Proof of Immortality III

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I've hardly obligated myself to argue for or prove immortality. In fact, I just finished explaining that I don't buy into the "immortal self" explanation...

The topic of the thread is a purported mathematical proof for immortality. You are presenting propositions regarding cosmology. You are obliged to show how those relate to a mathematical proof for immortality -- either one you have or one that someone else has presented.
 
What on earth? I came here for an argument.

1. Phenomenon P is extremely unlikely.
2. ???
C: Reincarnation is real.

Fill in the blank. Fix the premises. Do whatever you need. But please, make an argument.

I hope I'm not asking too much.


Here you go:

1. Phenomenon P is extremely unlikely.
2. Therefore God an unnamed designer must have done it.
C: Reincarnation is real.

OK, there are a couple of non-sequiturs there, but that's how this argument usually goes...
 
The implication of your question is that you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm sure. It is funny, however, that, despite your constant umbrage, you cannot actually tell anyone involved in this discussion what they are wrong about.

I've hardly obligated myself to argue for or prove immortality. In fact, I just finished explaining that I don't buy into the "immortal self" explanation

You will note that you are responding to a series of statements directed at Jabba.

Please read before responding.

Read much? I've repeatedly stated the implication, including in the very post you quoted.

Mm... no, you didn't, unless by "unequivocal implications" you simply mean the whole "the odds of any specific brain coming into existence are astronomical" thing again. Which isn't an implication. Or much of anything, really; it just goes back to the "so what?" point I already raised in response to Jabba.

You really don't seem to have much of an argument here. Or even a factual position. You just seem to be fond of telling people they're stupid without ever attempting to back it up.
 
You seem to be saying you haven't stated any proposition. If that's the case, then what is it that you're so adamant your critics are wrong about?

More obfuscation.

I haven't been reticent to say what I think my critics are wrong about, which includes but is not limited to false analogies which do not address my actual perspective, and various charges of fallacies and "problems" on my part.

You seem to be saying that certain cosmological factoids led you to a "personal hypothesis." You won't say what it is. Yet for some reason we're supposed to accept that it validates a premise in Jabba's probabilistic model.

False.

I have neither stated or implied that my or any other conclusion validates a premise, nor would it be true. A conclusion cannot validate a premise. A conclusion can only be derived from a premise.

Now, as to that bogus "interest" you were earlier claiming about my personal, unprovable hypothesis and your bogus rationale for wanting to know all about it.

The falseness of your pretended "interest" has now been fully exposed.
 
I'm sure. It is funny, however, that, despite your constant umbrage, you cannot actually tell anyone involved in this discussion what they are wrong about.

False.

Telling them what they're wrong about is what's got them all stirred up.

Mm... no, you didn't, unless by "unequivocal implications" you simply mean the whole "the odds of any specific brain coming into existence are astronomical" thing again. Which isn't an implication...

The highlighted part is laughably, overtly dishonestly FALSE.

That is precisely the implication I was talking about. You couldn't figure out I was talking about that?

You really don't seem to have much of an argument here.

And you have even less of an argument that I don't have an argument. Unless you're trying to prove to me that talking to you is a waste of time.

It is mysterious how you could know that even if it was true, based on the complete lack of any indication that you understand or are even aware of what I've actually taken issue with.

At any rate, I don't need to have an "argument" to take issue with others' arguments - which is very nearly all you ever do, now that you mention it.
 
The highlighted part is laughably, overtly dishonestly FALSE.

That is precisely the implication I was talking about. You couldn't figure out I was talking about that?

Ignoring the entirety of the "unless you mean..." part, then, and choosing to focus on a difference in semantics in order to launch an attack on the other poster. Brilliant.

At any rate, I don't need to have an "argument" to take issue with others' arguments - which is very nearly all you ever do, now that you mention it.

I have no issue with disagreements. It is what this entire forum is for.

I do, however, find those who think baseless insults and refusal to actually elaborate on what, exactly, they think anyone else is wrong about are a fitting substitute for actual content rather tedious and annoying.

Seeing as my participation in this thread thus far has consisted, in its entirety, of asking Jabba "so what?", pointing out that he does not have a proof for immortality, and asking you exactly what it is that you think anyone here is incorrect about, and you have responded with nothing but vitriol and a refusal to explain what it is that you actually take issue with, I really don't see how you think that you can take the high ground here.
 
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The topic of the thread is a purported mathematical proof for immortality. You are presenting propositions regarding cosmology. You are obliged to show how those relate to a mathematical proof for immortality -- either one you have or one that someone else has presented.

Utterly false. No such obligation exists.

My references to the standard cosmological model, quantum mechanics, and probability serve the purposes I obviously used them for, including supporting their (not my) implication that the prior probabilty that a particular brain will emerge converges on zero, and to counter the repeated popups of 19th century determinism.

At any rate, where was your concern about the thread topic when you were trying to badger me into going into an entirely different subject, namely my personal, unprovable hypothesis?

And once again you reveal and double down on the utter vacuity of your badgering agenda.
 
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I have no issue with disagreements. It is what this entire forum is for.

I do, however, find those who think baseless insults and refusal to actually elaborate on what, exactly, they think anyone else is wrong about are a fitting substitute for actual content rather tedious and annoying.

Oh, I see. You have me confused with someone else, who hasn't been all up in their faces, telling them when and why I disagree with them on specific points.
 
Oh, I see. You have me confused with someone else, who hasn't been all up in their faces, telling them when and why I disagree with them on specific points.

Then perhaps you would be willing to justify this earlier comment of yours, regarding my question of "so what?" directed at Jabba.

The implication of your question is that you don't know what you're talking about.
 
Then perhaps you would be willing to justify this earlier comment of yours, regarding my question of "so what?" directed at Jabba.

Your response was meaningless. Been meaningless since the first time you did it. Still is.

Analogy: I claim you owe me 50 bucks. You pull out a many sided die, roll it, and reply "So what?"

Why even bother with the die roll? Were you going for dramatic effect? Bottom line, you don't want to pay the fifty bucks and you're not going to. But you do, apparently, want to argue about it for a couple of years.

Your die roll and subsequent question didn't even address Jabba's conditional perspective. You're not even taking issue with the validity of the conditional perspective, you simply ignore it. You don't even bother to explain why you ignore it, which suggests you may not even be aware of it.

Jabba's formula relies on his subjective perspective. In probability theory it's called "conditional probability". Therefore, the formula only applies to the user. It can be applied by anyone who has been ceded a similar perspective. But only on themselves. Jabba can't use it on you. You can't use it on Jabba. You can't roll a die, exclaim "so what", and then pretend your dramatic act addresses conditional probability.

Your die roll and question demonstrated that you don't give a dead rat's ass about any of that, but you did ask me to justify my rejection of your big adventurous die roll, so first I'll need to see if you even know what conditional probability is and how it differs from rolling a die and then exclaiming "so what".

Just for starters, users of conditional probability do not simply exclaim "so what" at what their conditional perspective reveals. They actually use it.

Here's an analogy on conditional probability from one of Max Tegmark's books.

A shell game is in progress. 3 people are present: the dealer, his young daughter standing next to him, and 1 player. Both the player and the dealer's rather short daughter have conditionally generated probability distributions on the location of the pea.

The player simply knows the pea is under one of 2 shells. His conditional probability distribution is ( 0.5, 0.5)

The girl saw the pea when the dealer slightly lifted the corner of the concealing shell. Her probability distribution is (1, 0)

According to Tegmark, an accomplished practical and theoretical cosmologist, both conditional perspectives are equally valid, both making full use of the conditional information available. The only difference is, the girl is twice as likely to correctly locate the pea, solely due to the advantage ceded to her by her conditional perspective.

The dealer represents the universe. The girl and the player represent two otherwise equal residents of the universe, looking at the same events from different conditional perspectives.

It doesn't relate directly to Jabba's specific conditional setup. It's just about what conditional probability does.
 
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... My references to the standard cosmological model, quantum mechanics, and probability serve the purposes I obviously used them for, including supporting their (not my) implication that the prior probabilty that a particular brain will emerge converges on zero, and to counter the repeated popups of 19th century determinism.

No. At cosmological t=0 you were undefined, and no probability was in play for a 'you.' What was determined and a given were the physical constants, but even these do not build a constructionist universe; i.e., there is no lock-step derivation of higher order organization (iirc).

So one part of the problem is that there was no defined path to a 'you' at the time you are using for your example, so it doesn't make any sense as formulated. The other part is chaos, and one of its effects is to give a unique expression to the course and outcome of common processes and events, ones that nonetheless operate on fixed laws, such as those involved in human biology and DNA.

So what might be the probability of any given human DNA configuration? Still a very small number, but not the right question. The actual probability of a 'you' is when your parents mate, and the potential sample space from within which you randomly emerge is now quite a lot smaller, making a 'you' quite a lot more probable. If we knew more of the precise state of each parent at the time, we might reduce that uncertainty even more.

The only general statement that can be made about people is that "there will be individual humans, following laws and processes we know, but with specific outcomes (selves) that are unknowable until imminent, if then, but always within circumscribed ranges."

Probability and knowledge/uncertainty are two sides of the same coin. It therefore makes no sense to assign any probabilities of a 'you' until quite close to your actual making, which is when the question could legitimately come up.
 
Your die roll and subsequent question didn't even address Jabba's conditional perspective. You're not even taking issue with the validity of the conditional perspective, you simply ignore it. You don't even bother to explain why you ignore it, which suggests you may not even be aware of it.

Maybe you can help me understand. Is it the case, or is it not, that the following two concepts are related?

1. The vanishingly small probability that Jim Smith would be born.
2. The probability that Jim Smith will experience some kind of afterlife.

Now, there's the obvious fact that if Jim Smith is never born, he won't experience an afterlife, but that's clearly not what we're talking about.

If there's anything else, can you please elaborate?
 
Utterly false. No such obligation exists.

Member Agreement said:
11. You will not deliberately attempt to derail threads or start threads in the wrong section.

If you are unwilling to connect the topic of cosmology to the topic of a mathematical proof for immortality then I have to consider that you're trying to derail the discussion of the proof into an irrelevant discussion of cosmology.

You insinuate this is some late obsession of mine. In fact, as has been belabored, you raised the prospect of just such a connection in your post disclaiming any belief in Jabba's model. You volunteered that you had a different model, and suggested your cosmological musings bore on it. This is nothing new.

I'm simply asking you to explain how anything you've said over the past several pages relates to the topic of this thread. Not a hard question, nor an inappropriate one, and not a question I've been alone in asking.
 
Dave,
- Not unless you have a potentially better explanation for the mountain's exact shape.

Uniqueness lies in the impossibility of repeating any given natural process with complete temporal and physical exactitude. Every 'run' gives a slightly or greatly different outcome, depending on measure, or none at all, depending on perspective. That's how it works, or there would be a heck of a lot more p=1 around, and some oddly similar snowflakes. Rather boring if all mountains were the exactly the same as the Grand Tetons... we'd get over the joke so much faster.
 
Your response was meaningless. Been meaningless since the first time you did it. Still is.

Well, no. It isn't.

Jabba's argument is that the astronomical odds against his specific brain coming into being are evidence of immortality, somehow. The problem with this is that, while the odds of any given specific brain coming into existence are admittedly quite small... so what?

Analogy: I claim you owe me 50 bucks. You pull out a many sided die, roll it, and reply "So what?"

This has absolutely nothing to do with the situation in hand. I have absolutely no idea what it is that you think you are arguing for or against by making this comparison. It certainly isn't related to any discussion currently taking place.

Jabba's formula relies on his subjective perspective.

No, Jabba's "formula" relies on a complete failure to understand the most elementary principles of probability and pulling numbers out of thin air. Conditional probability has nothing to do with it - and even if it did, going from "my existence is extremely unlikely" to "immortality" is still complete nonsense.

And the answer to "my existence is extremely unlikely" remains "so what?".
 
Very good. I trust you will agree that the likelihood of it looking like any other of the enormous number of possible arrangements of rocks at that precise moment is equally small. Now: what is the probability that one of those vanishingly unlikely arrangements would in fact occur?
Pixel,
- How about 100%?
- But, we accept the scientific explanation anyway, cause we have no potentially better explanation...
- In most cases we accept that the lottery winner is just 'lucky.' We accept that because we have no potentially better explanation. If we found out that the winner was second cousin to whoever controls the lottery, we wouldn't be so sure.
 
- How about 100%?

Oh, very good. We have acceptance of the fact that, no matter how many sides there are on the die, one of them has got to come up.

Now, let us see if we can build off of that.

Jabba, do you understand that, given the existence of humans, while the existence of one specific brain is astronomically unlikely, the odds of at least one coming into existence are 100%?

- In most cases we accept that the lottery winner is just 'lucky.' We accept that because we have no potentially better explanation. If we found out that the winner was second cousin to whoever controls the lottery, we wouldn't be so sure.

What evidence do you have that the game was similarly rigged in your favor with regards to your existence?

A hint: "I exist, and my specific brain coming up is very unlikely" is not evidence. See the above for why.
 
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