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Merged A new argument pro Near Death Experiences

From one layman to another: Biocentrism is as far as I understand a hypothesis invented in order to support the idea of consciousness outside bodies, it is not evidence for it.

And indeed its proponents admit it wants for proof. The guru of the movement, Robert Lanza, has said that certain findings in quantum mechanics would prove his theory, but he doesn't explain how. (Lanza has no qualification in physics either. His field is medicine, but biocentrism has almost nothing to do with the medicine Lanza was trained in.)

The most recent research Jodie refers to by Stefan Gerlich et al. is put forward as just that sort of physics finding, but it has nothing to do with Lanza's claims. Jodie believes it's relevant only because the prophets of biocentrism have said it would be. Oddly enough, when challenged on this alleged connection, Jodie stays faithful to Lanza and suggests we have to impeach Gerlich. As predicted, in Jodie's argument the connection between Gerlich's work and the claims of biocentrism are just assumed. She is blind to the notion of that being the weak point in her argument.
 
You've yet to show me how I'm wrong.

You have yet to show how you're right. Your arguments boil down to nothing more substantial than "Because I say so," and the foundational knowledge that would make that even a rational statement (much less an argument) is missing in your argument. Moreover, you don't dispute its absence. If we all agree that you don't know what you're talking about, then I just have to laugh at the prospect that you think someone else is on the hook to make you seem even wronger.

Or on the hook to accept that right and wrong even have any meaning left in what you're increasingly disclaiming as mere "opinion." If you're simply throwing out ideas based on what you agree is a limited understanding of the facts, then why does it matter that people think you're wrong? Specifically why does it get your goat so acutely that people who do understand a science better than you tell you that it doesn't work the way you suppose?

Looking back, it seems I showed you in great detail, for example, how your claims regarding artificial intelligence were completely misguided. How you envisioned the field to work actually bore no resemblance to what is actually done in it. I explained how you equivocated "dimension" between your supernatural beliefs and the mechanics of quantum field theory. We had to curtail that explanation when it became apparent you lacked the foundational understanding to even begin an informed discussion. Then I pointed out how you had confused "gravity waves" with "gravitational waves." They are entirely different concepts so far removed from each other that they operate at vastly different scales of physical behavior. In fact, if you had been paying attention to those rather detailed rebuttals in the early part of this thread, you would have seen evidence that your presumption of the scope of quantum interference was also in error. Far from any dereliction, I have addressed your various physics and scientific claims at length. In fact the record shows you tend not to address those detailed rebuttals even when repeatedly directed to them.

I've never claimed to be a physics guru, that would be your claim.

No, everyone here seems to agree you are trying to argue from a position of knowledge on that and various other subjects. And at times in your argument in this thread you attempt to correct your critics or suggest that they do not understand your claims, something that would be possible only from a presumption of expertise. Your newfound modesty appeared only when it seemed likely you would be asked to provide details about your physics references. But your pattern is well established. I expect you to return to the pretense of expertise as soon as the heat is off.

You refuted it but that wasn't proof or even evidence.

You seem to be claiming that only a substantial affirmative rebuttal can "really" refute your claims. That is simply not the case. If, as in the example of equivocated "dimensions," your error is a simple one, it needs no lengthy correction. And when, as happened in that case, you can't possibly understand the relevant proof, then your demands for it fall flat.

So explain what they are if you are so concerned with how I'm presenting the concepts as I understand them.

Pointing out your ignorance does not obligate me to educate you personally. There are many fine colleges and universities available, and nothing prevents you from taking and passing an accredited program of study in linear algebra up to eigenvectors and eigenvalues, as is the typical requirement for beginning a study of quantum electrodynamics.

You profess an interest in advanced theoretical physics. I'm boggled at why that didn't translate to first learning the mathematics upon which it is based, and the other foundational sciences. Did you not want to have an accurate understanding? Or were you only interested in a shortcut, a stable of pseudo-scientific catch phrases you could use to intimidate people into thinking you had a rational and scientific basis for your beliefs?

See, in the real world we can't make strong arguments that have to include the "as I understand them" qualification. You either understand it or you don't, and if you don't then you have no right to demand others take seriously what you say is possible or allowed by it. If you're simply asking us to indulge your limited understanding, then no. Just no.

My "concern" over your understanding and representations extends no farther than evaluating your claims. You seem to want your inept stab at science fiction to be taken as putative fact. I have given you the reasons why it should not be. There is no additional responsibility to educate you. The purpose of evaluating your claim is served adequately by noting wherein it errs, and attains nothing further by correcting your deficiency.

Yes, after you have studied linear algebra and first-year quantum mechanics I can explain Gerlich's research to you in meaningful and accurate terms. None of that prospective discussion changes the basic fact that the argument for biocentrism has nothing to do with Gerlich's referenced work. You say they are connected. But you cannot explain how. You likely said so only because Lanza said so, and now that you have made your best play with his ipse dixit you have little left but to insist your critics prove a negative (the non-connection), and deploy a last-ditch equivocation on "natural science" as some sort of magical overriding principle that in some way satisfies any claim to relevance.

I owe you absolutely nothing.

And if that's your attitude toward learning the sciences you profess support your beliefs, then your critics owe you nothing. If you want your critics to take you seriously, you owe them a demonstration of the foundational knowledge that applies to those sciences, acquired through your own diligent effort and demonstrable upon request. Belatedly trying to disclaim them as "opinion" or "as I understand them" doesn't excuse your attempt to shortcut the process. Demanding your critics type out lengthy posts to remedially educate you in facts you couldn't bother to learn before shooting off your mouth is just arrogant.

I've stated opinions only, I make no claims to my expertise, but you, on the other hand have made those claims and yet.............nothing.

You keep saying that, yet look at how much of the prior portions of this thread you have to ignore in order to say it.

You can continue to post "You're Wrong" in the biggest font available but it still means nothing unless you demonstrate for the audience how that person is wrong.

Asked and answered. Your arguments are non sequitur lines of reasoning based on your misunderstanding of the relevant sciences. You disclaim any expertise in the sciences, won't go into further detail, and seek to characterize your reasoning as mere "opinion." I don't see that any additional rebuttal is necessary. Your claim fails for a plethora of reasons that don't require lengthy productions from your critics.

Despite your understandable avoidance of comparisons between what you're doing here and the hypothetical prospect of people malpracticing your profession, I'll try an analogy. Let's say someone with an interest, but no qualifications or demonstrable expertise, in the relevant fields tells you that a mother eating chocolate while pregnant will cause the baby to be born with a dark soul. Let's say he tries to formulate "soul" scientifically and points to a bunch of impressive-looking (though largely unintelligible to a layman) material in the biochemistry, dietetics, and obstetrics that he says proves his claim, but can't explain in detail how.

As in your case, the obvious error is the fallacy of non sequitur; an alleged connection isn't made valid simply by proffering it. When challenged, your interlocutor might demand an affirmative rebuttal -- as you're attempting to do here -- but in this case one is neither necessary nor possible. It is not necessary because a non sequitur rebuttal is simply notice that the original claim fails a necessary test to be an argument. The argument is not cognizable as stated, and the only remedy is the burden of the proponent to fill in the missing pieces. It is certainly not upon the critic to somehow prove the non-connection. Non-connection is the null hypothesis.

An affirmative rebuttal in this analogy is not possible for two reasons. First, it would require laying enough foundational knowledge that the claimant could know (not merely ignorantly disbelieve) his proffered evidence is irrelevant to the claim. Second, it would require affirming and proving other causes for a "dark soul," which is a purely speculative concept in this context.

Your demand for an affirmative refutation is simply distraction from the perfectly adequate refutation on the table.
 
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I have a new argument pro NDE's:

According to current neuroscience many parts of the brain are involved in the experience of the tunnel, the light, the peaceful feeling, the words 'it's not your time yet' etcetera.
The verbal cortex, the occipital lobes etc. All must be involved.

Chances are low that the sequence of electric activity in the brain of hundreds of people are almost exactly the same in such a way that they have the same sort of experiences.

To have an OBE, to see the tunnel, then the light, then the words: 'it's not your time yet' assumes a certain patern of electric activity in the brain.
It must be a big coincidence that the dying brains of all these people are functioning so well that they have the same sequence and patern of electric activity.

It's also about the ontological status of 'the Light' and 'the Tunnel' when many people have the same experience, independent from each other.
Before thinking about NDEs specifically, very few neuroscientist's or philosophers of mind belive that we have to have exactly the same physical pattern in our brains when we think about the same thing. Look up type-type and token-token identity in philo ophy of mind.


As I have seen it put, if you and I think about Paris, it doesn't mean that the same neurons are firing. That's working at the wrong level.

Further: is it empirically true that everyone in the world has the same content if they have an NDE.? Ihaven't seen any research showing that, have you?

If there are similarities, I'd suggest that they arise from common culture, expectations and so on.
 
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Asked and answered. Your arguments are non sequitur lines of reasoning based on your misunderstanding of the relevant sciences. You disclaim any expertise in the sciences, won't go into further detail, and seek to characterize your reasoning as mere "opinion." I don't see that any additional rebuttal is necessary. Your claim fails for a plethora of reasons that don't require lengthy productions from your critics.

Or, in simpler terms, if you want a more detailed reply, post something that merits one.
 
I recall my brother retelling his story about his own experience after his heart stopped.

"Nothing to see here."

Is that a good summation of the thread?
 
Except the claim that the universe exists because of life.

The first principle of biocentrism suggests that what we perceive as reality is a process that involves our consciousness.

I don't have any issues with that so far, do you?

The second principle of biocentrism suggests that our external and internal perceptions are inextricably intertwined. They are different sides of the same coin.


To me this is talking about concrete and abstract thought in that your memories, your culture, your previous experiences color your perceptions and in that respect concrete observation creates an emotional reaction of some sort where by you synthesize the experience.

You can't separate the two types of perception in the working world and a good example of where this goes wrong is in people who have severe autism. Their experience of our world is just as valid as the majority of people who label themselves as normal.

I'm not having any issues with this either.

The third principle of biocentrism states that the behavior of subatomic particles –indeed all particles and objects – is inextricably linked to the presence of an observer. Without the presence of a conscious observer, they at best exist in an undetermined state of probability waves.

This is what physics states is true, so far I have no issue with this.

The 4th principle states that without consciousness, “matter” dwells in an undetermined state of probability. Any universe that could have preceded consciousness only existed in a probability state.


Consciousness = the observer in the 3rd principle. I'm still not seeing a problem here other than an assumption of what happened before our universe popped out of nothing. He assumes that a previous universe worked by the same rules but his point is that, to us, the non-observer, a previous universe would remain in a probability state.

The fifth principle states that the structure of the universe is explainable only through biocentrism. The universe is fine-tuned for life, which makes perfect sense as life creates the universe, not the other way around. The “universe” is simply the complete spatiotemporal logic of the self.

He's referring to all of the constants in nature that have to be just so in order for our universe to exist.

The sixth principle states that time does not have a real existence outside of animal-sense perception. It is the process by which we perceive changes in the universe.

I don't disagree with this, time is relative. It's a construct of the mind. Nothing can be in two places at once so the mind perceives time as a series of events rather than an object being in all places at all times.

The seventh principle suggests that space, like time, is not an object or a thing. Space is another form of our animal understanding and does not have an independent reality. We carry space and time around with us like turtles with shells. Thus, there is no absolute self-existing matrix in which physical events occur independent of life.


Here he says that distance is relative since it shrinks the closer you approach the speed of light. If distance isn't constant then it isn't a fundamental function of the universe, therefore like time, it's simply a construct of the mind.

Oh, good. That makes proving me wrong very easy, then: simply present said research.

You'll find a synopsis of the what the author presented above and the line of reasoning.

No more so than I need to read Dianetics before rejecting Scientology, the Bible before rejecting Christianity, or the various books by homeopaths which try to pretend that their nonsense is based on science. I know the principles. They are demonstrably false.

I read it, although I found it weird, and didn't agree with it. I think it's a good thing to at least see what all the fuss is about.

And yet the strong nuclear force, gravity, and so forth are all irrelevant when it comes to the discussion of neuroscience and consciousness.

I guess you've never heard of magnetic resonance imaging or are familiar with AI research.

I would ask you to present your evidence regarding quantum mechanics being a special case, but as has already been established, you do not have the education necessary to do so.

Pot meet kettle, I think I'm a little bit ahead of you on that subject.

I must repeat this. I am not being hyperbolic. Literally everything we know indicates that there is no life after death and consciousness cannot exist outside of the brain. Indeed, as consciousness is brain activity, the idea itself is nonsensical and self-contradictory.

No, literally everything we know doesn't address the concept at all since we aren't certain what consciousness really is. Self- awareness is the result of brain activity, which in my opinion is a side affect of consciousness since consciousness isn't synonymous with intelligence.

http://psych.utoronto.ca/users/reingold/courses/ai/consciousness.html
 
Jay- You have misrepresented me. I have never claimed expertise in anything to do with physics.Ad hominem is a response to a person's argument by attacking the person's character rather than the logic or content of the argument. Ad hominem remarks are often an example of fallacy, because they are irrelevant to the overall argument.

You took a lot of time and effort to accomplish nothing. I'm sure that a handful here or there on this forum know you but I don't. Neither do the vast majority that are reading this thread. If you aren't concerned with educating me or the masses then all of your posts are simply ad hominem attacks to assuage a very poorly developed ego on your part.
 
The second principle of biocentrism suggests that our external and internal perceptions are inextricably intertwined. They are different sides of the same coin.

To me this is talking about concrete and abstract thought

To anyone else, this is already edging into gibberish, as "external" and "internal" perceptions have not been defined.

The third principle of biocentrism states that the behavior of subatomic particles –indeed all particles and objects – is inextricably linked to the presence of an observer. Without the presence of a conscious observer, they at best exist in an undetermined state of probability waves.

This is what physics states is true

No, it isn't. Neither you nor Lanza understands what "observer" means in the context of quantum mechanics. Consciousness is irrelevant.

Biocentrism as a system collapses here. It was shaky before. Now it is dead, irretrievably and utterly, because the central pillar of its later principles is wrong.

The fifth principle states that the structure of the universe is explainable only through biocentrism.

Bare assertion on its face, even if it weren't demonstrably wrong.

The sixth principle states that time does not have a real existence outside of animal-sense perception. It is the process by which we perceive changes in the universe.

Blatantly, absolutely, laughably wrong. Literally everything we know about physics contradicts this, including relativity.

Biocentrism is gibberish.

I guess you've never heard of magnetic resonance imaging or are familiar with AI research.

I would be willing to bet that I am far more knowledgeable on both subjects than you are (and I say this as someone who is admittedly an expert in neither), and neither one supports your contention that quantum mechanics is relevant to discussions of consciousness.

Pot meet kettle, I think I'm a little bit ahead of you on that subject.

On quantum mechanics? No.

No, literally everything we know doesn't address the concept at all

Bluntly false, again.

I have to wonder whether or not you have any more education on the subject of neuroscience and consciousness than you do on quantum mechanics.
 
Jay- You have misrepresented me. I have never claimed expertise in anything to do with physics.

Asked and answered.

You keep rewriting my accusation in straw-man fashion to say you've never "claimed" to be an expert. But in fact you habitually argue from a position of presumed expertise whether you explicitly state it or not. I told you what aspects of your argument convey that impression, and you haven't addressed or disputed any of them. You keep returning to this same straw man. You don't have to distinctly claim to be an expert in order to act like you think you are one.

Nor do you walk a clear line. You say you enjoy reading about theoretical physics. That's not typical fare for nurse-midwives. How is this to be interpreted except as some sort of claim to special expertise, however tentative or deferential? You imply you have some sort of justification to incorporate principles from science "as [you] understand them" into your parapsychological theories as proof. But then you complain when your understanding (and therefore the relevance of the science to the theory) is found to be inadequate and the proof unconvincing. How is that to be interpreted in any way other than expecting others to validate your limited understanding?

Nor is this just an isolated opinion. Look at how many of your critics perceive your argument to be based on professions of expertise, and subsequently urge you not to imply expertise you don't have.

Nor do I believe your protests. More than once I have turned the situation around and asked how you would react if someone were making analogous arguments in your presence regarding your profession. Your assiduous silence on those analogies makes it hard to conclude you believe your own hype.

No, I don't agree that you are being misrepresented. But I will agree that in past debates you have redefined your footing back and forth, motte-and-bailey fashion, to avoid scrutiny. Backpedaling does tend to make the original criticism look misplaced.

But if you're content admitting that you have no expertise in advanced theoretical physics, then I think we can proceed on that basis.

If you aren't concerned with educating me or the masses then all of your posts are simply ad hominem attacks...

I don't have to educate you or the masses in order to find flaws in your argument. I've explained where you can go to remedy the deficiency in your understanding. Nor did I agree to perform that service as a condition of my participation here. You are trying to impose inappropriate roles on your critics. Your deficiency of understanding has but one cause and one remedy, both of them your responsibility.

As to whether my posts are ad hominem, report any you feel are inappropriate for moderation. You've plainly stated that your arguments are based on the sciences you cite "as [you] understand them." Yet when that explicitly stated premise is questioned -- to wit, determining that your understanding is not sufficient to support the claim made -- then all of a sudden you want to cry foul. If you're calling out your understanding as premise of the argument you're making, then your understanding becomes a legitimate point of criticism.

At one time I did spend considerable effort trying to educate you on matters pertaining to your scientific claims. But when I couldn't get you to acknowledge those efforts or incorporate them into your thinking, I realized its futility. So your incessant demands to be individually tutored at the hands of your critics have to be tempered with your tepid reaction to previous attempts.

...to assuage a very poorly developed ego on your part.

Are you now going to pretend to be a clinical psychologist?
 
Being schooled by JayUtah, from any side: what an education! This life drowned in tepid minds and despair; that such people are out there! Well, it gives air to tired lungs.

Note to self: type less, read more.
 
The third principle of biocentrism states that the behavior of subatomic particles –indeed all particles and objects – is inextricably linked to the presence of an observer. Without the presence of a conscious observer, they at best exist in an undetermined state of probability waves.

No, no, no. As Nonpareil has already noted, this is known to be rubbish. "Observer" has a specific meaning within quantum mechanics. It is nothing more than a statistical abstraction in the model, not a "thing" to which consciousness or other such properties can be arbitrarily attached. Lanza's statement is like saying the dependent variable in a simple algebraic function is somehow conscious.

The observer of a quantum system is simply another wavefunction that entangles with the system under observation, leading to a new system of superpositions. That is all that's meant when we say the observer affects the system. There is no requirement, allowance, or even relevance for any notion of consciousness in this formulation. Lanza has simply tacked it on. It's no more valid to say an quantum observer can be conscious than it is to say it can be blue or covered in barbecue sauce. These are simply not the kinds of properties an observer has or can have in the model.

The application of an observer perturbs the state. It does not, as Lanza erroneously claims, cause the state to change its fundamental nature depending on the presence or absence of an observer. The entangled system continues to obey the basic principles of electrodynamics, albeit in a new (observed) form. The operative property of the new system is its degrees of freedom, and therefore what eigenstates are allowed to compete for statistical dominance. Lanza's concept of the observed system is a rather common layman's error in dealing with wavefunctions. The wavefunction never stops being a wavefunction. What is referred to as the "collapse" of the wavefunction is rather a misnomer. At each of various eigenstates we can begin to think about the actual physical variables of a particle such as momentum. This is fundamental quantum theory.

And this is why it is absolutely crucial that the appropriate branches of mathematics be not only studied but mastered with prodigious proficiency before trying to study quantum mechanics. Quantum theory is entirely statistical. The entities it defines do not exist in any meaningful way except as their mathematical abstractions. These models indeed predict useful observable outcomes, but it is a classic mistake to endow the abstractions with some sort of physical existence, behavior, or property. This is why quantum mechanics isn't taught -- even to physics majors -- until the sophomore year. It requires an abstraction of thought that takes quite a while to master, and requires explicitly laying aside the crutches of an intuitive layman's approach. Quantum electrodynamics is ruthlessly counterintuitive.

This is what physics states is true, so far I have no issue with this.

How are you an authority on what physics states? Even within the short space of half an hour you can't decide whether your physics declarations should command any respect. Lanza has fallen into the same pitfall that many laymen do when trying to reason about quantum theory, and you have blindly followed him into the same pit.

I guess you've never heard of magnetic resonance imaging or are familiar with AI research.

And here you go, smugly suggesting that you know enough about AI research to take your critics to task for it. And you also suggest that "AI research" somehow supports some particular claim you made. When you set out arguments like this, how do you expect to escape the perception that you are professing expertise?
 
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The third principle of biocentrism states that the behavior of subatomic particles –indeed all particles and objects – is inextricably linked to the presence of an observer. Without the presence of a conscious observer, they at best exist in an undetermined state of probability waves.
It is amazing how the poor choice of the word 'observer' has opened up all sorts of faulty arguments. In this forum alone we regularly have to deal with it. I believe Maartenn has used it, and Daniel uses it all the time to "prove" that God exists.

I believe that whoever coined the terms 'observer' and 'observation' (was it Heisenberg?) actually intended it to mean observations by humans, and that it was only later moved away from that interpretation because of the inconsistencies that resulted.

The fact that a few real physicists such as Henry Stapp think that consciousness plays a role in QM gives some credence to the idea.

Personally, I favour interpretations that have no collapse of the wave function, and consequently no observers. In this thread it seems to be the position that we should only debate if we are accredited experts in the field, so I will point out that my choice of favourite interpretation is an uneducated guess.
 
No, no, no. As Nonpareil has already noted, this is known to be rubbish. "Observer" has a specific meaning within quantum mechanics. It is nothing more than a statistical abstraction in the model, not a "thing" to which consciousness or other such properties can be arbitrarily attached. Lanza's statement is like saying the dependent variable in a simple algebraic function is somehow conscious.

The observer of a quantum system is simply another wavefunction that entangles with the system under observation, leading to a new system of superpositions. That is all that's meant when we say the observer affects the system. There is no requirement, allowance, or even relevance for any notion of consciousness in this formulation. Lanza has simply tacked it on. It's no more valid to say an quantum observer can be conscious than it is to say it can be blue or covered in barbecue sauce. These are simply not the kinds of properties an observer has or can have in the model.

The application of an observer perturbs the state. It does not, as Lanza erroneously claims, cause the state to change its fundamental nature depending on the presence or absence of an observer. The entangled system continues to obey the basic principles of electrodynamics, albeit in a new (observed) form. The operative property of the new system is its degrees of freedom, and therefore what eigenstates are allowed to compete for statistical dominance. Lanza's concept of the observed system is a rather common layman's error in dealing with wavefunctions. The wavefunction never stops being a wavefunction. What is referred to as the "collapse" of the wavefunction is rather a misnomer. At each of various eigenstates we can begin to think about the actual physical variables of a particle such as momentum. This is fundamental quantum theory.

And this is why it is absolutely crucial that the appropriate branches of mathematics be not only studied but mastered with prodigious proficiency before trying to study quantum mechanics. Quantum theory is entirely statistical. The entities it defines do not exist in any meaningful way except as their mathematical abstractions. These models indeed predict useful observable outcomes, but it is a classic mistake to endow the abstractions with some sort of physical existence, behavior, or property. This is why quantum mechanics isn't taught -- even to physics majors -- until the sophomore year. It requires an abstraction of thought that takes quite a while to master, and requires explicitly laying aside the crutches of an intuitive layman's approach. Quantum electrodynamics is ruthlessly counterintuitive.

Thank you, this is what I was hoping to get from you.

And here you go, smugly suggesting that you know enough about AI research to take your critics to task for it. And you also suggest that "AI research" somehow supports some particular claim you made. When you set out arguments like this, how do you expect to escape the perception that you are professing expertise?

Because I would say so if that were the case. As for AI, I'm referring to that hypothetical point in which we can download our consciousness, the supposed coming singularity. It's relative to the topic if you are considering consciousness that can survive without a body.
 
Thank you, this is what I was hoping to get from you.

You're welcome, and I hope it helps you understand why biocentrism and Gerlich are unrelated.

However I don't agree that what I posted above is what you were hoping to get. What you asked for previously was an general explanation of degrees of freedom and dimensionality, which -- as I said -- require considerable instruction and practice. Your newly posted claim was a specific statement from Lanza, to which an encapsulated reply is possible.

If you want a comprehensive discussion of dimensionality, degrees of freedom, and other general topics that are crucial to quantum theory, you'll still have to get that from the place everyone else gets it -- proper classroom education.

Because I would say so if that were the case.

No, I don't think you would. You rely on the dichotomy between claiming that you have expertise (which you don't do) and simply acting as if you were an expert (which you do). This lets you do things like browbeat Nonpareil when smugness suits your argument, yet back away from any obligation to demonstrate expertise. When your primary defense is "I never claimed to be an expert," I have no faith that any such declaration would ever leave your lips in debate. It would defuse your defense.

As for AI, I'm referring to that hypothetical point in which we can download our consciousness, the supposed coming singularity. It's relative to the topic if you are considering consciousness that can survive without a body.

And that's not AI research. That's just science fiction.
 
It is amazing how the poor choice of the word 'observer' has opened up all sorts of faulty arguments.

Agreed. "Measurement" is the preferred term.

I believe that whoever coined the terms 'observer' and 'observation' (was it Heisenberg?) actually intended it to mean observations by humans, and that it was only later moved away from that interpretation because of the inconsistencies that resulted.

Close enough. Early formulations of measurement (von Neumann) were simplistic and allowed few degrees of freedom. Hence a non-probabilistic element was coined to close the gap, and this somehow became synonymous with the notion of "consciousness." But as different measurement models evolved, the gap was closed without the need to appeal to some "crutch" concept.

It sticks around in new age circles, which I guess would include some classical religions, and remains popular among people who try to connect claims of supernatural phenomena with hard science.

The fact that a few real physicists such as Henry Stapp think that consciousness plays a role in QM gives some credence to the idea.

Not really. The Stapp model is inconsistent and exists only as shored up by a host of tacked-on elements and assumptions. As such it has practically zero traction in physics.

In this thread it seems to be the position that we should only debate if we are accredited experts in the field, so I will point out that my choice of favourite interpretation is an uneducated guess.

Take heart; not everyone argues as pretentiously as Jodie. Therefore not everyone merits as harsh a critical approach. You've presented a view with which I disagree, but you have done so without being disagreeable or high-handed. The ideal is not to foster discussion only among chartered professionals, but rather simply not to overstep one's ken.
 
I don't get the impression that is the problem at all since there is nothing pretentious,about me. You have to understand that typing on a forum is an autistic form of communication since you can't see expressions or body language. All you had to do was answer my genuine questions.I approach these threads as discussions not necessarily as debates. That isn't a requisite of the rules but many here think it is. The only other conclusion I can draw when someone becomes surly is that they have some kind of revulsion for the topic in general.
 
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No, I don't think you would. You rely on the dichotomy between claiming that you have expertise (which you don't do) and simply acting as if you were an expert (which you do). This lets you do things like browbeat Nonpareil when smugness suits your argument, yet back away from any obligation to demonstrate expertise. When your primary defense is "I never claimed to be an expert," I have no faith that any such declaration would ever leave your lips in debate. It would defuse your defense..

Rather than continue to make false claims please link the post where I claimed this supposed expertise. You won't find it.
 
Rather than continue to make false claims please link the post where I claimed this supposed expertise. You won't find it.
JayUtah specifically says in the second sentence of the very post you quoted that you don't claim expertise, you just act as if you have it.
 

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