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Continuation Part 21: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Somewhere though, the police and prosecutors had to realize that they did not really have a case. . . . . .The problem, and I have seen it in a number of US cases as well, is that they were unwilling to back down.
 
Somewhere though, the police and prosecutors had to realize that they did not really have a case. . . . . .The problem, and I have seen it in a number of US cases as well, is that they were unwilling to back down.

Quite.

The problem is trying to pick a key point when this should have happened. Guede's involvement should have been the key moment. I think the DNA result from the knife appeared at this point and kept Sollecito and Knox in the frame.
 
Quite.

The problem is trying to pick a key point when this should have happened. Guede's involvement should have been the key moment. I think the DNA result from the knife appeared at this point and kept Sollecito and Knox in the frame.

I have seen plenty of other cases where the evidence is basically crap and if they got the right person, it is pure random luck. What I want to know is how to get police and prosecutors from pursuing such case.
 
Yes and no. A finding of not guilty (or not proven in Scotland and a small number of other antiquated jurisdictions) is not a positive finding of innocence. But it does axiomatically result in the preservation of the presumption of innocence.

And, as I've written before, a presumption is different from a proof. I presume, for example, that HM Queen Elizabeth II is biologically female - after all, all the evidence supports that presumption (the gender identity of her name and honorific, the fact that she self-identifies as female, and so on and so on). But in order to gain positive evidence or proof of her biological femininity, it would be necessary to do biological tests such as DNA and blood analysis.

Not really. The fact she gave birth 4 times is proof of her biological femininity.


Nope. It has been told that she gave birth four times. You can't be sure that these four children were biologically hers and were delivered from inside her body.

Incidentally, this points to a fascinating historical fact. For centuries, a senior member of the government (ultimately the Home Secretary) had to attend any royal birth to ensure that the birth was genuine, and that the baby truly did have royal lineage. This practice started after the infamous "warming pan scandal" of 1688, when the validity of the birth of the son and heir of King James II was challenged (supporters of rivals to the throne claimed that the real child had been born dead and had been replaced with another new-born infant carried to the birth chamber in a warming pan). There had also been a previous infamous royal pregnancy controversy when Queen Mary I ("Bloody Mary") had a bizarre phantom pregnancy in 1555. And the birth of Queen Elizabeth herself (then Princess Elizabeth of course, and the daughter of the brother of the heir apparent) was witnessed and verified by the then home secretary, Sir William Joynson-Hicks, in 1926. The practice only ended in 1948 when no government figure attended the birth of Prince Charles.

https://thehistoryofparliament.word...warming-pan-baby-james-edward-francis-stuart/

So in order to prove that Queen Elizabeth were biologically female, one would need irrefutable evidence that she had indeed given birth (and anecdotal eyewitness evidence from parties with potential vested interests is not irrefutable), and/or one would need reliable DNA or blood tests. Until then, all one can have is a presumption of the biological femininity of Queen Elizabeth.

And the very same is true of the question of the innocence of Knox and Sollecito. Everything points to their innocence, and indeed they should correctly be presumed innocent - whether legally, ethically or philosophically. But there is an absence of evidence to prove their innocence. However, this absence of evidence should not weaken the presumption of innocence, just as the absence of (e.g.) DNA tests should not weaken the presumption that Queen Elizabeth is biologically female.
 
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Quite.

The problem is trying to pick a key point when this should have happened. Guede's involvement should have been the key moment. I think the DNA result from the knife appeared at this point and kept Sollecito and Knox in the frame.


But the problem was that they had already triumphantly nailed their colours to the mast in their grand announcement that they'd "solved the crime" in quick-smart time and with maximum efficiency and skill. To row back on that would have been humiliating - especially to the monstrous egos of Mignini, Giobbi et al. Their professional (and, to an extent, personal) reputations would have been severely damaged.

And coupled with that, the discovery of evidence pointing clearly towards Guede gave them a cunning way to (in their eyes at least) preserve their credibility. They could say that their "solution" of the crime still stood in principle, but that all they'd got wrong was the identity of the third perpetrator (Lumumba vs Guede), and that this was only because the "cunning fox" Knox had disgracefully lied to them to point them in the direction of the wrong man.

Three further factors to bear in mind - factors which IMO also had a significant influence on the way Mignini and the police acted in November 2007 - were these: 1) Mignini was under increasing professional pressure at the time, on account of his bizarre, bungling and improper handling of the Monster of Florence investigation, and he needed a high-profile validation of his skill and judgement to bolster his reputation; 2) the Perugia police and prosecutors had been subjected to intense criticism over their handling of a not-dissimilar murder case almost exactly a year previously, where a bungled, incompetent investigation had led to the near-certain perpetrator being able to evade justice; and 3) the intense media furore around the Kercher case was something with which the Perugia prosecutors and police were unfamiliar - it must have seemed to them that the eyes of the world were on their investigation, and I think this instilled in the key players (notably Mignini, Giobbi and De Felice) a heightened need to be seen to be outstanding at their jobs, and also an unhealthy dose of "superstar" grandiosity.

I think that an understanding of a) the context and dynamics, and b) the personalities and characters of the key players, is critical to any attempt to understand how and why the police/prosecutors did what they did in November 2007 - and beyond into the trial phase. Unfortunately I think there was a near "perfect storm" of huge egos, pressure to deliver results, and a need to be seen to be fast and skilful in "solving the crime" which resulted in the dreadful set of decisions they took.
 
If you try and follow things through from the police / prosecution point of view it is interesting to see how the errors occurred. Now it is difficult to know exactly who knew what when so there are some assumptions.

One of the key problems seems to be that the police make assumptions and once made have difficulty in revisiting the assumptions. So very early the investigators conclude that the break in was false. It is not unreasonable to think this. Evidence pointing to this was the suggestion that the outer shutters were closed which would mean that the stone could have not been thrown through the window, the stone appeared big and the window high for a break in and other routes easier. The fact they were led to think nothing had been stolen (not true as it happened), clothes were scattered on the floor with glass fragments on the top as if the clothes had been thrown around first then the window broken. Although grounds for suspicion, none of these are proof of a staged break in. Detailed forensic examination of this room did not occur. There was not detailed examination of the route of entry from the outside, no one looked under clothing to see if glass was under clothing, the glass was not examined to confirm direction of breakage, and the distribution of glass fragments was not analysed which would have revealed the direction of breakage. The police went with first impressions, psychologically these are very strong and difficult to reverse. Our own Vixen is a good example, Vixen always references the first reports, and has difficulty moving on from the first impressions. This assumption of staging then led to the suspicion that the case was an 'inside job'. One confounding issue was they may not have initially been aware that Romanelli had entered the room , and removed item(s)disturbing the crime scene. (I suspect in addition to her computer she removed drugs as she was known to supply cannabis to Knox, and none was apparently found. So the police looked to Kercher's flatmates, indeed most murders are not by strangers, as was the case here. If we then add in the odd to the police behaviour of Knox and Sollecito their initial suspicions were reasonable.

I think that it was deliberately planned to bring Sollecito and Knox to the police station together for interviewing. To try and pick a hole in the story. I suspect the casual discussion in the corridor moving to an interview was a deliberate ploy to try and catch Knox off her guard. We know how Sollecito because of confusion over the day appeared to withdraw Knox's alibi, then Knox appeared to have an arrangement to meet someone that evening that she initially denied. leading to increasingly confrontational questioning the collapse of Knox and an apparent admission of involvement. Case solved, confessions trump evidence, then things started to go wrong. What never seemed to happen was a case review to say 'did we get this wrong?'.

Initial evidence supported the police view (and shows the why forensic scientists have to be neutral and not seek to provide evidence of guilt). The initial report on the bloody prints was that the prints matched Sollecito's shoes. This as everyone accepts was clearly an error. But it clearly demonstrates the bias of the forensic scientists. (In the UK the police have a statutory duty (PACE) to seek evidence to exonerate suspects). I suspect the postal police claimed time of arrival added to the evidence of guilt. The problems with computer forensics meant the police did nt have early evidence of Sollecito's being at home after 21.00.

Mignini should have followed the spirit and letter of the law, when rung the night of questioning he should have said arrest them and I will question them tomorrow in the presence of their lawyers. Instead trying to skirt round their right to counsel Mignini elicited a spontaneous statement, then kept Knox without access to counsel during which time she produced further written statements.

So what went wrong? Guede's friend reported him to the police as the possible murderer, forensic investigations came up with an unknown male, subsequently the handprint being identified with Guede. Lumumba had an alibi. The shoeprint evidence against Sollecito collapsed. The bloody print on the bath mat was not matched to Sollecito until later. The knife DNA result probably became available about this time. 17 November? The errors in documentation and oddities in processing suggest this was hurried through. The report from Steffanoni would have reinforced the police view that Solicito and Knox were involved. It is just at this point Guede is arrested and interviewed, presumably some recognition of his possible involvement in burglary comes to light.

What never seems to happen is a review and an attempt to question what the evidence says. But to be fair to the police, the bias in the forensics misled them.

Looking back, the pursuit of Knox and Sollecito is comprehensible. It was a consequence of an immediate assumption about the breaking that was never properly assessed or investigated. Mistakes in the forensic science that delayed exonerating evidence like the computer data (and possibly CCTV), and a focus on finding evidence to support the police assumptions rather than realising the importance of testing assumptions by looking for exonerating evidence and knowing the limits of interpretation of the evidence. (Luminal positive prints may or may not be due to blood, DNA does not necessarily mean direct contact, a blurry footprint is a blurry footprint.


I agree with all of this. The only thing I'd argue is that I strongly suspect that the mistakes, incompetence and malpractice in most of the forensic science in this case ought to be viewed through the prism of the improper relationship between the police/prosecutors and the forensics team. It certainly appears that this was (and probably still is) an institutionalised problem in Italy. In essence, the police and PM were asking the forensics teams to deliver a certain set of outcomes to support their case, rather than simply requesting an objective analysis. And even the language (and implied meaning of language) used in the communication can have a big effect. Consider the bra clasp in this case, for example. And consider two different police/PM communications with Stefanoni:

1) "Look at the bra clasp, see if you can find any usable DNA on it, and if you can, see if it corresponds with any of the reference DNA profiles."

2) "We think Sollecito handled the bra clasp. We'd really like you to be able to find Sollecito's DNA on that clasp if you can. And if you can, it will really help our case against Sollecito (and Knox) enormously."

So I believe the entire system was set up to fail, and to give improper and misleading outcomes. And this problem should have been readily identifiable and addressed long, long before November 2007. Again, if there are to be any positive outcomes from this sorry saga, one of them might be for Italy to re-evaluate the relationship between its forensic science unit and the police/PMs, in order to minimise the chances of suspect-centric impropriety and produce fair, objective results and outcomes. But Italy being Italy, I doubt that this lesson will be learned...........
 
I agree with all of this. The only thing I'd argue is that I strongly suspect that the mistakes, incompetence and malpractice in most of the forensic science in this case ought to be viewed through the prism of the improper relationship between the police/prosecutors and the forensics team. It certainly appears that this was (and probably still is) an institutionalised problem in Italy. In essence, the police and PM were asking the forensics teams to deliver a certain set of outcomes to support their case, rather than simply requesting an objective analysis. And even the language (and implied meaning of language) used in the communication can have a big effect. Consider the bra clasp in this case, for example. And consider two different police/PM communications with Stefanoni:

1) "Look at the bra clasp, see if you can find any usable DNA on it, and if you can, see if it corresponds with any of the reference DNA profiles."

2) "We think Sollecito handled the bra clasp. We'd really like you to be able to find Sollecito's DNA on that clasp if you can. And if you can, it will really help our case against Sollecito (and Knox) enormously."

So I believe the entire system was set up to fail, and to give improper and misleading outcomes. And this problem should have been readily identifiable and addressed long, long before November 2007. Again, if there are to be any positive outcomes from this sorry saga, one of them might be for Italy to re-evaluate the relationship between its forensic science unit and the police/PMs, in order to minimise the chances of suspect-centric impropriety and produce fair, objective results and outcomes. But Italy being Italy, I doubt that this lesson will be learned...........

I agree. Certainly one issue is that the investigating magistrate Mignini directs the investigation so unlike CPS or prosecutors in the US there is not an independent review of the case. As said I think Mignini was too egocentric to recognise his error, and probably did not welcome disagreement from the police.

The forensic scientists were too close to the police (inevitably as they are part of the police- Steffanoni is a uniformed police officer all be it in a technical area).

The prosecutors need to be separated from the police and review not lead the investigation. The forensic science services need to be arms length from the police.

One issue in the Italian legal system is that prosecution of suspects is nearly inevitable. In the UK prosecutions only proceed if there is a beterrthan 50% chance of achieving a conviction, in Italy all suspects have to be prosecuted even if the case is weak.
 
If you try and follow things through from the police / prosecution point of view it is interesting to see how the errors occurred. Now it is difficult to know exactly who knew what when so there are some assumptions.

One of the key problems seems to be that the police make assumptions and once made have difficulty in revisiting the assumptions. So very early the investigators conclude that the break in was false. It is not unreasonable to think this. Evidence pointing to this was the suggestion that the outer shutters were closed which would mean that the stone could have not been thrown through the window, the stone appeared big and the window high for a break in and other routes easier. The fact they were led to think nothing had been stolen (not true as it happened), clothes were scattered on the floor with glass fragments on the top as if the clothes had been thrown around first then the window broken. Although grounds for suspicion, none of these are proof of a staged break in. Detailed forensic examination of this room did not occur. There was not detailed examination of the route of entry from the outside, no one looked under clothing to see if glass was under clothing, the glass was not examined to confirm direction of breakage, and the distribution of glass fragments was not analysed which would have revealed the direction of breakage. The police went with first impressions, psychologically these are very strong and difficult to reverse. ....

One possibility I believe should be kept in mind is that the police chose to assume that the break-in was staged, not so much because of any evidence of that, but because it simplified their search for suspects. It the break-in were a "real" break-in by some unknown person(s), then there would be considerable police effort and time required to find that person. If the break-in were staged, the suspect(s) must be or include person(s) with access to the cottage flat. BINGO! (Which means, Immediate Solution or Immediate Win - for the police in "solving" the crime and advancing their careers.) And Knox was the most vulnerable - in terms of minimal alibi support, compared to the other roommates, according to Giobbi.
 
I agree. Certainly one issue is that the investigating magistrate Mignini directs the investigation so unlike CPS or prosecutors in the US there is not an independent review of the case. As said I think Mignini was too egocentric to recognise his error, and probably did not welcome disagreement from the police.

The forensic scientists were too close to the police (inevitably as they are part of the police- Steffanoni is a uniformed police officer all be it in a technical area).

The prosecutors need to be separated from the police and review not lead the investigation. The forensic science services need to be arms length from the police.

One issue in the Italian legal system is that prosecution of suspects is nearly inevitable. In the UK prosecutions only proceed if there is a beterrthan 50% chance of achieving a conviction, in Italy all suspects have to be prosecuted even if the case is weak.


Indeed. And to take the last point further, there still appears to be an improper tendency among the Italian media and public and - far, far more worryingly - sections of the judiciary, to treat anyone who's got as far as being charged with a "there's no smoke without fire" presumption of guilt. Again, I strongly suspect this harks back to the bad old days of inquisitorial "justice", where the (dreadfully unjust) presumption appeared to be that if the "scrupulously neutral and only interested in establishing the truth" PM decided there was sufficient evidence to go to trial, then this almost by default meant that the defendant was as good as guilty - unless the defendant could actively disprove the PM's case (or the court's own case), or prove his/her innocence somehow.
 
I agree with all of this. The only thing I'd argue is that I strongly suspect that the mistakes, incompetence and malpractice in most of the forensic science in this case ought to be viewed through the prism of the improper relationship between the police/prosecutors and the forensics team. It certainly appears that this was (and probably still is) an institutionalised problem in Italy. In essence, the police and PM were asking the forensics teams to deliver a certain set of outcomes to support their case, rather than simply requesting an objective analysis. And even the language (and implied meaning of language) used in the communication can have a big effect. Consider the bra clasp in this case, for example. And consider two different police/PM communications with Stefanoni:

1) "Look at the bra clasp, see if you can find any usable DNA on it, and if you can, see if it corresponds with any of the reference DNA profiles."

2) "We think Sollecito handled the bra clasp. We'd really like you to be able to find Sollecito's DNA on that clasp if you can. And if you can, it will really help our case against Sollecito (and Knox) enormously."

So I believe the entire system was set up to fail, and to give improper and misleading outcomes. And this problem should have been readily identifiable and addressed long, long before November 2007. Again, if there are to be any positive outcomes from this sorry saga, one of them might be for Italy to re-evaluate the relationship between its forensic science unit and the police/PMs, in order to minimise the chances of suspect-centric impropriety and produce fair, objective results and outcomes. But Italy being Italy, I doubt that this lesson will be learned...........

Add to this the potential quashing of the presumed-semen-stain testing. There's a video of Stefanoni at the scene on her mobile-phone telling someone at the other end to make sure a semen stain is tested. Whatever happened between that "gathca" video, and the eventual crafty of the Massei motivations report in 2010, there was now a official (judicial truth?) absolving Stefanoni for NOT testing the stain.

The official reason?

Massei report said:
At the hearing of December 4 the Defence for Sollecito concluded the rebuttals, submitting a memorandum evidencing that on the site of the inspection of May 25, 2009, on the pillowcase of the pillow found in the victim’s room some stains had been found with the ‚crimescope‛ that could have been spermatic in nature and that these had not been the object of any genetic analysis. In relation to this contention, various questions were raised as to the necessity of testing relative to these stains.​

Massei report said:
As [the Court] has already pointed out, it does not recognize the necessity, as requested and defined by articles 523 and 507 of the Criminal Procedure Code, for [382] new evidence to be introduced.

In this regard, what has been previously observed on the subject is called to mind; with specific reference to the stains found on the pillowcase, particular mention of which was made by Sollecito’s defence *team+ during the trial and in the related illustrative memorandum, the following should be noted: even if a genetic investigation established the spermatic nature of these stains, such an investigation, as a rule, would not allow these stains to be dated and, in particular, it would not be possible to establish that they had been deposited on the night on which Meredith was killed. It having furthermore been established that Meredith had an active sexual life and at times had intercourse in her own room (cf. on this point the statements of her boyfriend Giacomo Silenzi) such an investigation, besides not being of a strictly necessary nature due to the impossibility of dating [i.e. establishing the date] (cf. what was elucidated on this aspect by the genetic experts), might also yield an entirely irrelevant outcome even for establishing the spermatic nature of those very stains and seems to be, therefore, a purely explorative activity, [which] is not permitted at this stage of the proceedings because it is lacking in the requirement for absolute necessity which was, on the contrary, requested.​
This is one example of where the investigative myopia and incompetence was buttressed by "judicial truth". If the stain had been Raffaele's, most of us innocentisti here would be guilters. If the stain had been Rudy's, there would have been a de facto time-stamp on when it could have been deposited.

But the thing is, there's a properly constituted court in a major Western country which decides things based on stupid, possibly corrupt reasoning. The "improper relationship between the police/prosecutors and the forensics team" goes well beyond that - it extends into the judiciary itself.
 
Somewhere though, the police and prosecutors had to realize that they did not really have a case. . . . . .The problem, and I have seen it in a number of US cases as well, is that they were unwilling to back down.

Quite.

The problem is trying to pick a key point when this should have happened. Guede's involvement should have been the key moment. I think the DNA result from the knife appeared at this point and kept Sollecito and Knox in the frame.

This presupposes that they believed or cared whether Knox and Sollecito were involved at any time. We can see how the initial police theories evolved into the prosecution case in the early weeks, until they settled on a 3-way murder scenario:
  1. They concluded that Lumumba was the killer and that Knox had to have let him in;
  2. they decided that Knox had to change her story from having spent the night at Sollecito's flat;
  3. they had to get Sollecito to withdraw his alibi for her;
  4. with Knox and Sollecito's lack of willing cooperation, they decided they had to arrest them as well as Lumumba;
  5. when Lumumba was cleared, they needed to blame Knox for their actions in arresting him;
  6. they also needed a justification for arresting Sollecito;
  7. the easiest way to achieve this was to charge the 2 of them with the murder along with the new suspect;
  8. they were confident that nothing they did would ever be subject to scrutiny;
  9. when they thought they needed "evidence", they pulled whatever conjuring trick they could think of to create some.
There was never any point when they would have drawn back and said to themselves, "we've got it wrong", because they regarded the courts' role as simply to rubber-stamp whatever they came up with.
 
Well I'd argue that it's more nuanced that this. I'd argue that the stomach/intestine evidence strongly supports a ToD before 10.00pm, and more likely between 9.00-9.30pm, and that the cellphone evidence also strongly supports a ToD before 10.00pm. And that this in turn strongly supports an argument for the absolute (factual) innocence of Knox and Sollecito, on account of Sollecito's computer interaction evidence and the alleged group dynamics that would have necessarily had to take place prior to the supposed group (Knox, Sollecito, Guede) attack and murder.

But it's actually (IMO) still practically and feasibly possible for Knox and/or Sollecito to have been involved in the murder. Of course IMO (and in the view of any competent, reasonable court) they had absolutely nothing to do with it, but the fact that the timeline issues make it hugely improbable don't make it impossible. And therefore IMO it's impossible to state that the evidence shows proof of the absolute evidence of Knox and Sollecito.

That having been said, I'd reiterate that the combination of the total absence of any credible, reliable evidence of guilt, coupled with evidence which strongly points to Knox and Sollecito having been unable to participate in the attack/murder from a timeline analysis perspective, should lead all logical, reasonable, objective analysts to conclude not only that Knox and Sollecito were correctly and safely acquitted, but also that Knox and Sollecito almost certainly had nothing whatsoever in fact to do with the murder.

Yes I agree.

I could beat Usain Bolt in the 100m sprint tomorrow. It's practically possible but the possibility is as close to zero as to nuance the argument towards absolute zero.
 
Quite.

The problem is trying to pick a key point when this should have happened. Guede's involvement should have been the key moment. I think the DNA result from the knife appeared at this point and kept Sollecito and Knox in the frame.

It would be fascinating to listen to the interviews with Rudi after he was returned to Perugia both by the police and Mignini.
 
This presupposes that they believed or cared whether Knox and Sollecito were involved at any time. We can see how the initial police theories evolved into the prosecution case in the early weeks, until they settled on a 3-way murder scenario:
  1. They concluded that Lumumba was the killer and that Knox had to have let him in;
  2. they decided that Knox had to change her story from having spent the night at Sollecito's flat;
  3. they had to get Sollecito to withdraw his alibi for her;
  4. with Knox and Sollecito's lack of willing cooperation, they decided they had to arrest them as well as Lumumba;
  5. when Lumumba was cleared, they needed to blame Knox for their actions in arresting him;
  6. they also needed a justification for arresting Sollecito;
  7. the easiest way to achieve this was to charge the 2 of them with the murder along with the new suspect;
  8. they were confident that nothing they did would ever be subject to scrutiny;
  9. when they thought they needed "evidence", they pulled whatever conjuring trick they could think of to create some.
There was never any point when they would have drawn back and said to themselves, "we've got it wrong", because they regarded the courts' role as simply to rubber-stamp whatever they came up with.

I think this is an accurate summary, based on reasonable inferences.

I do have one objection. I believe that the police reasoning for the first point, as testified to by Giobbi, with some inference by me, should be expanded to read:

1. This case involves a break-in by an unknown person. That makes it difficult or even potentially impossible to solve, but the world media is watching and we - the Italian authorities - need an immediate solution.

2. This case can be solved quickly if we can accuse known persons.

3. Therefore, let's assume the break-in was staged.

4. Amanda Knox, a foreigner in Italy who can barely speak Italian, has the weakest alibi for the night of the murder; only her Italian boyfriend can vouch for her wearabouts elsewhere. And, of course, she had access to her flat that she shared with Meredith.

5. Neither Amanda nor her boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, seem like aggressive persons who could kill someone. But Amanda works for Patrick Lumumba, a black African, who we can blame because of racist attitudes in Italy. And he's really a foreigner here in Italy.

6. Bring in Amanda and Raffaele for questioning to force them to tell us what we - the Italian authorities - have decided that we know. This will solve the case immediately, and we - the police and prosecutor - will become heroes. The Italian courts will accept whatever evidence we choose to produce to convict those we - the police and prosecutor - accuse.
 
But the problem was that they had already triumphantly nailed their colours to the mast in their grand announcement that they'd "solved the crime" in quick-smart time and with maximum efficiency and skill. To row back on that would have been humiliating - especially to the monstrous egos of Mignini, Giobbi et al. Their professional (and, to an extent, personal) reputations would have been severely damaged.

And coupled with that, the discovery of evidence pointing clearly towards Guede gave them a cunning way to (in their eyes at least) preserve their credibility. They could say that their "solution" of the crime still stood in principle, but that all they'd got wrong was the identity of the third perpetrator (Lumumba vs Guede), and that this was only because the "cunning fox" Knox had disgracefully lied to them to point them in the direction of the wrong man.

Three further factors to bear in mind - factors which IMO also had a significant influence on the way Mignini and the police acted in November 2007 - were these: 1) Mignini was under increasing professional pressure at the time, on account of his bizarre, bungling and improper handling of the Monster of Florence investigation, and he needed a high-profile validation of his skill and judgement to bolster his reputation; 2) the Perugia police and prosecutors had been subjected to intense criticism over their handling of a not-dissimilar murder case almost exactly a year previously, where a bungled, incompetent investigation had led to the near-certain perpetrator being able to evade justice; and 3) the intense media furore around the Kercher case was something with which the Perugia prosecutors and police were unfamiliar - it must have seemed to them that the eyes of the world were on their investigation, and I think this instilled in the key players (notably Mignini, Giobbi and De Felice) a heightened need to be seen to be outstanding at their jobs, and also an unhealthy dose of "superstar" grandiosity.

I think that an understanding of a) the context and dynamics, and b) the personalities and characters of the key players, is critical to any attempt to understand how and why the police/prosecutors did what they did in November 2007 - and beyond into the trial phase. Unfortunately I think there was a near "perfect storm" of huge egos, pressure to deliver results, and a need to be seen to be fast and skilful in "solving the crime" which resulted in the dreadful set of decisions they took.

I agree. The Squadra Mobile were given medals
“To recognize elevated professional capabilities, investigative acumen, and an uncommon operative determination. They conducted a complex investigation that concluded in the arrest of the authors of the murder of the British student that had taken place in the historic center of Perugia.”

Of course, we know this incredible job of investigation would later be revealed to be horribly inept and incompetent.
 
Nope. It has been told that she gave birth four times. You can't be sure that these four children were biologically hers and were delivered from inside her body.

Incidentally, this points to a fascinating historical fact. For centuries, a senior member of the government (ultimately the Home Secretary) had to attend any royal birth to ensure that the birth was genuine, and that the baby truly did have royal lineage. This practice started after the infamous "warming pan scandal" of 1688, when the validity of the birth of the son and heir of King James II was challenged (supporters of rivals to the throne claimed that the real child had been born dead and had been replaced with another new-born infant carried to the birth chamber in a warming pan). There had also been a previous infamous royal pregnancy controversy when Queen Mary I ("Bloody Mary") had a bizarre phantom pregnancy in 1555. And the birth of Queen Elizabeth herself (then Princess Elizabeth of course, and the daughter of the brother of the heir apparent) was witnessed and verified by the then home secretary, Sir William Joynson-Hicks, in 1926. The practice only ended in 1948 when no government figure attended the birth of Prince Charles.

https://thehistoryofparliament.word...warming-pan-baby-james-edward-francis-stuart/

So in order to prove that Queen Elizabeth were biologically female, one would need irrefutable evidence that she had indeed given birth (and anecdotal eyewitness evidence from parties with potential vested interests is not irrefutable), and/or one would need reliable DNA or blood tests. Until then, all one can have is a presumption of the biological femininity of Queen Elizabeth.

And the very same is true of the question of the innocence of Knox and Sollecito. Everything points to their innocence, and indeed they should correctly be presumed innocent - whether legally, ethically or philosophically. But there is an absence of evidence to prove their innocence. However, this absence of evidence should not weaken the presumption of innocence, just as the absence of (e.g.) DNA tests should not weaken the presumption that Queen Elizabeth is biologically female.

I see your point. But we'd also have to prove that whoever was doing the DNA and blood analyses was competent and/or not "on the take" or pressured to deliver false results. :D
After all, Hellman was "bought off" as well as Marasca Bruno being pressured by the US government to acquit. :eye-poppi
 
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I agree. The Squadra Mobile were given medals
“To recognize elevated professional capabilities, investigative acumen, and an uncommon operative determination. They conducted a complex investigation that concluded in the arrest of the authors of the murder of the British student that had taken place in the historic center of Perugia.”

Of course, we know this incredible job of investigation would later be revealed to be horribly inept and incompetent.

And fraudulent.
 
“To recognize elevated professional capabilities, investigative acumen, and an uncommon operative determination. They conducted a complex investigation that concluded in the arrest of the authors of the murder of the British student that had taken place in the historic center of Perugia.”

lol
 
The biggest problem I see with this case is the Italian system that lets someone like Mignini decide who to investigate instead of just letting the detectives follow the evidence.
 
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