" legislation.

A nation is a distinct cultural entity? That's not in any definition of 'nation' that I've heard.