The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer

[Pixel42]

Has it ever happened to you?

Yes. Like I said, I've also had the overwhelming certainty, the flood of absolute knowledge. Mine just happened to tell me the opposite of what yours tells you.

That little girl who once did fervently believe is still there

She grew up, and learned to accept the world as it is instead of how she would like it to be.

Look, I have personally witnessed miracles, including one manifestation. No amount of abuse or clever argument could ever change my mind, not because I'm insane or stubborn but because I was given the physical evidence a skeptic like me needed, and more.

Then share it, convince me that you are justified in dismissing the possibility that you were mistaken. So far no-one who has made such a claim has done so but hey, you might be the first.

Well in coming here you'll appreciate I've come out of my own little place of safety and into the lion's den.

I do respect you for that. But if you really want me to seriously consider the possibility that you are right, you do need to be prepared to seriously consider the possibility that you are mistaken.

 

[blue triangle]

And each one claims the same thing of being correct while the others are not, so there's literally no way to discover which one is actually correct. Thing is, maybe they're all incorrect but, but again, each one thinks they have evidence to back up their own personal interpretation and again, there's nothing which can actually, objectively, be shown as correct.

It's true that there are as many readings of the Bible as there are Christians. It's far better to read it with an open mind than with too much fervent belief or with too much skepticism. For a long time I wasn't even sure if Jesus had actually lived, since there are so many connections between the gospels and the myths of Osiris, Mithras, Odin, etc. I'm pretty sure now that he did live, but I have always been very skeptical about the Bible as a historical document. It's more like a book of wisdom, guidance and symbolism and it has enormous depth. The parts where God is apparently ordering people to do terrible things is probably more to do with the tribal mentality and circumstances of the Hebrews, who could easily have been wiped out by their enemies, and the sexism is a reflection of the patriarchal culture within which it developed.

Which are the literal verses and which are not? What is the rule which we may apply to all of the verses to come to the same conclusion?

I don't think much of it is literally true, if you mean as history. At the surface there is more of man than of God, so you have to dig deeper to find the truths in there. Do you really want to learn something about the Bible? About twenty years ago a man was put in a trance for a week and shown by revelation the meaning of the symbolism in the tabernacle, something that had been hidden since it was given. I wouldn't post it here, but if anyone was genuinely interested in reading his articles, I could give links.

Okay, so what's a logical, coherent, rational, meaningful definition of God so that we may all objectively discover if God exists?

God is beyond definition. You won't find him that way anyway.

I will deal with it just fine, thanks, and treat this existing God as anything else that exists in nature and I will be so bold as to say that the vast majority of scientists will do the same, if only for the fact that there is one more fascinating thing to explore, examine and discover about the universe we live in.

Who said God existed in nature? I didn't.

 

[Donn]

Look, I have personally witnessed miracles, including one manifestation. No amount of abuse or clever argument could ever change my mind, not because I'm insane or stubborn but because I was given the physical evidence a skeptic like me needed, and more. Death has no sting for me, and life now has rich meaning. I don't care as much as some might imagine about what any of you believe, but if you are someone who would like to let God into your life, then please don't give up.

It took witnessing a "miracle" to swing your vote, whereas we should be satisfied with patience, obeisance and prayer?

You need not reply; you've stated it now: no amount of argument will ever change your mind.

I take that as an admission — you are not here to discuss but to harangue. Everything you pose is a disguised witnessing of perverted clerical urge. There is no course ahead unless you change your view and allow questions to make a house in your mind.

Finis.

 

[tsig]

So you're in the yes camp. It took me a while to get a yes, but at least one of you did.

If God did exist in some form and prayer was the only way to contact God then it would be odd if you didn't want to contact him, when it would mean opening a dialogue with the Source of all, your heavenly Father.

If god liked crushing humans it would be well not to contact him. Hypothetically.

 

[tsig]

I wasn't asking about two way communication. I was asking if you would be prepared to contact God if you knew he existed and if prayer was the way to contact him. I was asking if you would take the first step, with no expectations or preconditions.



But they have, Delvo!



I never said God would answer all your prayers, either in my hypothetical situation or in real life. He might give an obvious answer to some of them but that is not guaranteed, or not at least in the way you want.



But everyone's situation is unique and every age has its own problems. There are always new situations, new problems, new reasons to turn to God.

The wind blows to the south
and goes around to the north;
around and around goes the wind,
and on its circuits the wind returns.
7
All streams run to the sea,
but the sea is not full;
to the place where the streams flow,
there they flow again.
8
All things are full of weariness;
a man cannot utter it;
the eye is not satisfied with seeing,
nor the ear filled with hearing.
9
What has been is what will be,
and what has been done is what will be done,
and there is nothing new under the sun.
10
Is there a thing of which it is said, “See, this is new”? It has been already in the ages before us.11
There is no remembrance of former things,[d]
nor will there be any remembrance
of later things[e] yet to be
among those who come after.

You don't need math to know which way the wind blows.

 

[blue triangle]

It took witnessing a "miracle" to swing your vote, whereas we should be satisfied with patience, obeisance and prayer?

You need not reply; you've stated it now: no amount of argument will ever change your mind.

I take that as an admission — you are not here to discuss but to harangue. Everything you pose is a disguised witnessing of perverted clerical urge. There is no course ahead unless you change your view and allow questions to make a house in your mind.

Finis.

Gee, I guess that's it then.

What would it take for you to go you back to believing in Santa Claus?

 

[tsig]

What form would these answers take?

You might hear an audible answer (the 'still, small voice'). You might see a picture in your mind, you might get a feeling, or some combination of them. You might have a dream. Something in your life might change. You may feel stuck in your job and an opportunity opens up. There are a million ways it could happen and although you might not be sure the first or second or third time it happens, with continued use of prayer your confidence in it will grow. I'm talking about how it really is for some of us now, of course, not hypothesising.



As I said, with continued use. But sometimes it is very, very obvious.



It didn't happen for me either when I prayed as a child. I suspect you have to live a little first and have your shell cracked a bit. Try again.



No, they are not. People in ivory towers are the ones fooling themselves.

I'm sure being a little cracked helps.

 

[tsig]

Has it ever happened to you?

If it never has, then you literally don't know what you are talking about.



You will often be unsure, and you need to maintain a skeptical attitude, or you'll e seeing everything as a sign. In fact everything does have meaning, but usually the meaning is that there is no meaning, if you see what I mean.



Then I feel a little sorry for you, because you obviously would like to believe. That little girl who once did fervently believe is still there, and still feeling she's been let down.

Look, I have personally witnessed miracles, including one manifestation. No amount of abuse or clever argument could ever change my mind, not because I'm insane or stubborn but because I was given the physical evidence a skeptic like me needed, and more. Death has no sting for me, and life now has rich meaning. I don't care as much as some might imagine about what any of you believe, but if you are someone who would like to let God into your life, then please don't give up. it's true that some of us can hear spirit more easily than others, but nobody is completely unable to hear. You could take DMT or iboga and you would instantly know, but as I previously said these are dangerous. Do something radical. Try the Alpha Course. Go to an evangelical church and ask for prayers. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.



Well in coming here you'll appreciate I've come out of my own little place of safety and into the lion's den.

Why do you think those here haven't done those things?


In my last visit to an evangelical church the pastor practically had intercourse with a member right in the aisle, me an my family walked out in disgust.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Gee, I guess that's it then.

What would it take for you to go you back to believing in Santa Claus?

Given that petitions to "Santa Claus" have results; while petitions to your "IC" manifestly do not...

 

[blue triangle]

To what end? So that you can create a bigoted sound-bite dismissal of all of us here who find your sophistry both ignorant and arrogant, plus a waste of time?

Or so that you can feel proud of exposing yourself to a bunch of heathens in your religious duty of witnessing?

Or do you really want to understand where "we" are coming from? If that were so, a simple respectful discussion of attitudes would be a more useful approach.

But you have gone from an attempt to pretend you are a mystic sharing esoteric knowledge to becoming a resistant apologist for faulty brain habits and old time religion. None of that is anywhere close to "showing [us] evidence that god is real".

If you had any interest in how we think, you would have given up this charade before you even went down this disingenuous poll about a hypothetical universe that doesn't exist, pretending that an acid god exists above and beyond the holy texts it wears as dirty dirty coagulating bs and nonsense clothing in this, the real world.

Thus I have lost interest in you and your pretend "discussion".

The whitewashing of the evil doings in the bible is a ******** protest from deeply corrupted minds who refuse to see the consequences of the worship of a Lord whose texts clearly show the lord as unworthy of respect, let alone worship!

Pretending that it is those of us who have taken a cold clear look at the holy texts who are straw manning is precious! "God is love" is not supported by the text. Nevermind a "second channel"! The first one is a complete cock-up!

I've had it. Goodbye.

There's a lot of anger here. Stay cool bro'

 

[blue triangle]

Why do you think those here haven't done those things?

Why do you think I think that?

Why do you think the comment was addressed to you?

 

[blue triangle]

It took witnessing a "miracle" to swing your vote, whereas we should be satisfied with patience, obeisance and prayer?

This is beneath you. It's a process of opening up and when you go through it, anything can happen. Prayer is a good way to begin though.

You need not reply; you've stated it now: no amount of argument will ever change your mind.

What happened to all the Shakespearean verse?

I take that as an admission — you are not here to discuss but to harangue. Everything you pose is a disguised witnessing of perverted clerical urge. There is no course ahead unless you change your view and allow questions to make a house in your mind.

Ah, it's back. I'm just here to discuss a few things that interest me, as presumably are you. You never answered my Santa Claus question. I'll answer it for you. There is no way I could ever persuade you that Santa is real, something you very probably once believed. But I wouldn't go into paroxyms of rage because of it (well, if I was crazy enough to still believe in Santa I might) or accuse you of being closed minded. Well, that's equivalent to what you're saying to me.

 

[blue triangle]

Why do you think those here haven't done those things?

I don't think that. Why do you think I do? Anyway, having done it in the past doesn't stop you trying again.

In my last visit to an evangelical church the pastor practically had intercourse with a member right in the aisle, me an my family walked out in disgust.

It must have been one of those churches where they do a lot of hugging. (I don't blame you for walking out though).

You could always have tried another church. Do you think all churches are like that? All pastors are sleazy? Did you stop going to church altogether after that? I'd have tried another church if that was the only reason for leaving..

 

[Delvo]

I reported the first post in this digression to the gods mods a few hours ago. At least with mods instead of gods, there's a realistic chance they might answer.

It worked! There is a Mod!

 

[blue triangle]

Yes. Like I said, I've also had the overwhelming certainty, the flood of absolute knowledge. Mine just happened to tell me the opposite of what yours tells you.

Was that your experience that there was no God, or something like that? I'm guessing but what you might have been experiencing was spiritual, and it was because you were ready to see beyond a conventionally religious faith, which might have trapped you, as it has trapped many. Atheists/agnostics are often more spiritually mature than those with a conventional faith, although that can also be a trap. Theologian Matthew Fox wrote a lot about the stages of spiritual growth and M. Scott Peck distilled his six stages into 4, atheism/doubt being stage 3.

She grew up, and learned to accept the world as it is instead of how she would like it to be.

She learned about this fallen world, yes.

Then share it, convince me that you are justified in dismissing the possibility that you were mistaken. So far no-one who has made such a claim has done so but hey, you might be the first.

Matthew 7.6 (but please don't take it personally)

I do respect you for that. But if you really want me to seriously consider the possibility that you are right, you do need to be prepared to seriously consider the possibility that you are mistaken.

Would you seriously consider going back to the simple childish faith you had as a girl? That's equivalent to what you're asking of me. That faith you had really is gone for good, because growth is going forward and expanding your horizons. What you go forward into, if and when you are ready, is a new understanding of God and your relationship to him.

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

Was that your experience that there was no God, or something like that? I'm guessing but what you might have been experiencing was spiritual, and it was because you were ready to see beyond a conventionally religious faith, which might have trapped you, as it has trapped many. Atheists/agnostics are often more spiritually mature than those with a conventional faith, although that can also be a trap. Theologian Matthew Fox wrote a lot about the stages of spiritual growth and M. Scott Peck distilled his six stages into 4, atheism/doubt being stage 3.



She learned about this fallen world, yes.



Matthew 7.6



Would you seriously consider going back to the simple childish faith you had as a girl? That's equivalent to what you're asking of me. That faith you had really is gone for good, because growth is going forward and expanding your horizons. What you go forward into, if and when you are ready, is a new understanding of God and your relationship to him.

Except there is no god. There is no reason to believe that you are any further along on your human journey than any atheist. Belief in fairy tales is not growth.

Anyone who has a relationship with god is simply doing so in their own mind. Every christian has a personal relationship with jebus/god, yet no one agrees on what he is, does or wants. That's because the communication is one-way. Praying is like being the guy who made the first walkie-talkie.

 

[Seismosaurus]

So you're in the yes camp. It took me a while to get a yes, but at least one of you did.

If God did exist in some form and prayer was the only way to contact God then it would be odd if you didn't want to contact him, when it would mean opening a dialogue with the Source of all,

Why do you think so? I'm trying to imagine what I might get from such a dialogue, and I'm coming up empty.

Am I supposed to ask this intelligence about the mysteries of the universe? What dark matter and energy are, what is the nature of gravity? It seems to me that we have done extremely well at working these kinds of questions out ourselves, and frankly I prefer that the answers are things we accomplish for ourselves rather than have them handed to us.

Or is talking to this intelligence supposed to give me some kind of emotional comfort? If so then you are presuming a desire on my part that I do not possess. My emotional needs can be met by myself and my own kind, thank you very much.

So... what's left? What would be the point of talking to your hypothetical intelligence?

your heavenly Father.

You've made rather a large jump in your terms there. Previously you've talked of it as some sort of cosmic intelligence. Now you're referring to it as my father.

A father is a person who contributes his DNA to you, and/or contributes towards raising you from childhood. I have a father. One is all I have, and by definition one is all there could be. If your cosmic intelligence exists then it is NOT my father, in any sense of the word. And I would be extremely insulted if it presumed such a relationship.

And frankly, I am insulted that you seem to presume it.

 

[tsig]

That's my job, but I like to keep it quiet. And please don't call me anything.

You may call me sir.

To sir with love?

 

[tsig]

I don't think that. Why do you think I do? Anyway, having done it in the past doesn't stop you trying again.



It must have been one of those churches where they do a lot of hugging. (I don't blame you for walking out though).

You could always have tried another church. Do you think all churches are like that? All pastors are sleazy? Did you stop going to church altogether after that? I'd have tried another church if that was the only reason for leaving..

After that I started my own church.

 

[arthwollipot]

Let's just say a 'field of consciousness' from which everything came and which all religions are attempts to understand. Most have a name for this Consciousness, and although Buddhism doesn't, it does have concepts such as Infinite Love and the Buddha Nature. Let's say they are all like the blind men touching different parts of the elephant, because I don't want to lean towards any particular religion for this question. Let's callit Infinite Consciousness, or IC for short.

Let's just say, hypothetically, that it is proven beyond all doubt that IC exists, that IC gave birth to your consciousness in some way and that you can contact IC through prayer. Would you pray to IC?

In this hypothetical, how do I know that the IC wants to be prayed to? And how should I go about it? After all, where some people touch this elephant, prayer isn't even a thing. Buddhists meditate. Muslims pray at certain prescribed times of the day. Catholics pray in Latin.

You're trying to make a big tent with the elephant analogy, but you're forgetting all of the massive variation that takes place in the tent. And more importantly, you're forgetting the extremely common doctrine that if I do it wrong, I will anger the elephant and have to spend the rest of eternity being punished for it.

So - granting your hypothetical and assuming that the elephant definitely exists, how should I go about praying to it and what makes you think your answer is superior to anyone else's?