If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. Part II

MicahJava said:
I have seen many of his presentations online, and most of what he says is backed up by the NFPA 921.
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No it isn't.


As in, he describes characteristics of the WTC destruction that are signs of intentional destruction.
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What "signs of intentional destruction" are these?

Go here and ask these people, unlike that moron Gage they are fire experts: http://www.firehouse.com/forums/f357/

Again let us know how you make out.
 
MicahJava said:
Can you debunk the NFPA 921? You don't need Gage or Cole or anybody to justify an investigation into insider foul play, only that. Passages from the NFPA 921 eerily describe the WTC destruction.
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What foul play, you mean Cole's idiotic experiments are foul play, inside 9/11 truth fraud?
Or is it Gage's claims of CD, are insider foul play?

WTC towers failed due to fire, gravity collapse. 7 WTC fires not fought, failed due to the effects of fire.

Thus your NFPA 921 BS, remains a failed tagline of 9/11 truth. You might be gullible, and proof is falling for Gage's nonsense.

I debunked Gage, there was no CD, and Cole debunks himself. You are repeating the same old 9/11 truth failed NFPA stuff; it was already debunked, it is self-debunking.

This is exactly like you not knowing Flight 77's flight path.

How does your stuff support or debunk Cole?
 
DGM said:
No it doesn't. If you think it does and warrants investigation, make your case.

You're as wrong on this as the people that claim the NTSB should have reconstructed the aircraft.
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Here is a link to the 2004 edition: www.sierragal.com/252_stuff/NFPA_921.pdf

21.3.2 - High-Order Damage. High-order damage is characterized by shattering of the structure, producing small, pulverized debris. Walls, roofs, and structural members are splintered or shattered, with the building completely demolished. Debris is thrown great distances, possibly hundreds of feet. High-order damage is the result of rapid rates of pressure rise.

Obviously, this applies to the WTC. "Debris thrown great distances" even applies to the WTC 7, because of two witness sources that say that an entire elevator car came out of it's shaft and was in the hallway.

22.2.4.1 - Exotic accelerants have been hypothesized as having been used to start or accelerate some rapidly growing fires and were referred to in these particular instances as high temperature accelerants (HTA). Indicators of exotic accelerants include an exceedingly rapid rate of fire growth, brilliant flares (particularly at the start of the fire), and melted steel or concrete. A study of 25 fires suspected of being associated with HTAs during the 1981–1991 period revealed that there was no conclusive scientific proof of the use of such HTA.

There are credible witnesses to molten steel, like Astaneh, and artifacts from ground zero which have been claimed to contain molten steel and/or concrete. It's worth at least testing some of the material like Steven Jones did. Some particles found in the WTC dust could have only been formed by temperatures well over the melting point of iron.

A) Terrorism. The targets set by terrorists may appear to be at random; however, target locations are generally selected with some degree of political or economic significance. Political targets generally include government offices, newspapers, universities, political party headquarters, and military or law enforcement installations. Political terrorists may also target diverse properties such as animal research facilities or abortion clinics. Economic targets may include business offices, distribution facilities of utility providers (e.g., atomic generation plants), banks, or companies thought to have an adverse impact on the environment. Fires or explosions become a means of creating confusion, fear, or anarchy. The terrorist may include fire as but one of a variety of weapons, along with explosives, used in furthering his or her goal.

Obviously 9/11 was terrorism, and saying "But a plane hit the building" is not an excuse to not have an arson investigation.

18.4.5 - Unusual residues might remain from the initial fuel. Those residues could arise from thermite, magnesium, or other pyrotechnic materials.

Iron microspheres similar to the kind produced by thermitic materials, with no peer-reviewed science that these spheres can be produced by building fires or building rubble.

21.4.1.3 Negative Pressure Phase. 21.4.1.3.1 - As the extremely rapid expansion of the positive pressure phase of the explosion moves outward from the origin of the explosion, it displaces, compresses, and heats the ambient surrounding air. A low air pressure condition (relative to ambient) is created at the epicenter or origin. When the positive pressure phase dissipates, air rushes back to the area of origin to equilibrate the low air pressure condition, creating the negative pressure phase.

"Everything went out of me with this massive wind... Stuff was just flying past. Then it stopped and got really quiet, and then everything came back at us. I could breathe at this point, but now I was sucking all that stuff in, too. It was almost like a back draft. It sounded like a tornado." -Former Army sergeant and police officer Sue Keane

23.8.2.2 Shrapnel Injuries. Shrapnel (solid fragments) traveling at high speeds from the epicenter of an explosion can cause amputations, dismemberment, lacerations or perforations resembling stab wounds, localized blunt trauma such as broken and crushed bones, and soft tissue damage.

https://www.reddit.com/r/911truth/comments/4g1b6h/shrapnel_injury_the_next_body_bag_held_only_a_leg/

There you go. That's more than enough. Even if the WTC exhibited none of these characteristics, destructive elements other than the aircraft should have been investigated because 9/11 should have been the most over-investigated event ever.
 
MicahJava said:
There you go. That's more than enough. Even if the WTC exhibited none of these characteristics, destructive elements other than the aircraft should have been investigated because 9/11 should have been the most over-investigated event ever.
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Will you contact them for a statement?

I'm not interested in explaining why your wrong, done that too many times in the last 10 years.
 
ProBonoShill said:
And, how does that prevent you from contacting them yourself?

Try here, see what you can find: http://www.firehouse.com/forums/f357/

Be sure to let us know how you make out.
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I have actually attempted to find the online profiles of some of the firefighters and fire chiefs that were involved in WTC 7, or said something interesting about WTC 7, but they all don't really have an online presence I could find. Either way, NIST has no good reason not to release their interview transcripts. One which could settle a lot of disputes is their transcripts of their interview with Barry Jennings and Michael Hess, but my request for that was rejected.
 
DGM said:
Will you contact them for a statement?

I'm not interested in explaining why your wrong, done that too many times in the last 10 years.
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I'm seeing the quote on your signature, "Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution", and I find that ironic. Wouldn't an investigation into insider involvement in the WTC destruction be the thing that progresses toward a solution, while arguing on internet forums just bogs down the discussion? Think about it, you could say "See? I told you there was nothing!".
 
MicahJava said:
I'm seeing the quote on your signature, "Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution", and I find that ironic. Wouldn't an investigation into insider involvement in the WTC destruction be the thing that progresses toward a solution, while arguing on internet forums just bogs down the discussion? Think about it, you could say "See? I told you there was nothing!".
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It would be if there was any evidence of insider involvement. There is none.

Do you have any factual/material based evidence? As far as I see the best you got is "truther" hear-say.

Will you contact the NFPA? Think about it, you'd be doing actual investigation.:rolleyes:
 
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MicahJava said:
Here is a link to the 2004 edition: www.sierragal.com/252_stuff/NFPA_921.pdf

21.3.2 - High-Order Damage. High-order damage is characterized by shattering of the structure, producing small, pulverized debris. Walls, roofs, and structural members are splintered or shattered, with the building completely demolished. Debris is thrown great distances, possibly hundreds of feet. High-order damage is the result of rapid rates of pressure rise.

Obviously, this applies to the WTC. "Debris thrown great distances" even applies to the WTC 7, because of two witness sources that say that an entire elevator car came out of it's shaft and was in the hallway.
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How does this prove CD?

22.2.4.1 - Exotic accelerants have been hypothesized as having been used to start or accelerate some rapidly growing fires and were referred to in these particular instances as high temperature accelerants (HTA). Indicators of exotic accelerants include an exceedingly rapid rate of fire growth, brilliant flares (particularly at the start of the fire), and melted steel or concrete. A study of 25 fires suspected of being associated with HTAs during the 1981–1991 period revealed that there was no conclusive scientific proof of the use of such HTA.

There are credible witnesses to molten steel, like Astaneh, and artifacts from ground zero which have been claimed to contain molten steel and/or concrete. It's worth at least testing some of the material like Steven Jones did. Some particles found in the WTC dust could have only been formed by temperatures well over the melting point of iron.
Click to expand...

Link to witnesses please.

The material was tested and found to be primer paint. Please use the search function before embarrassing yourself any further.


A) Terrorism. The targets set by terrorists may appear to be at random; however, target locations are generally selected with some degree of political or economic significance. Political targets generally include government offices, newspapers, universities, political party headquarters, and military or law enforcement installations. Political terrorists may also target diverse properties such as animal research facilities or abortion clinics. Economic targets may include business offices, distribution facilities of utility providers (e.g., atomic generation plants), banks, or companies thought to have an adverse impact on the environment. Fires or explosions become a means of creating confusion, fear, or anarchy. The terrorist may include fire as but one of a variety of weapons, along with explosives, used in furthering his or her goal.

Obviously 9/11 was terrorism, and saying "But a plane hit the building" is not an excuse to not have an arson investigation.
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Why would they conduct an arson investigation???? Do you think the leading fire experts in the world agree with you? If not, why?

18.4.5 - Unusual residues might remain from the initial fuel. Those residues could arise from thermite, magnesium, or other pyrotechnic materials.

Iron microspheres similar to the kind produced by thermitic materials, with no peer-reviewed science that these spheres can be produced by building fires or building rubble.
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Wrong see above

21.4.1.3 Negative Pressure Phase. 21.4.1.3.1 - As the extremely rapid expansion of the positive pressure phase of the explosion moves outward from the origin of the explosion, it displaces, compresses, and heats the ambient surrounding air. A low air pressure condition (relative to ambient) is created at the epicenter or origin. When the positive pressure phase dissipates, air rushes back to the area of origin to equilibrate the low air pressure condition, creating the negative pressure phase.

"Everything went out of me with this massive wind... Stuff was just flying past. Then it stopped and got really quiet, and then everything came back at us. I could breathe at this point, but now I was sucking all that stuff in, too. It was almost like a back draft. It sounded like a tornado." -Former Army sergeant and police officer Sue Keane
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And how is that statement not consistent with a building collapsing due to damage and fire?


23.8.2.2 Shrapnel Injuries. Shrapnel (solid fragments) traveling at high speeds from the epicenter of an explosion can cause amputations, dismemberment, lacerations or perforations resembling stab wounds, localized blunt trauma such as broken and crushed bones, and soft tissue damage.

https://www.reddit.com/r/911truth/comments/4g1b6h/shrapnel_injury_the_next_body_bag_held_only_a_leg/
Click to expand...

And how is that not consistent with a building collapsing due to damage and fire?



here you go. That's more than enough. Even if the WTC exhibited none of these characteristics, destructive elements other than the aircraft should have been investigated because 9/11 should have been the most over-investigated event ever.
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It was the most investigated event ever, too bad you don't seem able to grasp the results.
 
MicahJava said:
I have actually attempted to find the online profiles of some of the firefighters and fire chiefs that were involved in WTC 7, or said something interesting about WTC 7, but they all don't really have an online presence I could find. Either way, NIST has no good reason not to release their interview transcripts. One which could settle a lot of disputes is their transcripts of their interview with Barry Jennings and Michael Hess, but my request for that was rejected.
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I provided a link for you, now it's time for you to get to work, let me know what you find out.
 
DGM said:
It would be if there was any evidence of insider involvement. There is none.

Do you have any factual/material based evidence? As far as I see the best you got is "truther" hear-say.
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Do you have any evidence for God? If not, you should be an atheist. Skeptic and atheist aren't separate things.

I gave plenty of reasons why there should be an investigation of insider involvement just by quoting the NFPA 921. For some people, I guess all the evidence in the world isn't enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGX9CRN_vgA
 
MicahJava said:
I'm seeing the quote on your signature, "Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution", and I find that ironic. Wouldn't an investigation into insider involvement in the WTC destruction be the thing that progresses toward a solution, while arguing on internet forums just bogs down the discussion? Think about it, you could say "See? I told you there was nothing!".
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There was already a massive investigation, if you can't comprehend the results too bad for you.

You guys are doing such a bad job, more people actually believe Bigfoot is real than the nonsense spouted by Gage and his group of morons.
 
MicahJava said:
Do you have any evidence for God? If not, you should be an atheist. Skeptic and atheist aren't separate things.

I gave plenty of reasons why there should be an investigation of insider involvement just by quoting the NFPA 921. For some people, I guess all the evidence in the world isn't enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGX9CRN_vgA
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Oh yeah more twoofer YouTube links. That will get you a new investigation for sure, they've worked so well for the last 16 years.

:dl:
 
ProBonoShill said:
How does this prove CD?


Link to witnesses please.

The material was tested and found to be primer paint. Please use the search function before embarrassing yourself any further.

Why would they conduct an arson investigation???? Do you think the leading fire experts in the world agree with you? If not, why?

Wrong see above

And how is that statement not consistent with a building collapsing due to damage and fire?

And how is that not consistent with a building collapsing due to damage and fire?

It was the most investigated event ever, too bad you don't seem able to grasp the results.
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I don't care to respond to you point-by-point. IMO you're just... confused. It's like you were reading something I didn't write. You insist on settling matters on internet forums yet you'll turn around and play appeal to authority when it pleases you. The WTC destruction deserves an arson investigation by experts.
 
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ProBonoShill said:
Oh yeah more twoofer YouTube links. That will get you a new investigation for sure, they've worked so well for the last 16 years.

:dl:
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I could've sworn Youtuber David Chandler compelled NIST to admit freefall of Building 7. Must have been a dream.
 
DGM said:
I'm an agnostic.
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Because there could be a God? We could all be living in a simulation. You could be living in a simulation and everybody else is just an illusion. You could've been brought into existence a moment ago and all your memories could just be your mind attempting to make sense of the situation.

Do you plan to contact the NFPA?
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Phone calls aren't peer-reviewed. I'm awkward on the phone anyway.
 
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