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Are laws against corruption unconstitutional?

Puppycow

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Apparently the Supreme Court is considering an appeal by former Virginia governor Bob McDonnell who was convicted for corruption. If he wins his appeal, it could mean that essentially bribery of public officials would be protected by the constitution.

There’s No Such Thing as a Free Rolex

THIS week, the Supreme Court heard McDonnell v. United States, the case of Bob McDonnell, the former governor of Virginia who is appealing his 2014 conviction for public corruption. Although the court’s ruling is not expected until June, in Wednesday’s hearing several justices seemed set on undermining a central, longstanding federal bribery principle: that officials should not accept cash or gifts in exchange for giving special treatment to a constituent.

Justice Stephen G. Breyer dismissed the idea that, in the absence of a strong limiting principle, federal law could criminalize a governor who accepted a private constituent’s payment in exchange for intervening with a constituent problem. Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr. expressed disbelief that an official requesting agency action on behalf of a big donor would be a problem. A majority seemed ready to defend pay-to-play as a fundamental feature of our constitutional system of government.

In September 2014, after a six-week trial, a federal jury convicted Mr. McDonnell and his wife, Maureen, on multiple counts of extortion under the Hobbs Act, a key statute against political corruption, and honest-services fraud. It was not a complicated case. Jonnie R. Williams Sr., the chief executive of a dietary supplement manufacturer, Star Scientific, had showered the governor and first lady with gifts in return for favors.

We’re not talking about a few ham sandwiches. The McDonnells took expensive vacations, a Rolex, a $20,000 shopping spree, $15,000 in catering expenses for a daughter’s wedding and tens of thousands of dollars in private loans. In exchange, the governor eagerly promoted Mr. Williams’s product, a supplement called Anatabloc: hosting an event at the governor’s mansion, passing out samples and encouraging universities to do research.

Hopefully the author is reading too much into the questions asked by the justices at oral arguments. I would be shocked if this appeal isn't slapped down.

The former governor has claimed on appeal that he had a First Amendment right to accept these gifts. He also disputed that holding meetings, hosting events at the governor’s mansion and recommending research were “official acts.” There were quids, he argued, but no quos.

And the justices seem poised to agree. Their main worry appeared to be that Mr. McDonnell’s prosecution had criminalized what they perceived as normal, day-to-day political behavior — seemingly more concerned for the chilling effect of federal bribery law on an elected official who accepts a Rolex than for the citizens who are hurt by such self-serving behavior.
 
Apparently the Supreme Court is considering an appeal by former Virginia governor Bob McDonnell who was convicted for corruption. If he wins his appeal, it could mean that essentially bribery of public officials would be protected by the constitution.

There’s No Such Thing as a Free Rolex



Hopefully the author is reading too much into the questions asked by the justices at oral arguments. I would be shocked if this appeal isn't slapped down.
I guess it hinges on whether they were official acts. Did the governor use the apparatus of the state for personal gain?

Or did he merely exploit the perception of prestige that attached to him by virtue of holding the office?

Is the governor's mansion only a government facility? Or is it also a private residence?

I think this case may be more complicated than it first appears.
 
I guess it hinges on whether they were official acts. Did the governor use the apparatus of the state for personal gain?

Or did he merely exploit the perception of prestige that attached to him by virtue of holding the office?
..,.,,.,.

Sounds more like the latter than the former- based solely on the quote in the OP.

What, is it illegal for me to pay the Governor to mow my lawn? Or act as a spokesman for my supplement?

Does the state have any law against the gov taking on an outside job?

To the OP- where was the corruption?
 
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Sounds more like the latter than the former- based solely on the quote in the OP.

What, is it illegal for me to pay the Governor to mow my lawn? Or act as a spokesman for my supplement?

Does the state have any law against the gov taking on an outside job?

To the OP- where was the corruption?

I mean, I have some questions. It looks ethically shaky. I wonder about conflicts of interest. I am pretty sure that I don't want my elected officials to be working other jobs, especially if they're leveraging the prestige of their elected position, and its trappings, to work the other job.

But I think it's a weak case, based on what's presented so far. I think it's unseemly, but I'm not yet convinced it's corruption. I think that the kinds of questions I have are the kinds of questions that are best decided by the courts, and by the Supreme Court, if necessary. I think the OP is pretty clealry begging the question. The issue for me isn't whether laws against corruption are unconstitutional, but whether this actually is corruption under the law, or a unconstitutional abridgement of the freedom of speech.
 
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I guess it hinges on whether they were official acts. Did the governor use the apparatus of the state for personal gain?
Looks like it.
In one instance, Mr. McDonnell emailed Mr. Williams asking about a $50,000 loan, and six minutes later sent another email to his staff, requesting an update on Anatabloc scientific research.



theprestige said:
I think it's unseemly, but I'm not yet convinced it's corruption.
If this isn't corruption then what is?

Corruption
Government, or 'political', corruption occurs when an office-holder or other governmental employee acts in an official capacity for personal gain.
Doing 'favors' for a constituent who showers you with gifts is the most common form of corruption.

Bribery
Bribery involves the improper use of gifts and favours in exchange for personal gain. This is also known as kickbacks or, in the Middle East, as baksheesh. It is the most common form of corruption. The types of favours given are diverse and may include money, gifts, sexual favours, company shares, entertainment, employment and political benefits. The personal gain that is given can be anything from actively giving preferential treatment to having an indiscretion or crime overlooked.
 
Here's another take on the court's proceedings:
http://www.scotusblog.com/2016/04/argument-analysis-anti-corruption-law-in-trouble/

I don't know enough about the law in question to have a strong opinion about this specific case, but I do believe very strongly in the idea of limiting principles, and I don't think the original link gives due consideration to that idea and its importance in this case, merely mentioning it in passing.
 
Sounds more like the latter than the former- based solely on the quote in the OP.

What, is it illegal for me to pay the Governor to mow my lawn? Or act as a spokesman for my supplement?

Does the state have any law against the gov taking on an outside job?

To the OP- where was the corruption?

The part about them accepting lavish gifts is not under dispute.

The governor mowing your lawn would not be an official act, I'm pretty sure that hypothetical would be OK, although it's kind of silly.

You can read the indictment and come to your own conclusion:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2014/images/01/21/mcdonnell.indictment.pdf

What he tried to do is to get the University of Virginia to do a study of this drug that would be funded with tobacco settlement money.
 
http://www.scotusblog.com/2016/04/friday-round-up-317/#more-242224

Friday round-up
On Wednesday the Court heard oral arguments in the challenge by former Virginia governor Bob McDonnell to his fraud convictions. Commentary comes from Steven Mazie of The Economist, who suggests that a ruling reversing McDonnell’s “conviction or ordering a new trial with sharply constrained jury guidelines would be, more than anything, a pragmatic bow to the way politics in America functions”; Kenneth Jost of Jost on Justice, who contends that “a broadly written decision to throw out the convictions will hamper future public corruption prosecutions and make the practice of ‘pay for play’ all the more common than it already is: mostly legal if done with a wink and a nod”; Noah Bookbinder and Nancy Gertner in a podcast for the National Constitution Center; and Kenneth Gross and Jeffrey Bellin in a podcast with Bloomberg Law’s June Grasso. And in The National Law Journal (subscription or registration required), Tony Mauro reports that, on the same day as the argument, three Justices “praised deputy U.S. solicitor general Michael Dreeben” – who argued on behalf of the United States in the case – at a reception hosted by Georgetown’s Supreme Court Institute.
 
Should every Bernie or Trump supporter who sent him $20 be guilty of corruption if, should their candidate win, they pass laws that the supporters wanted?

This corruption concept is a sliding scale. Giving money to gain the attention of a politician for your own pet political concerns cuts off just where, exactly?

If your concern is politicians wielding power to get in the way of stuff to be paid to get back out of the way, well, hell, that is pretty much my central thesis on these forums. It's been around for thousands of years, and has bred the secular government the same way donations bred religious organizations. The Jimmy Stewart type honestly here to help you is the exception, the largely fraudulent meme cover story for this behavior.

The solution is to reduce the power of government so there's less to be fought over.


In any case, Kwame Kilpatrick, former mayor of Detroit, sits in prison for real corruption, where he demanded money to be considered for city contracts, a pay-2-play system, and other stuff. He also had a "charity" where people could "donate", that his relatives ran for high salaries, and the renting of someone's room as an office for $4000 a month, IIRC.
 
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Here's another take on the court's proceedings:
http://www.scotusblog.com/2016/04/argument-analysis-anti-corruption-law-in-trouble/

I don't know enough about the law in question to have a strong opinion about this specific case, but I do believe very strongly in the idea of limiting principles, and I don't think the original link gives due consideration to that idea and its importance in this case, merely mentioning it in passing.

So we can get corruption limited to only case of where money is explicitly exchanged hands for a specific gain. Simply paying off politicians so that they will do what you want them to with out explicitly connecting the two events will not be a crime in the future.
 
Should every Bernie or Trump supporter who sent him $20 be guilty of corruption if, should their candidate win, they pass laws that the supporters wanted?

This corruption concept is a sliding scale. Giving money to gain the attention of a politician for your own pet political concerns cuts off just where, exactly?

If your concern is politicians wielding power to get in the way of stuff to be paid to get back out of the way, well, hell, that is pretty much my central thesis on these forums. It's been around for thousands of years, and has bred the secular government the same way donations bred religious organizations. The Jimmy Stewart type honestly here to help you is the exception, the largely fraudulent meme cover story for this behavior.

The solution is to reduce the power of government so there's less to be fought over.


In any case, Kwame Kilpatrick, former mayor of Detroit, sits in prison for real corruption, where he demanded money to be considered for city contracts, a pay-2-play system, and other stuff. He also had a "charity" where people could "donate", that his relatives ran for high salaries, and the renting of someone's room as an office for $4000 a month, IIRC.

Got it only amature corruption should be illegal. We need to go back to the good old days where lobiests can give unlimited gifts to legislators as long as there is no explicit quid pro quo.
 
Apparently the Supreme Court is considering an appeal by former Virginia governor Bob McDonnell who was convicted for corruption. If he wins his appeal, it could mean that essentially bribery of public officials would be protected by the constitution.

Isn't it already? Money is speech, after all.
 
So we can get corruption limited to only case of where money is explicitly exchanged hands for a specific gain. Simply paying off politicians so that they will do what you want them to with out explicitly connecting the two events will not be a crime in the future.

That is not the only possible alternative. There must be a limiting principle, but there is more than one way we can construct what that limiting principle is. For example, we could outlaw gifts to politicians above some set dollar value, regardless of what the gift was for. That has a clear limiting principle: it doesn't apply to gifts below that value.
 
That is not the only possible alternative. There must be a limiting principle, but there is more than one way we can construct what that limiting principle is. For example, we could outlaw gifts to politicians above some set dollar value, regardless of what the gift was for. That has a clear limiting principle: it doesn't apply to gifts below that value.

The supreme court just doesn't get how corrupt politicians operate, they expect a dirrect quid pro quo and that is rarely what you get, so they cut out the laws that were targeting the more round about forms of corruption that are favored.

My favorite example is how the New Jersey govenor plays by different rules than their legislator or congress. See getting really expensive vacations paid for by foreign soveriegns wouldn't be legal for representatives in New Jersey or congress but it doesn't apply to governors.
 
The supreme court just doesn't get how corrupt politicians operate, they expect a dirrect quid pro quo and that is rarely what you get, so they cut out the laws that were targeting the more round about forms of corruption that are favored.

I don't think you get how the courts operate. I just gave you an example of how to do exactly the sort of thing you want done without running into the problem that the current law faces.

My favorite example is how the New Jersey govenor plays by different rules than their legislator or congress. See getting really expensive vacations paid for by foreign soveriegns wouldn't be legal for representatives in New Jersey or congress but it doesn't apply to governors.

If it wouldn't be legal for legislators to do it but it is legal for the governor to do it, then the problem is not with the courts, but with the way the law is written. That's a failure of the legislature, not the courts.
 
Got it only amature corruption should be illegal. We need to go back to the good old days where lobiests can give unlimited gifts to legislators as long as there is no explicit quid pro quo.

The exact opposite of what I said. Please stay away from your mental models of reality forged in the heart of left-wing echo chambers and address reality instead.
 
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If this isn't corruption then what is?

Corruption
Doing 'favors' for a constituent who showers you with gifts is the most common form of corruption.

Bribery

The "favors" have to be official acts. Did he sign a bill? Veto a bill? Direct a state agency under his authority as governor to do or not do something? Etc. So he asked his staff to look into a topic of personal interest to him. I'm sure most politicians do this from time to time. He used the governor's residence to host a party promoting a topic of personal interest to him. This might be corruption, I guess? I mean, the man has to live somewhere. It seems absurd to say that everything he does there is somehow an official act of government.

Bribery, you say? Alright, then: What official act was he bribed to perform?
 
The "favors" have to be official acts. Did he sign a bill? Veto a bill? Direct a state agency under his authority as governor to do or not do something? Etc. So he asked his staff to look into a topic of personal interest to him. I'm sure most politicians do this from time to time. He used the governor's residence to host a party promoting a topic of personal interest to him. This might be corruption, I guess? I mean, the man has to live somewhere. It seems absurd to say that everything he does there is somehow an official act of government.

Bribery, you say? Alright, then: What official act was he bribed to perform?

So you think political corruption there needs to be a direct quid pro quo relationship between the bribe and the action? Otherwise it is legal?

This would strip out a lot of ethics rules.
 
So you think political corruption there needs to be a direct quid pro quo relationship between the bribe and the action? Otherwise it is legal?
Not at all.

I'm saying that public officials are also still private individuals, and that not every act taken by a public official is automatically an official act. Even acts for which they are compensated may still just be the acts of a private individual.

Without any official act for the quo, where is the corruption? Is it that he moonlighted as a supplement promoter? Is it that he hosted events at the governor's mansion, as a private citizen?

Without the quo, where is the bribe, exactly?

It's reasonable to suspect corruption, here, but I wonder if you can show what were the actual corrupt acts.

This would strip out a lot of ethics rules.
I guess it would depend on the ethics rules.
 

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