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Continuation Part 21: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Depends what false claims are made. And who says amen.

There are plenty of places for cheerleaders to gather. Ask and you can join one of their FB groups and really put me down.

Perhaps Anton was giving his perception of the acquittal. He never mentioned the CPP Article 530 paragraphs that are so important to you and some others.

When people are saying that Raffaele and Amanda were found innocent, or that they are innocent, and not referencing the CPP, in your opinion are they possibly giving an opinion or perception, and not attempting to assume the role of expert on Italian law?
 
I haven't read any false claims, just picky bs.

Thanks for the opening. Just up-thread there was a claim they were found innocent by M&B rather than not guilty para 2.

Anton Savage what a joke.

See (from Black's law dictionary):

http://thelawdictionary.org/verdict-of-not-guilty/

What is VERDICT OF NOT GUILTY? a verdict declaring the case is not proven against the defendant. It does not mean he is innocent.
 
Perhaps Anton was giving his perception of the acquittal. He never mentioned the CPP Article 530 paragraphs that are so important to you and some others.

When people are saying that Raffaele and Amanda were found innocent, or that they are innocent, and not referencing the CPP, in your opinion are they possibly giving an opinion or perception, and not attempting to assume the role of expert on Italian law?
Perhaps you should re-listen.

Why would you even post it if it is just a guy-on-the-street's opinion? Sure seemed like you trying to substantiate your POV.

Should I quote some of the 21000 that have signed the petition to remove Raf from the TV show?

ETA - here's what you wrote earlier - This was posted earlier on IIP by MichaelB. It is of specific relevance to the current discussion (which someone claims I am unable to follow) because the interviewer, Anton, states words to the effect that the Marasca CSC judgment established that Raffaele and Amanda were "not only not guilty but were definitively innocent". Raffaele does not disagree.
 
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Thanks for the opening. Just up-thread there was a claim they were found innocent by M&B rather than not guilty para 2.

Anton Savage what a joke.

See (from Black's law dictionary):

http://thelawdictionary.org/verdict-of-not-guilty/

What is VERDICT OF NOT GUILTY? a verdict declaring the case is not proven against the defendant. It does not mean he is innocent.

And who cares? Also Black's Law is a references for US Law not Italian.

The fact is Amanda and Raffaele ARE INNOCENT. They ACTUALLY had nothing to do with Meredith's murder. The evidence proved that to me a long long time ago. And if I'm not mistaken you too are convinced of their actual innocence.

So why are we beating this dead horse over and over and over?
 
And who cares? Also Black's Law is a references for US Law not Italian.

The fact is Amanda and Raffaele ARE INNOCENT. They ACTUALLY had nothing to do with Meredith's murder. The evidence proved that to me a long long time ago. And if I'm not mistaken you too are convinced of their actual innocence.

So why are we beating this dead horse over and over and over?
I agree: Lets go back to the Poor, Poor, Rudy discussion.
 
Bill I provide plenty and not "I've been told" sources. Why don't you provide something, anything that backs your claim that there is no difference.



And you have provided nothing. Actually it was Vixen that provided the quote and when LJ wanted to see the source again I found it and linked to it. Also Cheli made it clear that when he found out it was a para 2 that meant it wouldn't be a clear cut case for innocence.



Wow. Numbers and LJ (who was sure it was a para1) right much better than Cheli and a woman that received a real doctorate in Italy and is a professor of Italian history and culture a respected university.



As has been demonstrated "not guilty" doesn't equate to innocent.Of course I'm sure you think Amanda was silly to hope for an innocent verdict and not just a shortage of evidence.

This whole debate is silly. "Not guilty" does not necessarily mean innocent but it certainly may. In the AK and RS case they are both not guilty and certainly innocent.

How do I know this? ...because I'm not an idiot.
 
I agree: Lets go back to the Poor, Poor, Rudy discussion.

No, why don't we argue whether Rudy spells his name with a y or an i? BTW, what happened to Vixen? Did she hang up her spurs and riding crop? Or did she get banned?
 
Can you find a legal expert to confirm that there is no legal or perception difference between a 1 and a 2?

Can you demonstrate that they asked for a para 2 dismissal?

Can you find a quote from the defense lawyers that the kids may be guilty but the prosecution didn't make the case?

I will not state this again. There are no Italian legal experts posting here including myself. I do not know what the legal differences between a one and two are.

You don't have to be a legal expert in Italian (or any other) law to know that there is no legal difference between 530.1 and 530.2.

The criminal legal consequences are identical.
 
And who cares? Also Black's Law is a references for US Law not Italian.

The fact is Amanda and Raffaele ARE INNOCENT. They ACTUALLY had nothing to do with Meredith's murder. The evidence proved that to me a long long time ago. And if I'm not mistaken you too are convinced of their actual innocence.

So why are we beating this dead horse over and over and over?

I'll stop when... as I said above.

Yes in Italy they have an even easier system to understand. If one receives a paragraph one acquittal it is for innocence either because the defendant was found definitively not to done the crime or the crime didn't occur while a para two is not guilty/ not proven.

What I think is that the ILE didn't prove their case for sure and that I can't see a way that both of the kids were involved in the crime in any way.

Btw, you didn't complain when someone used an English dictionary, albeit in a backwards fashion, showing if one is innocent one is also not guilty. In fact, I think you cheered it. Then when I show the legal definition emphasizing not guilty isn't innocent, explicitly, you pipe up that it isn't in Italian.

Why don't you go and see if you can find the MR for the latest calunnia verdict? I'm hoping it's a para one acquittal. :p
 
Perhaps Anton was giving his perception of the acquittal. He never mentioned the CPP Article 530 paragraphs that are so important to you and some others.

When people are saying that Raffaele and Amanda were found innocent, or that they are innocent, and not referencing the CPP, in your opinion are they possibly giving an opinion or perception, and not attempting to assume the role of expert on Italian law?

Grinder is arguing (falsely IMO) that Luca Cheli writes that one of the "shadows" emanating from the M/B report is that it was not a clear declaration of innocence. Grinder is wanting at some level to argue the Italian view of the M/B report on the grounds of perception.

Well..... Anton sure seems to perceive the action of the M/B panel of the ISC to have declared them innocent. Remind me again why this 21st Continuation of the thread has been dominated by claims of what Italians themselves either do or do not perceive?
 
You don't have to be a legal expert in Italian (or any other) law to know that there is no legal difference between 530.1 and 530.2.

The criminal legal consequences are identical.

Right Mike did your prof 30 years ago tell you that? You have no idea if there are differences legally. Tell me, can a person found not guilty para one be sued civilly later? I know that isn't a criminal consequence but of course I have never maintain there is a legal criminal consequence - straw man.

Time for Bill to ask his ask and answered question.
 
Grinder is arguing (falsely IMO) that Luca Cheli writes that one of the "shadows" emanating from the M/B report is that it was not a clear declaration of innocence. Grinder is wanting at some level to argue the Italian view of the M/B report on the grounds of perception.

Well..... Anton sure seems to perceive the action of the M/B panel of the ISC to have declared them innocent. Remind me again why this 21st Continuation of the thread has been dominated by claims of what Italians themselves either do or do not perceive?

Since the acquittal is based on paragraph 2 of article 530 of the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure, which provides for a judge to pronounce a verdict of acquittal “when evidence is lacking, insufficient or contradictory”, it was to be expected that it would not have been a clearcut, one-sided proclamation of innocence.
Also, by paying attention to the text of the verdict back in March, it was already clear to me that, since the acquittal for the charge of staging a burglary was due to the defendant not having committed the crime and not to the crime not existing, this new ruling was going to accept the theory of a staged burglary and hence, most probably, of multiple attackers.​

Bingo Yup as Anton says a clear-cut verdict of innocence. Oops.

Do you not see how pathetic using an Irish talk show host is?

ETA - you thought Anton is Italian?
 
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And who cares? Also Black's Law is a references for US Law not Italian.

The fact is Amanda and Raffaele ARE INNOCENT. They ACTUALLY had nothing to do with Meredith's murder. The evidence proved that to me a long long time ago. And if I'm not mistaken you too are convinced of their actual innocence.

So why are we beating this dead horse over and over and over?
Is Blacks Law more accurate than Anton Savage?
If factoids were out of bounds, nobody would have ever heard of Amanda or Raffaele!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Give'em hell Raff
 
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No, why don't we argue whether Rudy spells his name with a y or an i? BTW, what happened to Vixen? Did she hang up her spurs and riding crop? Or did she get banned?

There is no argument. Rudi spells his name with a 'y' but in court documents it is predominantly spelled with an 'i'. I unlike others don't cater to his desires.
 
There is no argument. Rudi spells his name with a 'y' but in court documents it is predominantly spelled with an 'i'. I unlike others don't cater to his desires.

Just curious, do you feel the same way with Chelsea Manning vs Bradley Manning?
 
Perhaps you should re-listen.

Why would you even post it if it is just a guy-on-the-street's opinion? Sure seemed like you trying to substantiate your POV.

Should I quote some of the 21000 that have signed the petition to remove Raf from the TV show?

ETA - here's what you wrote earlier - This was posted earlier on IIP by MichaelB. It is of specific relevance to the current discussion (which someone claims I am unable to follow) because the interviewer, Anton, states words to the effect that the Marasca CSC judgment established that Raffaele and Amanda were "not only not guilty but were definitively innocent". Raffaele does not disagree.

So do you disagree that it is of specific relevance? I knew that you would find the wording that Anton (Savage) used interesting and thought-provoking.

I didn't write that Anton was an expert in Italian law or that what he stated was correct or not.

One proposition, to help people understand part of the confusion of words and definitions here, is that ONE definition of "innocent" is "not guilty" as found by a court of law. This may be a common or colloquial definition. It is what I mean when I write "legally innocent".

Another definition, which may be what Black's dictionary is using, is that "innocent" means "absolutely innocent" - that is, if we knew all the facts, even beyond those entered into evidence - as God would know, for example - then we would know for sure whether or not that person had committed or not committed the crime. The trier of fact, whether judge or jury, is not perfect and can render a wrongful "not guilty" just as it can render a wrongful "guilty" verdict.

Another possibility which Black's may be pointing at is that the "not guilty" finding could be the result of, for example, a finding that police added false incriminating evidence to the case, and this was detected in the trial, and the trier (judge or jury) thus delivered a "not guilty" verdict, even though possibly the defendant was indeed factually guilty, or that some violation of procedural law led to the finding of "not guilty".

Now, in my opinion, the evidence - which is essentially a lack of any reliable or credible evidence of guilt, and to a lesser degree the evidence that Raffaele and Amanda were, as they stated when not under police pressure, together at his apartment throughout the night (which seems reasonable for a couple in a relationship), indicates that they are "not guilty" = "legally innocent" and "actually innocent" insofar as humans can determine.

As for the question of the meaning of CPP Article 530.2 compared to 530.1, in my opinion it means something quite different than what either Grinder or even LondonJohn propose.

I believe CPP Article 530.1 means that the judge, in a miraculous sense, knows, or is informed by the Chief Inquisitor (historically) or by an investigating judge or prosecutor (in more recent times) that the accused should be acquitted. That is how acquittals occurred in the inquisitorial system, IIUC.

In contrast, CPP Article 530.2, added in 1988 as part of a reform to create an adversarial trial system in conformance with Italian obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights (which mandates that trials be adversarial), forces the judge to evaluate evidence and to acquit in the case that there was insufficient, contradictory or lacking proof of guilt (or that the criminal act occurred, or that the act was an offense under the law, or that the accused had the mental capacity to be held criminally responsible). This was at attempt to state that a guilty verdict was to be based on "proof beyond a reasonable doubt".

The Italian parliament, after some experience with the 1988 reform and the resistance to it by the Italian courts, decided to firm up the concept of convicting only when guilt was proven BARD and thus adopted a law in 2006 which is codified as CPP Article 533: The judge shall deliver a judgment of conviction if the accused is proven to be guilty of the alleged offence beyond a reasonable doubt.

There are no differences in legal consequences for an acquittal under CPP Article 530.1 compared to 530.2. Looking at the grammatical structure of the two paragraphs, one can see that the second paragraph is tied to the first. The end of the first paragraph (530.1) is "...the judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal, mentioning the cause {this means one or more of the 5 specifications} in the operative part {this means the short-form verdict and PQM of the motivation} of the judgment." The beginning of the second paragraph (530.2) is "The judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal ALSO...." The "ALSO" is one indication that the acquittals are, and are meant to be, equivalent legally, IMO.

Of course, people are free to have whatever perceptions or opinions they wish on this matter. But I am confident, based on my reading, that my analysis is the reality.
 
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So do you disagree that it is of specific relevance? I knew that you would find the wording that Anton (Savage) used interesting and thought-provoking.

I didn't write that Anton was an expert in Italian law or that what he stated was correct or not.

One proposition, to help people understand part of the confusion of words and definitions here, is that ONE definition of "innocent" is "not guilty" as found by a court of law. This may be a common or colloquial definition. It is what I mean when I write "legally innocent".

First of all no one disputes that innocent's definition includes not guilty. The question is whether a court verdict of "not guilty/proven" means innocent and it doesn't.

I don't find a talk show host's characterization interesting. I'm sure a 15 minutes discussion of what kind of acquittal would have gotten him a much bigger share :rolleyes:

Another definition, which may be what Black's dictionary is using, is that "innocent" means "absolutely innocent" - that is, if we knew all the facts, even beyond those entered into evidence - as God would know, for example - then we would know for sure whether or not that person had committed or not committed the crime. The trier of fact, whether judge or jury, is not perfect and can render a wrongful "not guilty" just as it can render a wrongful "guilty" verdict.

Legally a finding of not guilty/proven is not innocent. I provided numerous legal definitions (yes in English) and none of them used the word innocent.

Another possibility which Black's may be pointing at is that the "not guilty" finding could be the result of, for example, a finding that police added false incriminating evidence to the case, and this was detected in the trial, and the trier (judge or jury) thus delivered a "not guilty" verdict, even though possibly the defendant was indeed factually guilty, or that some violation of procedural law led to the finding of "not guilty".

No Black is making the case clear that NO not guilty/proven verdict means innocent. Now in Italy they do have a acquittal that states the defendant is innocent. We don't.

Now, in my opinion, the evidence - which is essentially a lack of any reliable or credible evidence of guilt, and to a lesser degree the evidence that Raffaele and Amanda were, as they stated when not under police pressure, together at his apartment throughout the night (which seems reasonable for a couple in a relationship), indicates that they are "not guilty" = "legally innocent" and "actually innocent" insofar as humans can determine.

The term "actually innocent" refers specifically to one convicted and then providing new evidence so strong that no juror could have voted guilt in his original trial. I don't believe there is a verdict of "legally innocent"

As for the question of the meaning of CPP Article 530.2 compared to 530.1, in my opinion it means something quite different than what either Grinder or even LondonJohn propose.

I believe CPP Article 530.1 means that the judge, in a miraculous sense, knows, or is informed by the Chief Inquisitor (historically) or by an investigating judge or prosecutor (in more recent times) that the accused should be acquitted. That is how acquittals occurred in the inquisitorial system, IIUC.

Well clearly the judges can decide no crime occurred such as a rape or a car theft where the defendant was given the keys and innocently drove it. I don't know but would think at trials of the first instance that verdict could be made because the prosecution's case extremely weak or the defense provided an alibi with absolute proof such a video from a cash machine miles from the crime scene at the time of the crime.

We had a case here (David Na) in which he was accused of punching women and stabbing a military hero that had come to the damsels aid but in court independent witnesses came forward and testified the girls had attacked Na and he was walking away when the GI Joe chased him and was slamming his head against a car when Na stabbed him. The court not only ruled "not guilty" but went the extra mile and declared he acted in self defense and was entitled to compensation for his legal expenses. He might have received a para one in Italy although I think para 3 or 4 is for self defense.
 
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