The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer

blue triangle said:
This was the saddest thing I've read. Misery sure likes company, but trolling is no route to lasting joy, my friend. Get out of those slippers and get a life. And if it takes you six years to find one, it will still have been more than worth the effort - and then you too will be in a position to see the trollers for what they are.
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The thing you continue to miss is that I, and others, have lives; lives (despite your uncivil calumny) replete with significance and meaning, with work for the hands and ease for the heart, with joy, and love, and beauty--without resorting to thrall-level adoption of bronze-age superstition (or, for that matter, 'god' based mummery of any stripe).

You are welcome to wallow in whatever imaginary friend makes you happy. You do err when you presume to pretend that your choice should be mine.
 
Argumemnon said:
Only according to the translation, actually.

And according to the Silmarillion, the universe began with the songs of Eru. Whom to believe?
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Dunno who to believe but I can tell you which one is more readable. Hint: it's the one originally written in English.
 
blue triangle said:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Genesis 1.1, NIV) The clue here is in the word 'beginning', implying that there was in fact a beginning, a start to things, a point of departure. The verb 'created' implies creation, and the subjects, 'the heavens and the earth', are a fair description of the universe from the point of view of tribal man. Ergo, the universe had a beginning.
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You continue to use the "close enough" argument; apparently without understanding of the words actually contained in your self-contradictory scriptures (have you forgotten the other "creation" myth?).

The way you have it, your 'god' was not capable of expressing anything the bronze-age superstitionists that inconsistently collected, anachronistically collated, sectarially edited and redacted, and contentiously canonized, your "scriptures" did not already know--which argues strongly that your "miraculous" gematria pilpul is no more than pareidolia.

...but it gets "close enough", right? (As long as you select the correct arbitrary set of operations in the correct arbitrary order.)
 
blue triangle said:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Genesis 1.1, NIV) The clue here is in the word 'beginning', implying that there was in fact a beginning, a start to things, a point of departure. The verb 'created' implies creation, and the subjects, 'the heavens and the earth', are a fair description of the universe from the point of view of tribal man. Ergo, the universe had a beginning.
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But this only works with an extremely selective and generous interpretation. Keep reading. The spirit of God is "hovering over the waters." What waters? Where did they come from? Is the earth "waters?" And then a few lines later there are "waters above." What are those? Is that heaven? If so, why does there need to be a "firmament" to separate them?

Suffice to say, there is something being described in this text. It is not the universe.
 
Argumemnon said:
Circular reasoning.

The bible makes the claim that god exists. You can't use the claim to prove that the claim is correct.

Let me make this clear for you: no one in the history of mankind has proven that god exists or even that he is possible, to the satisfaction of any sort of person of scientific rigor. You could be the first, but you won't.
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"You don't believe what the bible says? Here, let me find you a bible verse that I say shows why you are wrong (and headed for 'the fire')."
 
Argumemnon said:
Only according to the translation, actually.

And according to the Silmarillion, the universe began with the songs of Eru. Whom to believe?
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Nonsense! Ganesh, he of the broken tusk, brought all into being when he intoned the first ॐ.

Unless it was the Great Arkleseizure that sneezed the cosmos into being.

Or Malaan...
 
blue triangle said:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Genesis 1.1, NIV) The clue here is in the word 'beginning', implying that there was in fact a beginning, a start to things, a point of departure. The verb 'created' implies creation, and the subjects, 'the heavens and the earth', are a fair description of the universe from the point of view of tribal man. Ergo, the universe had a beginning.
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In the beginning of his creation....
 
blue triangle said:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Genesis 1.1, NIV) The clue here is in the word 'beginning', implying that there was in fact a beginning, a start to things, a point of departure. The verb 'created' implies creation, and the subjects, 'the heavens and the earth', are a fair description of the universe from the point of view of tribal man. Ergo, the universe had a beginning.
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The implication is that God already existed, before he began to make the heavens and earth. So there wasn't a start to the universe God lives in, because he was already living in it. It's all going to hinge on a definition of "universe" and possibly interactions between universes. Then there's the question of whether God always existed or whether he too was spoofed into existence somehow.

Science is complicated enough without having a need to reconcile it with tribal fiction.
 
Pup said:
The implication is that God already existed, before he began to make the heavens and earth. So there wasn't a start to the universe God lives in, because he was already living in it. It's all going to hinge on a definition of "universe" and possibly interactions between universes. Then there's the question of whether God always existed or whether he too was spoofed into existence somehow.

Science is complicated enough without having a need to reconcile it with tribal fiction.
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And yet you are trying to do it too. Yes, Christians would say that God preexisted the universe, but the universe we see around us is what we are discussing here!
 
blue triangle said:
No, according to the original too.
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Not necessarily. There is a definite possibility that the original means "in the beginning" to read as following a previous state instead. The word for "god" is also possibly plural.

Would you mind addressing my large post to you on the last page, or are you planning to only respond to the easy stuff?
 
Slowvehicle said:
Nonsense! Ganesh, he of the broken tusk, brought all into being when he intoned the first ॐ.

Unless it was the Great Arkleseizure that sneezed the cosmos into being.

Or Malaan...
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Unless your creation myth includes Coyote stealing fire and losing it where Man found it, your myth is incomplete.
 
blue triangle said:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Genesis 1.1, NIV) The clue here is in the word 'beginning', implying that there was in fact a beginning, a start to things, a point of departure. The verb 'created' implies creation, and the subjects, 'the heavens and the earth', are a fair description of the universe from the point of view of tribal man. Ergo, the universe had a beginning.
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Let us assume you are right, Sylvia Browne was sometimes right as well. You make enough predictions, some of them will be right.
 
Jrrarglblarg said:
In some versions, yes. Seriously.
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I still prefer the version where giants stole the secret of steel, and in which Crom was angered. And the Earth shook. Fire and wind struck down these giants, and they threw their bodies into the waters, but in their rage, the gods forgot the secret of steel and left it on the battlefield. We who found it are just men. Not gods. Not giants. Just men.
 
blue triangle said:
And yet you are trying to do it too. Yes, Christians would say that God preexisted the universe, but the universe we see around us is what we are discussing here!
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No,what Genesis is "discussing" is the "firmament". You know, the one with the "divided waters". Quite a stretch to claim that that was intended to mean, "the universe".
 
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