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Continuation Part 21: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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I see the story has now made the mainstream press in the UK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...man-rights-grants-amanda-knox-appeal-over-cl/

Nevertheless, Squires hasn't quite got it right and the headline refers to the 'appeal' being about Knox getting slapped.

The point is, she stands convicted for callunia - it's a taint that sticks. The purpose of the application to the ECHR was entirely about this conviction and not anything to do with murder trial, which was on-going at that time.

So, when Squires states that this case is properly described as one where Knox claims she was 'slapped by police and subjected to an unfair trial on charges of murdering Meredith Kercher', he is being woefully inaccurate.


Symptomatic of the media sloppiness, inaccuracy and incompetence that has plagued this story all along, unfortunately.

I'm guessing however that the media will get it substantially correct when the ECHR rules in favour of Knox's application, and Italy applies the correct remedy. Whenever that happens........
 
Symptomatic of the media sloppiness, inaccuracy and incompetence that has plagued this story all along, unfortunately.

I'm guessing however that the media will get it substantially correct when the ECHR rules in favour of Knox's application, and Italy applies the correct remedy. Whenever that happens........

That is a huge issue with science reporting where they will report on completely the wrong part of the research.
 
That is a huge issue with science reporting where they will report on completely the wrong part of the research.


Not to mention completely misunderstand any statistical elements of the research, especially when their ignorant misinterpretation can produce eye-catching provocative headlines such as "eating too much red meat trebles your chance of dying from bowel cancer".

If you haven't read "Bad Science" by Ben Goldacre, I cannot recommend it too highly. It's a really well-written and rational expose of all of this type of thing.

I have a certain amount of personal experience of journalistic incompetence from my days in stockbroking research, where I would often have either background or on-the-record conversations with business journalists. I vividly remember a phone conversation with the then Business Editor of ITN (which was the news department of ITV, the national broadcaster similar in size and scope to the BBC), in which his ignorance of the matter we were discussing was truly shocking.

And we've seen the very same thing with the Knox/Sollecito trials. No newspaper or major broadcaster was prepared to assign a reporter to the trial process for the duration, owing to the absurdly long timescales and the relative remoteness of the proceedings. So we were left with a combination of freelancers, stringers, agency reporters and house reporters picking things up off the agency wires. The freelancers and stringers had a hugely vested interest in writing sensationalist copy, since this had the greatest chance of getting picked up (at which point they would get paid....), while most of the agency copy was little more than a dry account of court proceedings. It was, all in all, a recipe for bad reporting, misinformation and damaging sensationalism.
 
I have not read that book but I have listened to interviews with the SGU. The hosts of the SGU and the hosts of hosts with Skeptics with a K.
 
I see the story has now made the mainstream press in the UK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...man-rights-grants-amanda-knox-appeal-over-cl/

Nevertheless, Squires hasn't quite got it right and the headline refers to the 'appeal' being about Knox getting slapped.

The point is, she stands convicted for callunia - it's a taint that sticks. The purpose of the application to the ECHR was entirely about this conviction and not anything to do with murder trial, which was on-going at that time.

So, when Squires states that this case is properly described as one where Knox claims she was 'slapped by police and subjected to an unfair trial on charges of murdering Meredith Kercher', he is being woefully inaccurate.

An accurate statement would be, for example: "The ECHR has accepted the application of Amanda Knox claiming that Italy violated her European Convention Rights during her interrogation of Nov. 5/6, 2007 and when she was convicted of falsely accusing Patrick Lumumba of the crime of murdering Meredith Kercher. The ECHR has begun the examination of the merits of this application by formally communicating it to Italy and requesting further information from both parties and Italy's defense or comments."

The statement above would be a less sensational news item and thus less likely to be published by many news organizations.
 
An accurate statement would be, for example: "The ECHR has accepted the application of Amanda Knox claiming that Italy violated her European Convention Rights during her interrogation of Nov. 5/6, 2007 and when she was convicted of falsely accusing Patrick Lumumba of the crime of murdering Meredith Kercher. The ECHR has begun the examination of the merits of this application by formally communicating it to Italy and requesting further information from both parties and Italy's defense or comments."

The statement above would be a less sensational news item and thus less likely to be published by many news organizations.

Oh, I don't know. I might have gone with this...

'Amanda Knox's conviction in Italy for slandering Patrick Lumumba in Meredith Kercher murder case under threat after dramatic European Court intervention'



Yours is too scholarly! :)
 
It was an interrogation. The ECHR has described it as an interrogation in its communication! That's a real problem for your analysis. Did you seriously think that there was some kind of category defence to the conduct of the police and Mignini such that an argument could be made along the lines that in a questura interrogation room, late at night, in the company of the authorities who requested her attendance in the room, a young woman's experience could be passed off as a camomile tea party during which, all of her human rights are unenforceable?

In such a room, in these circumstances whatever she says can be used as the exclusive basis for an arrest and later charges, apparently, yet still her rights are held in abeyance. And so, the denial of her rights is no denial at all, since, again apparently, she has no rights to deny. Even after her arrest, she is given no access to a lawyer. In fact, the first occasion she sees a lawyer is immediately before she comes before a judge. So tell me, why is she entitled to a lawyer at this point? Why does she have any entitlement at all in connection with these matters? And what is it that determines an entitlement then but legitimately precludes it at any time before?

ECHR case law, for your information requires the provision of counsel at the earliest possible opportunity. When, according to you, was the earliest possible opportunity? When she is taken into the interrogation room? At 1:45? At 5:45? On the occasion of her arrest? In the prison to which she is taken? Or, actually, moments before she stood in front of a judge when there was no time or opportunity for a consultation?

ECHR was using Amanda's own self-serving words. ECHR have only one side of the story. From a known serial liar, as upheld by the Supreme Court, whose conduct remains 'strongly suspicious'.
 
Let's not also forget that officers of the state are (and should be) held to a far, far higher standard of propriety, honesty and fairness than any other player in this game. Police and prosecutors must be utterly, scrupulously honest, and seen to be as such, if a judicial system is going to be seen as fair and just. And unfortunately in the semi-tinpot state that is Italy, where corruption, patronage and malpractice are seemingly institutionally embedded, there's currently very little hope of anyone feeling that they've had a truly fair investigation and trial.

I go back again to a very illuminating comment made by a very eminent aviation journalist in respect of the investigation into the Ustica incident (the crash of Itavia 870). The Italian courts found that the aircraft had been shot down by a French missile, while internationally-renowned air accident investigators had discovered clear evidence that in fact the cause of the crash was the explosion of a bomb inside the aircraft in the rear toilet area. The journalist (who'd also had other previous exposure to Italian "justice") made the stark comment that:

"I'm sorry, but Italy is a dreadful place to have an aviation accident. If you want the truth, you're less likely to find it there than just about anywhere else in the World"

And that, I think, sums it up rather well. Italy's justice system is broken. Just like much of the Italian institutional infrastructure.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH This reads like a spider on LSD. All over the place. Massive holes. Crazy insane fragments with tenuous links.

All that's lacking is the manic laughter and mad English accent to go with it (cf: the baddies in Jungle Book).
 
I see the story has now made the mainstream press in the UK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...man-rights-grants-amanda-knox-appeal-over-cl/

Nevertheless, Squires hasn't quite got it right and the headline refers to the 'appeal' being about Knox getting slapped.

The point is, she stands convicted for callunia - it's a taint that sticks. The purpose of the application to the ECHR was entirely about this conviction and not anything to do with murder trial, which was on-going at that time.

So, when Squires states that this case is properly described as one where Knox claims she was 'slapped by police and subjected to an unfair trial on charges of murdering Meredith Kercher', he is being woefully inaccurate.

The report is completely inaccurate. The ECHR has not 'found her claim valid', as the article claims.
 
The report is completely inaccurate. The ECHR has not 'found her claim valid', as the article claims.

Squires is referring to Italian media reports that the court has found the claims valid. There are lots of these Italian language reports about this matter. I'd be interested to know exactly what they are reporting.
 
ECHR was using Amanda's own self-serving words. ECHR have only one side of the story. From a known serial liar, as upheld by the Supreme Court, whose conduct remains 'strongly suspicious'.

What you would need to do is to explain how a not-an-interrogation can legitimately result in arrest and without any requirement for legal representation when the not-an-interrogation produces responses from the not-a-suspect which are also later used to charge and subsequently convict her.

Who goes before a judge not knowing what she's being charged with and having met her lawyer in the courtroom?
 
What you would need to do is to explain how a not-an-interrogation can legitimately result in arrest and without any requirement for legal representation when the not-an-interrogation produces responses from the not-a-suspect which are also later used to charge and subsequently convict her.
Who goes before a judge not knowing what she's being charged with and having met her lawyer in the courtroom?

Granted, that happens quite often in the United States legally but that is actually a sad fact of the United States legal system.

Interesting, Justice Jackson (I cannot find the exact quote) wrote that a defendant cannot help himself by cooperating with the police during an interrogation.
 
In addition, Amanda herself has been pretty quiet. Does not seem to be all that in love with publicity.

So what was all that crap in the Press Release to all the newspapers that she was suffering trauma from a backache that gave her 'flashbacks' to her time in prison. Er, hello? She was in prison for her - as upheld by the Supreme Court - criminal conviction in perpetuity of maliciously accusing an innocent person of rape and murder to cover up for one of the killers, Rudy.

It reminds me of the occasion when the UK national press reported, "the Queen has a cold."
 
What you would need to do is to explain how a not-an-interrogation can legitimately result in arrest and without any requirement for legal representation when the not-an-interrogation produces responses from the not-a-suspect which are also later used to charge and subsequently convict her.

Who goes before a judge not knowing what she's being charged with and having met her lawyer in the courtroom?

As we have discussed, a common word can have a different, more precise legal definition than the common or garden meaning.

Thus, 'interrogation' in the legal meaning of Italy's police code means the interview of a 'formal suspect'.

Amanda was not a suspect as of the time she blurted out her accusation and confession of being at the murder scene and rape. The interview was immediately terminated.

Clear now?
 
Granted, that happens quite often in the United States legally but that is actually a sad fact of the United States legal system.

Interesting, Justice Jackson (I cannot find the exact quote) wrote that a defendant cannot help himself by cooperating with the police during an interrogation.

There's been quite a lot of discussion about representation. Interestingly the jurisprudence of the ECHR claims the importance of Miranda in its development - this at the same time, arguably, that Miranda has been weakened in its application in the US. So it is somewhat ironic.

As for the situation now in ECHR member states, the position essentially now is that there really is no such thing as a valid waiver of rights to counsel. You get a lawyer and in a timely manner.

It has been well argued in the US as you indicate, that there is no possible assistance to yourself in talking to the police unless it is to demonstrate an alibi by, for example, pointing to television footage of yourself attending some event far away from the scene of a crime at the time it is absolutely known the crime took place.
 
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