The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer

[PartSkeptic]

Huh? It was you who brought Krauss (whoever he is) into the thread.

Sigh. I have to be sooo careful with thinking people will follow some of my statements and will already know the background to the phrase.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Some general notes.

Lawrence Krauss - A universe from nothing. Then he says there must have been something, but states it cannot be God because physics has no driving intelligence.

The flagellum motor has a rotor, bearings, commutator, brushes, and a speed control mechanism. And is self-assembling. Unremarkable - really? It just happens to resemble a modern technology item of engineering?

What forces of natural selection cause this happen? Just the law of big numbers? So one could expect a self-assembling Boeing if we wait long enough? And unicorns in the closet?

Never ending source of comedy. One more person who misunderstands natural selection.

There is no END GOAL. Try to push that through the fog of whatever religious indoctrination you happen to find yourself in.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Admit it. Those are song lyrics.

Thanks. I claim copyright. I just need the tune/melody. Maybe divine inspiration will strike me.

Disclaimer... I am merely jesting. Jest jesting!

 

[MikeG]

Okay. This might help answer your question, since it is in the same league as the exam question "Is hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer with proof."

You do realise that this is academia laughing at the whole concept of hell, don't you?

 

[PartSkeptic]

Never ending source of comedy. One more person who misunderstands natural selection.

Let me see. Entity replicates itself. Mutation happens and new entity has to survive and prosper. It does. This occurs over and over and amazing life-forms emerge. I am okay with that, and always have been.

Here is where we differ: You think there is no limit to the intricacy/complexity of these forms. Do you think that given enough time that little organic motor will then be incorporated into a little organic carriage with four little organic wheels? It could "outrun" it's natural predators much better. Add an organic gearbox also to improve acceleration.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Wrong. A commutator is a very specific thing in an electrical motor or generator. You can't assign mechanical names to biological parts just to back up a claim that one is the same as the other.

Have you seen the electron-photomicrographs of the thing?

Compare it to a commutated DC motor. Do your research.

 

[abaddon]

Thanks. I claim copyright. I just need the tune/melody. Maybe divine inspiration will strike me.

Disclaimer... I am merely jesting. Jest jesting!

Cherry picking without response to the meat of the post. How quintessentially religious of you.

 

[PartSkeptic]

How is this anecdote relevant? Well, I am an atheist, so the whole idea that morality derives from religion is obvious crap.

Where does it derive from? (Serious question)

Really, the whole notion that atheists have no moral compass is utter rot. Do not play that game with me.

I did not write that. You are re-phrasing incorrectly.

 

[MikeG]

Where does it derive from? (Serious question)....

You claim to be a sceptic, so you should be able to answer this. There is nothing absolute about morals. They change with time and geography, culture and experience. They are simply the way we are taught to behave by our parents, and the reason they exist is to enable society to function without turning into a Mad Max film.

 

[PartSkeptic]

Cherry picking without response to the meat of the post. How quintessentially religious of you.

Me? Just me? What has religion got to do with it? It is all relative from where I sit. Observer A says to observer B as he passes by.

Did you consider that A) I do not have the time at the moment B) a little light-hearted selection (sorry - cherry picking) was all I was trying to achieve.

 

[Garrette]

You claim to be a sceptic, so you should be able to answer this. There is nothing absolute about morals. They change with time and geography, culture and experience. They are simply the way we are taught to behave by our parents, and the reason they exist is to enable society to function without turning into a Mad Max film.

And even in Mad Max films there are driving morals within cohesive groups, and to an extent between them. As you say, they function specifically to hold those groups together thereby allowing not only group but individual survival.

 

[PartSkeptic]

You claim to be a sceptic, so you should be able to answer this. There is nothing absolute about morals. They change with time and geography, culture and experience. They are simply the way we are taught to behave by our parents, and the reason they exist is to enable society to function without turning into a Mad Max film.

So Lying could be okay? And Murder could be okay?

And failing to honor our parents would mean we can reject their teachings of morality anyhow? As the movies are "teaching" the children of the West today?

And then... their parents taught them... and their parents taught them... and at one time everyone believed in a God or Gods. Hmmm.

 

[Donn]

So Lying could be okay? And Murder could be okay?.

He meant morals are relative to society. Which is not anarchy.

 

[John Nowak]

So Lying could be okay?

Certainly. Honesty is important, but if you hide Anne Frank in your attic and lie about it under oath, I'd be the first to applaud you.

And Murder could be okay?

"Murder" by definition is a crime. The Bible explicitly calls out capital offences I would consider trivial. Today enforcing these rules would be considered murder.

And failing to honor our parents would mean we can reject their teachings of morality anyhow?

Have you ever met a bad parent? Some parents should certainly have their moral teachings rejected.

As the movies are "teaching" the children of the West today?

I'm not sure how often this actually happens. Perhaps an experienced trial lawyer could tell us how often he runs into a client who tries to defend his behavior based on a movie.

 

[abaddon]

Me? Just me? What has religion got to do with it? It is all relative from where I sit. Observer A says to observer B as he passes by.

Did you consider that A) I do not have the time at the moment B) a little light-hearted selection (sorry - cherry picking) was all I was trying to achieve.

No. not just you, just you and the other gullible fools that bought that t-shirt.

Now I, as an atheist gave you a working example of how I assisted a fellow human for no reward whatsoever, simply out of pure altruism. I understand why you are doing your level best to avoid that. It conflicts with your weird belief in the tooth fairy.

No matter, if you wish, I will contact said bloke and have him post in broken engrish if you so demand. I am pretty sure he would do so.

The bottom line is that you cannot explain why I, as an atheist, would voluntarily do those things at my own expense for no reason.

Personally, I know my own motivations. But in your plain caricature of atheism, you somehow cannot figure altruism. I am wondering why that is?

 

[MikeG]

So Lying could be okay? And Murder could be okay?

And failing to honor our parents would mean we can reject their teachings of morality anyhow? As the movies are "teaching" the children of the West today?

This has all been dealt with rather well, but let me just add this: why are you asking these questions? You have sceptic as part of your screen name, so surely you have considered these things? Surely you haven't just swallowed whatever story some churchman fed you, have you? When you've satisfactorily explained church support for slavery, or, say, the Dutch Reformed Church's support for apartheid, then maybe we can come back to discuss the changing nature of morals.

In my mother's time, it was immoral to get divorced, even if your drunken husband beat you to a pulp every Friday and shagged his secretary every weekend. In my father's time, it was immoral to have a child out of wedlock, so rape victims who got pregnant were sometimes forced to marry the rapist (remember shotgun weddings?....they were a thing). I'd say it's a damn good thing that morals change, and so would you if you thought about it for a second.

And then... their parents taught them... and their parents taught them... and at one time everyone believed in a God or Gods. Hmmm.

Got any evidence that at one time everyone believed in god or gods? There is irrefutable evidence that this isn't so, but I'd be interested in why you think it OK to post yet another bland assumption which is just wrong. As for the first part, that's evolution in action: if everyone absorbs 99% of what their parents tell them, but changes just one tiny little thing.......

 

[Slowvehicle]

That is called happy circumstance.

If you wish to argue by anecdote, fine.

I once shared a house with a Polish bloke. He was a jobbing carpenter. Anyhoo, he chose to drive uninsured and, inevitably, cops stopped him and seized his car. When told this tale of, I laughed. That's what you get for flouting the law. However, the seized car contained all of his tools of his trade and his broken english was insufficient to secure the release of same.

So I made it my business to find out what was required to release the content of the car, secured the requisite documentation on his behalf, drove him to the pound, loaded his gear into my car, drove him home and unloaded the gear from my car.

I asked for nothing nor expected anything. I simply helped a bloke I had known for less than a year out of sheer niceness.

How is this anecdote relevant? Well, I am an atheist, so the whole idea that morality derives from religion is obvious crap.

Indeed, at one point he owed me 1,500 bucks in loans I had made to him. He paid all of it back, albeit slowly. I loaned him that money in good "faith" (haha).
<small snip>

"...Not as a ladder from earth to Heaven, not as a witness to any creed,
But simple service simply given to his own kind in their common need..."

GoodONya, Ya Bonzer Dread One Ya!

 

[Desert Fox]

I said, and you highlight:
Simple? Surely you jest?

It seems to me that you are not really understanding what he wrote. What is being talked about has been described as the quantum foam where "nothing" is a froth of virtual particles appearing and then annihilating each other.

The thing is that the energy is still zero

 

[Donn]

It almost seems, sometimes, as if "witnessing" is designed to make sure people stay without "the fold" at all costs...

By their rancor, wilfully blinkered, do they prove the other as unworthy as first promulgated.

Do I suffer the same flaw? I fear so, but try to recognize it. Youth displays such cliques as green branches bend easily-to.
With years, we rise above our initial animal by gradual shame at our foppery in petty circles — if we bend towards introspection.

Alas, many are caught in stronger narratives of seeming; they can't reach a blush, let alone shame.

Was any evidence offered, while I was in town?

Not a whit.

 

[I Am The Scum]

it was like (note I said "like") two angels helping me out.

This one time, two guys smashed my mom's bedroom window, ransacked her home, and stole her TV.

It was like (note I said "like") two angels stealing her stuff. God is obviously a crime boss.