Ed General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 3

[Aridas]

Syria went to war with Israel. Why should they be allowed to keep militarily advantageous positions on the Syria-Israeli border after that?

I think it's a fundamental principle of warfare that, if a defender wins a war against the aggressor, they have every right to redraw the border in a way that benefits them and reduces the effectiveness of such aggression in the future. Syria's lucky that all they lost was the Golan.

Among other things. War is a nasty business, regardless, and losing aggressive wars tends to have nasty political consequences, as it should have.

What were the Israeli demands in the proposed comprehensive peace treaty with Syria? You know about this subject : enlighten us.

You do realize, I hope, that the ball is still in your court on this topic, CapelDodger? The point that Syria could have had the Golan Heights back had they agreed to a comprehensive peace treaty stands just fine as it is. If you want to argue against that point, the onus is on you to present an actual argument about why the proposed comprehensive peace treaty or treaties themselves were unreasonable. Not any of this "but the leader would have been a hero if he got back the Golan Heights, however he did it" dodging of the issue.

 

[WildCat]

5. You still haven't addressed my point. How did the jews go from assimilation to gas chambers in "progressive" europe?

Because progressive Europeans sent them there, progressively.

And they'd do it again today in a heartbeat, in fact Europeans on this very board have assured me that without strict laws banning Holocaust denial, Nazi symbolism and writings, etc Europe would once again erupt into an orgy of fascism, hatred, and genocide.

That's just how they progress over there.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Israel has nothing to do with the Holocaust. The driving of the Palestinians out of Palestine so that a bunch of racist Europeans could have it for themselves was not a response to the Holocaust. It was a response to having Palestinians where the Zionists didn't want them - in their country.

Uh-huh, yeah, sure, right.

A Jewish National Home in Austria after WW2 is soemthing I could get behind. Clear out the remaining Austrians and let in Europe's Jews. An injustice to some Austrians but not nearly enough to care about, and just the thing for the rest of them.

Here you trash any foundation for your objections about the same being done elsewhere. Your rant is, then, all about taking a side against Israel.

There are still Jews in Europe,

And? And they are greatly concerned, with communities losing population in France, Sweden, and other places one might think local enlightenment would save them. Turns out there is a growing alliance between extreme righties and/or lefties and Islamic militants, and plenty of terror against Jews for being Jews.

In southern Europe, you will find common sayings and expressions still in use that are horribly anti-Semitic. 'Dirty Jew' is still a common insult. And very few Jews remain.

The Holocaust is damned useful to Zionists, because it conceals the fact that they started this thing...

That will be quite enough from you: collective guilt justifying mass murder of innocents. Lucky for you, the only people who regularly kill for spouting such nonsense are your friends in the Master Faith.

 

[Jules Galen]

And, frankly,I am begin to detect a good whiff of "Left WIng Anti Semitism" in this thread, which of course, a lot people on the left denies to exist.
And I really amused by somebody who defends Putin on the grounds of cold realpolitik,but gets all emotional and on a moral high horse where Israel is concerned.

Blah, Blah, Blah. Whine. Moan, Beeyatch...Play the Victim Card.

You are getting tiresome.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Looking for something like Anti-Arabism?

Disappointingly lacking in imagination that term. Guess that's why it didn't catch on.

 

[applecorped]

Disappointingly lacking in imagination that term. Guess that's why it didn't catch on.

Yeah, AA brings to mind a different impairment.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

And, frankly,I am begin to detect a good whiff of "Left WIng Anti Semitism" in this thread, which of course, a lot people on the left denies to exist.

I think that sums up the whole problem.

In this thread we've seen the Arabs and Europeans and Left-wing all been criticised along with the Zionists and Israel.

And yet it's your Anti-Semitism detector that's been triggered.

It's that strange love affair of the American right with Israel mixed with their disdain for just about everyone else that triggered the satire that kicked off the whole recent stramash in the first place.

 

[Lorentz]

Because progressive Europeans sent them there, progressively.

And they'd do it again today in a heartbeat, in fact Europeans on this very board have assured me that without strict laws banning Holocaust denial, Nazi symbolism and writings, etc Europe would once again erupt into an orgy of fascism, hatred, and genocide.

That's just how they progress over there.

I do not believe this for a second. Do you have any evidence that might convince me you're not pulling this out of your colon?

 

[Giz]

I think that sums up the whole problem.

In this thread we've seen the Arabs and Europeans and Left-wing all been criticised along with the Zionists and Israel.

And yet it's your Anti-Semitism detector that's been triggered .

Yeah, the problem is those who complain about anti semitism. Sure.

 

[Jules Galen]

Because progressive Europeans sent them there, progressively.

And they'd do it again today in a heartbeat, in fact Europeans on this very board have assured me that without strict laws banning Holocaust denial, Nazi symbolism and writings, etc Europe would once again erupt into an orgy of fascism, hatred, and genocide.

That's just how they progress over there.

Horse manure.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Yeah, the problem is those who complain about anti semitism. Sure.

No the problem is double standards. But you knew that and thought you'd be a dick about it anyway. Very constructive.

 

[WildCat]

I do not believe this for a second. Do you have any evidence that might convince me you're not pulling this out of your colon?

Why does Germany need Holocaust denial laws? Laws against Nazi literature and symbols? Why does the UK need laws against "inciting racial hatred"?

 

[Giz]

No the problem is double standards. But you knew that and thought you'd be a dick about it anyway. Very constructive.

So much anti semitism and Jew baiting had been seen, both in the uk and in this thread. That you pretend it isn't there, only says something about your biases.

 

[Mycroft]

The problem is that Zionists decided to colonise Palestine therefore creating the dispute over who got to have it - the natives or the colonisers. Without the Zionist project there would have been no problem.

That's one way of looking at it. Another way would be to recognize that it could have belonged to everyone until the issue was forced by a race-war started by invading neighboring countries.

That cack about Haj Amin is just cack. Demonisation. The Arabs didn't go to war in 1948 to kill all the Jews, they went into it to prevent the creation of a Jewish State for Jews over their heads. They were right to fear what the consequences would be - dispossession and exile on a mass, if not total, scale.

Revisionism.

The early colonists were mostly Russian and got there decades before Hitler arrived on the scene, let alone got his anti-semitic programme under way. One which, by the way, did not turn genocidal at the prompting of Haj Amin. Just thought I'd better point that out, a different opinion having been expressed recently.

Right. They were fleeing Russian pogroms. The Russians, "lagging behind" like you say they do, hadn't thought of industrializing genocide the way the Nazi's would 60 years later.

I think it's fair to say you don't really know anything about the Zionist story, so I'll get a bit lectural. To set the stage : in 19th Century Europe Jewish life became normalised in Europe, starting with the French Revolution and the emancipation of French Jews and then the opening of the Italian ghettoes and it was general progress from there. Russia lagged, of course, but that's Russia for you, and Russian anti-semitism was regarded as evidence of its semi-barbarism. By the 1890's this process had produced twin evils, in many conservative Ashkenazi minds, of miscegenation and a decline in deference to the proper Community Leaders.

Zionism is meant to be a counter to that. In their own country, not mixing with anybody else, Jews will rarely marry out, and they will rediscover their duty to their proper Community Leaders who bear the grave responsibility of running the country.

It was supposed to be easier than this.

You get this from the same revisionist sources you used to claim Joachim Prinz was a cheerleader for Hitler? Either way, let's see your evidence.

 

[Ziggurat]

Blah, Blah, Blah.

Good news, dudalb! You have now officially won!

 

[Maya22]

This article is a few months old; however, the information is new to me:

Palestine has new embassy in Brasília

 

[CapelDodger]

1. Carving a Jewish State out of Austria would just be painting a huge bullseye on it.

And the one in Palestine has what on it?

2. You are disturbingly gleeful about the idea of Arab armies, motivated by Nazism, exterminating every Israel man woman and child. FFS they had a Nazi recruiting sergeant as the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

I'm not gleeful at all. You are unsurprsingly driven to see what isn't there.

3. I SERIOUSLY doubt that when Jewish and Arab Nationalism were developing, that there was some multicultural paradise in the region before WW1. Especially when the Ottoman Empire was in the final stages of collapse

Jewish Nationalism wasn't developing in Palestine, or anywhere in the Middle East. Jewish Nationalism - Zionism - was a vanity-project of European Jews who wanted, as Asher Ginzberg put it at the time, to "finally show the Germans that they were as good as them". Palestine at the end of the Ottoman Empire was a prosperous place, not least because central control was faltering and the regions were largely running themselves. This would be the point at which Ziggurat's Orc-Arabs killed all the Jews they could reach in his epic fantasy novel.

There was a problem with banditry in the Jordan valley - now that is a common feature of desert Arabs when central authority wavers - and the Zionists bought quite a lot of land there because it was cheap (they didn't think to enquire why and their Lebanese land-dealers felt no obligation to tell them). This, as it happens, is a source of much of the "terrorism" narrative of the early days.

4. There's a lot less Jews living in Europe than Israel. I wonder why that is...

Mostly because the Zionists made life impossible for Jews in the rest of the Middle East and they had to move there if they couldn't get in elsewhere. There are more Ashkenazi in Europe and the US (homelands of the Zionists) than there are in Israel. The "call to return" is not as strong as Zionists like to believe, it seems.

5. You still haven't addressed my point. How did the jews go from assimilation to gas chambers in "progressive" europe?

There was a regression in Germany and Austria in the 1930's following their defeat in the Great War and their deliberate humiliation afterwards. In the War itself Hitler fought alongside German Jews, French Jews fought against them, Russian Jews fought for Russia, British Jews for Britain and so on. There we see the normalisation of Jewish life in Europe in full swing.

Assimilation is invisible in the grand view because it's a quiet merging of one population with another. That was going on as well.

The Holocaust, and indeed the bizarre re-emergence of anti-semitism as a political force in the 1930's, was a freak. Read up on the process and you'll see how many very unlikely circumstances had to combine for the Holocaust to happen. Right up to the failure before Moscow in the winter of 1941-42 : had it, and the Soviet Union, fallen, Europe's Jews would have been transferred out there, just as Palestine's Arabs were to be re-located.

This idea that every gentile - sorry, "gentile culture", wouldn't want to start sounding racist now - will, at some point, decide to kill all the Jews it can reach just because ... is ridiculous. (It is also, of course, deeply offensive to gentiles, who often think highly of their cultures.) And yet Zionists hold it. Clearly, Zionism rots the brain.

 

[WildCat]

Jewish Nationalism wasn't developing in Palestine, or anywhere in the Middle East. Jewish Nationalism - Zionism - was a vanity-project of European Jews who wanted, as Asher Ginzberg put it at the time, to "finally show the Germans that they were as good as them".

Wow, just wow...

You don't think it had anything at all to do with European Jews being subject to hundreds of years of pogroms and then an industrial-scale genocide in liberal, enlightened Europe?

And let me guess, you're not anti-Jew you're just pro-Palestinian?

 

[CapelDodger]

Capel, you are avoiding my question: When Assimilation was inherently linked to being fed into crematoria, what were the Jews supposed to do next when they could no longer trust European Society as a whole?

Sorry, I missed that we cross-posted back there.

I'm trying to parse it and not getting much. Assimilation is the quiet merging of two populations which have lost sufficient distinction to keep them separated. It has been a common feature of civilisation, not least because it usually occurs in cities, wthout this "inherent" crematoria aspect showing up. And it's not as if crematoria are a recent invention. Nor mass-murder, for that matter, which again is somewhat antithetical to assimilation.

I'll assume that you're referring to the inevitability of the mass-murder of Europe's Jews by modern Europeans whatever had happened in the 20th centur, a belief you hold that is, of course, grossly offensive to gentile Europeans and not shared by European Jews, even though you apparently feel entitled to speak on their behalf.

Is it because their cultures are Christian? That would bring the Americans into the frame, but for all I know that's where you put them. That doesn't really work because, while Christians certainly treated Jews appallingly on occasions and pretty badly in general, they never tried to eliminate them. Unlike every other religious minority that came within their reach, so it's not as if Christians balk at such things.

In truth, your belief in the genocidal anti-semitism of Christian cultures is grossly offensive and nothing else.

 

[CapelDodger]

You don't think it had anything at all to do with European Jews being subject to hundreds of years of pogroms and then an industrial-scale genocide in liberal, enlightened Europe?

120 years ago a group of European racists who happened to be Jewish decided to displace an entire population for their own gratification and the sacred purity of their race. That was because Jewish life in Europe had normalised, leading to greater mixing and, inevitably, matching and mongrelisation. The Zionists were very much against mongrelisation, in common with most European conservatives of the time. Another concern for them was that Jews as citizens related directly to their governments : the self-perpetuating bands of Community Leaders who were previously the interface between Jews and governments lost much of their status and respect. Both these problems could be solved by a Jewish State containing only (or very largely) Jews and ruled by its rightful Community Leaders.

Read the proceedings of the Zionist Congresses, and all the acreage of debate and discussion in the press, pamphlets and books and you will find all of this discussed. What you won't find is a Jewish State as a bolt-hole for a threatened people. You will find Herzl and others arguing vehemently that it wasn't that. And, of course, nobody referred to what would happen forty years in the future due to a bizarre and utterly unpredictable set of circumstances.

And let me guess, you're not anti-Jew you're just pro-Palestinian?

I'm always for the victims, and the Palestinians are the victims of the Zionists. The Zionist plan - clearly stated - to displace the Palestinian population one way or another was widely criticised at the time but still within the pale. It isn't now, yet you continue to defend it while playing "look over here" with the Holocaust and promoting blood libels against the Arabs. It's far from edifying.