Oscar Pistorius shoots girlfriend - Part 2

[Samson]

Oscar will be sentenced soon. He is the fall guy for a rabid culture of rampant and uncontrolled gun availibilty, paranoia and terror.
No one should rejoice, all should pray.
A scared young man on stumps thought he was defending his girl friend.

He is no danger, society has this completely wrong.

 

[Desert Fox]

Oscar will be sentenced soon. He is the fall guy for a rabid culture of rampant and uncontrolled gun availibilty, paranoia and terror.
No one should rejoice, all should pray.
A scared young man on stumps thought he was defending his girl friend.

He is no danger, society has this completely wrong.

I carry a concealed weapon almost every day. . . . . .I have never shot anybody in my bathroom.

I have actually only drawn it once even. Working security at a convenience store and carrying it openly. Escorting a guy off the property when he grabs a bottle. He drops it and ran. Problem solved.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Oscar will be sentenced soon. He is the fall guy for a rabid culture of rampant and uncontrolled gun availibilty, paranoia and terror.
No one should rejoice, all should pray.
A scared young man on stumps thought he was defending his girl friend.

He is no danger, society has this completely wrong.

Poor frightened cripple man was a bit of a danger to his girl friend one night though.

 

[trustbutverify]

Oscar will be sentenced soon. He is the fall guy for a rabid culture of rampant and uncontrolled gun availibilty, paranoia and terror.
No one should rejoice, all should pray.
A scared young man on stumps thought he was defending his girl friend.

He is no danger, society has this completely wrong.

Nonsense. Celebrity worship at work, once again.

 

[Samson]

I carry a concealed weapon almost every day. . . . . .I have never shot anybody in my bathroom.

I have actually only drawn it once even. Working security at a convenience store and carrying it openly. Escorting a guy off the property when he grabs a bottle. He drops it and ran. Problem solved.

I know you don't agree DF, but if it was mistaken identity by a cripple, jail is useless as a penalty.
Gun nuts are everywhere, which means they are not wicked, just dumb as fence posts. Remove the guns so everyone has hand to hand combat with which to settle matters.

 

[Drewbot]

As I said, I think this is a balance of probabilities thing. There are sound arguments either way, and you have elucidated those on one side very well. The counter argument is not one that people unfamiliar with South Africa can really relate to. And it is this:

White South Africans, other than in some parts of the Western Cape, live in constant fear. When you pull up at traffic lights (robots, in SA), you leave a gap to the car in front and have all your doors locked and windows wound up, in the hope that this gives you a split second to avoid being robbed at gun point. This happens constantly. Most white people (and I mean, almost everyone) in SA live behind high walls with glass or razor wire embedded in the top, and have electric gates, sometimes 2 sets. They almost all either have their own private security patrols, or belong to a neighbourhood scheme. They pay armed guards to patrol 24 hours a day. But those security companies aren't beyond a bit of corruption, and have been linked to many violent crimes. Behind those walls, houses all have steel security bars over the windows and doors, and many have internal safe areas in which to retreat in the very real chance that armed robbers or kidnappers enter the house. Every single white South African knows of someone who has had been injured or killed by house breakers or car jackers.

This is a deeply broken society. The police are corrupt and incompetent, and the inhabitants of the slums alongside the affluent areas have nothing much to lose in this wave of criminality directed against their former oppressors. There are clearances of white farmers going on in South Africa at the moment at much the same rate as happened under Mugabe in Zimbabwe. A Justice Minister in a recent government said something along the lines of "what's with all this moaning about crime?" Many white people see the whole environment as one of settling old scores with official connivance. One of the results of all this is a mass exodus of white South Africans to the UK, Australia, New Zealand and so on.

Osacr Pretorius wasn't an outlier in terms of his attitude. He is actually typical, and, sad as it is to say it, he was understandably typical. South Africa is in deep trouble, and the whites of SA feel like they under siege. So, live with all that your entire life, and then hear a noise in your bathroom in the middle of the night..........

yes. paranoia in S. Africa is rampant.
All around them violent crimes, and examples of reprisals against whites.

This was my first thought, when I heard about this tragedy, I remembered my friend telling me about gates around their neighborhood, bars on their windows, guns in the house, fear that the security guards that he paid would be the ones doing the crime. Can a court be sympathetic to this? Every white knows the whites are extremely scared and jittery , shoot first, ask questions later mentality. If they don't their family will be dead.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Every white knows the whites are extremely scared and jittery , shoot first, ask questions later mentality. If they don't their family will be dead.

And when they do their family is dead.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Oscar will be sentenced soon. He is the fall guy for a rabid culture of rampant and uncontrolled gun availibilty, paranoia and terror.
No one should rejoice, all should pray.
A scared young man on stumps thought he was defending his girl friend.

He is no danger, society has this completely wrong.

You still can't accept that it would have been murder even if it was a break-in? Fascinating.

 

[Samson]

I carry a concealed weapon almost every day. . . . . .I have never shot anybody in my bathroom.

I have actually only drawn it once even. Working security at a convenience store and carrying it openly. Escorting a guy off the property when he grabs a bottle. He drops it and ran. Problem solved.

You still can't accept that it would have been murder even if it was a break-in? Fascinating.

You are discussing law, I am not. I have no respect for criminal law, it does not relate to justice as I understand it. Too many examples support my sad belief.

 

[Dr. Keith]

You are discussing law, I am not. I have no respect for criminal law, it does not relate to justice as I understand it. Too many examples support my sad belief.

But this very predictable result is why the law is the way it is. If you allow people to shoot others willy nilly then innocent people die.

 

[Samson]

But this very predictable result is why the law is the way it is. If you allow people to shoot others willy nilly then innocent people die.

I live in a house without guns, a street where I know of no guns. It is 4 am and my porch door is open to thugs. That is the neighbourhood. Good luck must follow me so far, I guess we are lucky to live in these parts till the unexpected happens.....

 

[Dr. Keith]

I live in a house without guns, a street where I know of no guns. It is 4 am and my porch door is open to thugs. That is the neighbourhood. Good luck must follow me so far, I guess we are lucky to live in these parts till the unexpected happens.....

I'm not trying to pick an old wound, but I don't see how that addresses my post at all. There is a very logical reason for having a law where shooting an unidentified person who does not present an immediate threat to the shooter or others is murder. This case is an example of why it is a good law, not an example of why it is a bad law.

 

[Desert Fox]

I know you don't agree DF, but if it was mistaken identity by a cripple, jail is useless as a penalty.
Gun nuts are everywhere, which means they are not wicked, just dumb as fence posts. Remove the guns so everyone has hand to hand combat with which to settle matters.

Look, one thing that is certain is that Pistorius shot his girlfriend. All we are arguing is if it might be justified as self defense or if he meant to murder her. Generally proving self defense in most places is a higher burden where simple "I did not do it", the burden is suppose to be on the prosecution.

 

[Samson]

I'm not trying to pick an old wound, but I don't see how that addresses my post at all. There is a very logical reason for having a law where shooting an unidentified person who does not present an immediate threat to the shooter or others is murder. This case is an example of why it is a good law, not an example of why it is a bad law.

Place your bets. The same system can give him one year or fifteen. Crap system.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Place your bets. The same system can give him one year or fifteen. Crap system.

Again, I appreciate your reply not addressing what I have said. Thanks, it has been a productive conversation.

 

[snoop_doxie]

icerat

(1) he wasn't "walking", which immediately emphasises his experience is not a "normal human experience"

I just read this again today.

Wasn't he born that way?
I thought that his normal experience is as an amputee.

 

[icerat]

icerat

I just read this again today.

Wasn't he born that way?
I thought that his normal experience is as an amputee.

yes, which is different from the "normal human experience" that London John was referencing. I think it's wrong to assume that even the physical experience of moving around a bed in pitch black is the same as for an able-bodied person, let alone the psychological experience of doing so in a tense state.

 

[GlennB]

icerat

I just read this again today.

Wasn't he born that way?
I thought that his normal experience is as an amputee.

He was born without the tibia bones in his lower legs, so has certainly never walked without prosthetics.

 

[PartSkeptic]

My two cents.

I choose to live in South Africa despite being able to live in New Zealand or even in the USA.

Whites do not live in fear in my opinion. We grew up in a wild Continent, and for the most part accept that bad things (like death) happen. A lot of us have given up our guns, and do not carry all the time. But some people need to.

I followed the Pistorius trial on TV. Listened to the evidence. He contradicts himself. And the physical evidence, and circumstantial evidence point to an argument with his girlfriend who took locked herself in the toilet with her cell-phone, and Pistorius shot her in anger.

Ever since I first lived in South Africa (from 1976 before leaving for the USA and NZ) it was always illegal to shoot someone unless one was in fear for their life. Everyone knew that if you shot someone in the back outside your house you would drag them inside and claim that they had broken in, and hence your life was in danger. (In the bad old days, the police did it for you if you had not thought of it).

Pistorius knew that he had to use this defense from the time he shot and killed. That is the only reason he claimed self-defense based on mistaken identity immediately afterward.

The law is a good one, and has been improved upon. One has to identify the person or fire a warning shot. An intruder with a gun would not hide in the toilet. Typically home invasions with guns are usually gangs of four, and they catch you in your bed.

Yes, there are people who wake up in fear, and grab their fire-arm. One man shot his wife, and his remorse was so evident. Another man shot a warning shot into the roof, only to kill the intruder. He had to prove that he did not purposefully shoot knowing the intruder was on the roof.

Pistorius had a year to be "schooled" on how to act, and what to say, and yet his defense still had major flaws.

 

[Samson]

My two cents.

I choose to live in South Africa despite being able to live in New Zealand or even in the USA.

Whites do not live in fear in my opinion. We grew up in a wild Continent, and for the most part accept that bad things (like death) happen. A lot of us have given up our guns, and do not carry all the time. But some people need to.

I followed the Pistorius trial on TV. Listened to the evidence. He contradicts himself. And the physical evidence, and circumstantial evidence point to an argument with his girlfriend who took locked herself in the toilet with her cell-phone, and Pistorius shot her in anger.

Ever since I first lived in South Africa (from 1976 before leaving for the USA and NZ) it was always illegal to shoot someone unless one was in fear for their life. Everyone knew that if you shot someone in the back outside your house you would drag them inside and claim that they had broken in, and hence your life was in danger. (In the bad old days, the police did it for you if you had not thought of it).

Pistorius knew that he had to use this defense from the time he shot and killed. That is the only reason he claimed self-defense based on mistaken identity immediately afterward.

The law is a good one, and has been improved upon. One has to identify the person or fire a warning shot. An intruder with a gun would not hide in the toilet. Typically home invasions with guns are usually gangs of four, and they catch you in your bed.

Yes, there are people who wake up in fear, and grab their fire-arm. One man shot his wife, and his remorse was so evident. Another man shot a warning shot into the roof, only to kill the intruder. He had to prove that he did not purposefully shoot knowing the intruder was on the roof.

Pistorius had a year to be "schooled" on how to act, and what to say, and yet his defense still had major flaws.

Oscar has been denied leave to appeal his conviction finally, and may face 15 years, though who knows what Masipa can do. I would have thought discretion for her is gone.

The situation remains most unsatisfactory. If he knew he was shooting Reeva the sentence looks fair to on the light side.
But if he thought he was shooting an intruder, all we have is a deterrent sentence and two lives destroyed for the price of a mistake.