Deportation and other Immigration issues

[Maya22]

This is the first time I remember that two presidential candidates and a former presidential candidate criticized a policy of the administration of the current president of the same party. Do you remember other instances of this?

Clinton, Sanders reaffirm opposition to Obama immigration raids
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/12/politics/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-obama-immigration-raids/

Our Immigration Policy Is Not Only Unjust - It’s Un-American
Written by Martin O'Malley
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gov-martin-omalley/our-immigration-policy-is_b_9876288.html

 

[mgidm86]

If our government would actually monitor the border and stop encouraging people to flee their land and come here, we wouldn't have this problem!

Politics and big business will not let that happen. It's a humanitarian issue to us, the citizenry, but to them it's money and politics.

For every person we save from either Africa or Central/South America, how many more will take their place in a short time? The populations continue to grow out of control in these areas. This will never change, no matter how many people we take in, and it will never get better.

Poverty in these regions must be dealt with in those regions. Are we just going to continue to take people in until these continents are empty? What's the end game? Without one it's just politics and bullspit.

ETA:
Why are we bothering with raids when we have an open border? What's the reason for this sudden interest in illegals?

 

[casebro]

I think We the People probably want to stop illegal immigration. But both parties want to encourage it, or one or the other would have put a stop to it by now.

And my reading lately that Obama has been deporting more than ever before is that he changed the definition- they now count those turned back at the border. Phoney up the stats, make it look like he is tougher than he is on illegals.

And why do they want population growth? Because 'Growth is Good", no matter the cost. We need their income taxes to pay for our government programs. But on the average, more people = more costs, what with the way the gov spends more than it takes in . Always.

So, a different tax scheme beside income taxes is what would fix the problem at the source. Anybody know of a country whose taxes are property based instead of income based?

 

[WildCat]

Sanders wants higher wages while encouraging illegal immigrants, who are attractive to employers specifically because they'll work for less than Americans will.

As long as we keep importing foreign workers solely because they'll work cheaper than domestic labor there will be no upward pressure on wages at the bottom of the income scale.

Yet another reason why Bernie is a moron.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Your ancestors were all immigrants at some point. Many of them came without passports or approval of the locals.

 

[WildCat]

Your ancestors were all immigrants at some point. Many of them came without passports or approval of the locals.

As it turns out we're out of land to settle to defend our claim against the Indians, British, Spanish, French, Confederates, etc. And we no longer have an economy composed of 90% low-skilled workers.

Thus, the need to more properly control who can immigrate.

 

[casebro]

Your ancestors were all immigrants at some point. Many of them came without passports or approval of the locals.

Hey, we stole this land fairly, according to the rules of play at the time.

But now some of us want to change the rules, to prevent the current immigrants from taking over. Do you think we need a Constitutional Convention, or would the mere enforcement of current laws do?

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Your ancestors were all immigrants at some point. Many of them came without passports or approval of the locals.

That's on the same level of "our ancestors ate organic food" reasoning for the Paleo Diet.

 

[newyorkguy]

After rising at a pretty steady rate for about sixteen years, illegal immigration began to level off in 2008. Since then it has stabilized.

​

Reportedly, the Republicans in Congress had agreed privately to support immigration reform but needed the Obama Administration to give them some cover by ratcheting up deportations. The Republicans thought they could get their constituents to accept immigration reform if they could point to rising numbers of deportations. That they could say, "Look we're getting tough, we're cracking down, but we need to revisit some of these laws."

I think Republicans discovered illegal immigration is such a hot button issue with the GOP rank-and-file that there was just no way they could get anywheres near enough public support to reform immigration law.

 

[Maya22]

Sanders wants higher wages while encouraging illegal immigrants, who are attractive to employers specifically because they'll work for less than Americans will.

Please provide a link to an article or website which proves this. Thank you.

 

[WildCat]

After rising at a pretty steady rate for about sixteen years, illegal immigration began to level off in 2008. Since then it has stabilized.

Stabilized by sending the economy into a deep recession.

Reportedly, the Republicans in Congress had agreed privately to support immigration reform but needed the Obama Administration to give them some cover by ratcheting up deportations.

Deportations did not increase, in fact they decreased substantially. The Obama Administration changed the definition of deportations (to include those sent back at the border) to give the illusion that they increased while using the old definition the greatly decreased.

 

[WildCat]

Please provide a link to an article or website which proves this. Thank you.

That proves what, that Sanders wants to allow in anybody who wants to come here or that employers like immigrant labor, especially illegal immigrant labor, because they'll work for less than domestic workers will?

 

[Puppycow]

This is the first time I remember that two presidential candidates and a former presidential candidate criticized a policy of the administration of the current president of the same party. Do you remember other instances of this?

Clinton, Sanders reaffirm opposition to Obama immigration raids
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/12/politics/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-obama-immigration-raids/

Our Immigration Policy Is Not Only Unjust - It’s Un-American
Written by Martin O'Malley
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gov-martin-omalley/our-immigration-policy-is_b_9876288.html

Somebody at ICE seems to be trying to drum up controversy over what is really just routine enforcement activities that have been happening for a long time. This is not a new policy by Obama or anything.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. immigration officials are planning a month-long series of raids in May and June to deport hundreds of Central American mothers and children found to have entered the country illegally, according to sources and an internal document seen by Reuters.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) has now told field offices nationwide to launch a 30-day "surge" of arrests focused on mothers and children who have already been told to leave the United States, the document seen by Reuters said. The operation would also cover minors who have entered the country without a guardian and since turned 18 years of age, the document said. Two sources confirmed the details of the plan.

The exact dates of the latest series of raids were not known and the details of the operation could change.

So these are "hundreds" of people who have already been ordered deported. (Out of an estimated 11 million undocumented immigrants. It's not a huge percentage.) It's people who have already had their day in court.

 

[newyorkguy]

Getting back to illegal immigration, the deportation numbers now include people turned back at the border. My understanding is, these are not people who are merely 'turned back,' but taken into custody on American soil as they enter illegally and deported. Would some people prefer illegal immigrants be allowed to enter, stay for a while and then we can go looking for them? That's a more satisfying deportation? That makes no sense.

Anyway, a good indicator of how successful the enforcement action has become is that reportedly coyote fees, money paid to Mexican guides, has increased dramatically because of the stepped up border enforcement. Another indicator is that we're recovering from the recession but the decades long, steady increase in illegal immigration remains stopped.

Stabilized by sending the economy into a deep recession...

I hope the claim isn't that sending the economy into a deep recession was part of Bush's strategy to stop illegal immigration! Seriously, it does seem to validate what many people, including politicians in Mexico, have been saying for a long time. The United States has a powerful way to stop or at least dramatically decrease illegal immigration by enforcing labor laws prohibiting their hiring.

Why don't we do this? It's not like we don't know where they are. Research groups have done extensive studies of illegal workers. If college researchers and advocacy groups can find them the INS should be able to.

Twenty years ago the manufacturing company I worked for always had a percentage of illegal workers on the assembly line. Then INS began cracking down. It was relatively easy. The company was required to validate the workers' social security accounts. Anyone whose SSN couldn't be verified could not work. The Social Security Administration cooperated by immediately flagging what appeared to be fraudulent SSNs. The company was on notice that INS would levy large fines (in the $10,000 range) if we didn't cooperate. The company would then notify any worker whose SSN could not be verified that, "We're very sorry," but until they could straighten it out with Social Security, "We can't schedule you." I heard a lot of the people flagged wound up returning to their country of origin.

But it seems this policy has not been followed everywhere in every state. If illegal immigration is such a big deal I have never understood why that is.

 

[twinstead]

I've always thought too that if only legal citizens could work in the US way fewer illegals would have a desire to sneak over the border. I'd say instead of demonizing these people just trying to make a better life for themselves maybe we crack down more on companies and individuals who hire them.

 

[Maya22]

That proves what, that Sanders wants to allow in anybody who wants to come here or that employers like immigrant labor, especially illegal immigrant labor, because they'll work for less than domestic workers will?

Yesterday, I was looking for articles about wages of farm workers. It seems that wages vary from farm to farm. Some farms pay ny the hour, while other farms pay by the quantity of the produce harvested by each worker. I could not find any articles about farm workers being paid less than minimum wage. Unfortunately, that might still be happening on some farms.

 

[Minoosh]

If our government would actually monitor the border and stop encouraging people to flee their land and come here, we wouldn't have this problem!

I totally do not understand this perception that the government is not monitoring "the border." And the phrase "turned away at the border" conveys a misleading image, IMO. People penetrate the border and may be caught sooner rather than later, but they are not being greeted at the border and rebuffed.

Much of the border is virtually uninhabited and it includes every kind of terrain - including areas that commonly reach 115 degrees, and where hundreds die each year.

Also: some 50 percent of illegal immigrants did not cross illegally (several sources on this); and, border security has probably significantly accelerated Latin American population growth in the past couple of decades. People who would come to work seasonally could no longer easily come and go, so more families started coming and putting down roots.

And President George W. Bush got plenty of criticism from Republican candidates, though not from McCain, since the two had very similar views: Allow those here to register, pay a fine and stay, pending background checks. Reagan presided over a massive amnesty program.

You can't seal this country up like a tub of Tupperware. In my experience, people who live near border areas (and perhaps coastal areas) have much more realistic images and expectations than those in the center of the country.

Without getting into the merits of mass deportation or "open borders" (whatever those are), I can promise you that many people have no idea of the logistical issues involved.

 

[WildCat]

Yesterday, I was looking for articles about wages of farm workers. It seems that wages vary from farm to farm. Some farms pay ny the hour, while other farms pay by the quantity of the produce harvested by each worker. I could not find any articles about farm workers being paid less than minimum wage. Unfortunately, that might still be happening on some farms.

Minimum wage has squat to do with it. What you need to look at is what the wage would have to be if immigrant labor, both legal and illegal, was not available. Farm labor is difficult and dangerous work, and the pay is nowhere near commensurate with that reality. It shouldn't be paying minimum wage, it should be paying 4-5 times minimum wage. But there's no incentive for agriculture corporations to do that when they have a nearly unlimited supply of immigrants desperate enough to do the work. No incentive at all to increase pay and improve working conditions to attract domestic labor.

 

[WildCat]

You can't seal this country up like a tub of Tupperware.

Why not? Canada manages, because they actually enforce their immigration laws both at the border and on employers who would hire them. The USA merely lacks the political will, the Dems want future Dem voters and the GOP wants cheap labor.

 

[Puppycow]

I've always thought too that if only legal citizens could work in the US way fewer illegals would have a desire to sneak over the border. I'd say instead of demonizing these people just trying to make a better life for themselves maybe we crack down more on companies and individuals who hire them.

I've often had the same thought myself. If you truly wanted to crack down on illegal immigration, that would be the best way to do it. But it seems like it doesn't happen much, and even if it does, the employers only have to pay a fine, they don't go to jail.

http://cis.org/ICE-Records-Reveal-Steep-Drop-Worksite-Enforcement-Since-13

Judging from a recent widely reported case in Washington state,4 the deterrence value of the Obama administration's audit strategy appears to be limited. In 2012, ICE audited Broetje Orchards, one of the largest commercial apple growers in the country, and found that the company had employed about 1,700 illegal workers, which was more than half of the company's work force. Following such a finding, the company is supposed to terminate the illegal workers and clean up its hiring practices, for example by re-training personnel, enrolling in E-Verify, and using the Social Security Number Verification Service (SSNVS).5 Instead, the Broetje Orchards management reportedly tried to pull strings in Congress to avoid sanctions. Any personnel reforms that were implemented were short-lived, because when ICE came back two years later for the follow-up audit, agents found that 950 of the illegal workers identified in 2012 were still on the payroll.

The government's response to this continued flagrant and large-scale violation of the law was a settlement negotiated by ICE's scandal-ridden legal office,6 in which Broetje Orchards will pay a fine of $2.25 million, but will admit no wrong-doing and is now immune from any further liability related to this matter. ICE lawyers appear to have had no interest in proving any wrong-doing, either, which probably would not have been hard to do, especially if ICE agents were allowed to speak to any actual illegal workers.

This settlement sounds large, but is more of a light slap on their huge wrist. ICE has emphasized that the $2.25 million fine is one of the largest ever imposed on an employer, but it amounts to just $1,300 per illegal worker, a sum that must be far less than the company saved over the years on wages, taxes, and benefits by hiring the illegal workers.

So even when employers are caught red-handed, they have to pay a fine, they can reach a "settlement" in which they pay a nominal fine, but admit no wrongdoing, and they can simply continue on with business thereafter.