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Bullish on Bernie: The Bernie Sanders 2016 Thread II

There's nothing anti science about preferring renewable energy to nuclear power. As I said above, if the same amount of subsidies as the nuclear industry receives had been invested in renewable energy sources, the technologies would be far more advanced by now, and they are still a preferable road to take than the uneconomical nuclear behemoth with its legacy of radioactive waste which has no viable storage solution that can be trusted to remain safe for thousands of years.


There is actually a ton of anti-science used to support that preference. Not all of it is, it isn't intrinsic to it, but in my experience most all people who are anti-nuclear energy deny some of the science or get it extremely wrong. Even you get it wrong here; there are viable storage and mitigation solutions from the science end of it. It is the economic end that isn't there yet.

While I like renewables, I like nuclear as well because it will get us off of coal and gasoline much much faster, which is important for climate issues. I don't agree with your 'what if' that renewables would be more viable with earlier subsidies but if you have evidence that they would be, by all means..

I'm still going to vote for Bernie, but I strongly disagree with him here.
 
As someone who lives in Wisconsin and voted Sanders, I'd like to point out that while the Sanders win was nice, overall the election wasn't a win for progressives.

Those same people who voted for Sanders didn't also vote in sufficient number for Kloppenburg for Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice. Instead corrupt crony Bradly won the spot, making the court conservative and locking in all branches of government for the conservatives. The judicial branch has been about the only thing that has slowed the degradation of the state, and now they have full reign to completely **** up the state.

If the democrats can't get their act together and understand that state elections are just as important, if not more so than Presidential ones, we're screwed.

The problem wasn't Sanders, it was a combination of voter suppression and the DNC leadership deciding that registration and voter ID drives were counter productive to their preferred candidate's interests during the primaries.
 
Bernie crosses the line and makes an attack he'll have trouble defending if Hillary is the nominee. So far, neither of these two has said anything real damaging about each other. The worst was some finger wagging from Hilary about tone and fossil fuel donations from people in the industry, and the usual Clinton yarn about Wall Street only attacking her. Yawn. But today, Sanders said (for a variety of reasons), Hillary is not qualified to be president.

That begs the question: if she gets the nomination, how can he support someone who he thinks is not qualified to be president?
 
Bernie crosses the line and makes an attack he'll have trouble defending if Hillary is the nominee. So far, neither of these two has said anything real damaging about each other. The worst was some finger wagging from Hilary about tone and fossil fuel donations from people in the industry, and the usual Clinton yarn about Wall Street only attacking her. Yawn. But today, Sanders said (for a variety of reasons), Hillary is not qualified to be president.

That begs the question: if she gets the nomination, how can he support someone who he thinks is not qualified to be president?
"I don't think that you are qualified if you get 15 million dollars from Wall Street through your Super PAC," said Sanders. "I don't think you are qualified if you have voted for the disastrous war in Iraq. I don't think you are qualified if you've supported virtually every disastrous trade agreement, which has cost us millions of decent paying jobs."

You forgot to put the bow in your gift to Trump there, Bernie.
 
There's nothing anti-science about the preference, and in the future renewables may be objectively better. But there's nothing rational about the rejection of nuclear as an alternative.

Storage of waste for thousands of years. Why are you so certain that civilisation as we know it is going to survive that long, in the face of disruptive climate change, for instance, let alone madmen with powerful weapons, like Putin and Assad and the psychopaths indulging themselves with so-called islamic state (not to mention your own tea-party taliban)? You all blithely assume that ignorant descendants will have the continuity to maintain storage facilities.

On top of that, it takes years to build nuclear power plants and all the infrastructure for them, whereas we need immediate response to the developing climate crisis. It would be far quicker to build tidal lagoons, wave power installations, and solar farms in deserts etc, which could come on-stream pretty quickly and start contributing much more quickly.


Since we have no idea how far these technologies can or will go, this is pure speculation. It might very well be that renewables _never_ fill our energy needs, and that we _need_ nuclear and other such technologies to do so.

"pure" speculation!? Rubbish!

Bernie's anti-nuclear position is anti-science. So is yours.

This bald statement smacks of an ideological arrogance. I wonder if you have any knowledge at all, since this is all you have to say.


There is actually a ton of anti-science used to support that preference. Not all of it is, it isn't intrinsic to it, but in my experience most all people who are anti-nuclear energy deny some of the science or get it extremely wrong. Even you get it wrong here; there are viable storage and mitigation solutions from the science end of it. It is the economic end that isn't there yet.

What does it matter if some people are ignorant, when as you say those people's arguments are not intrinsic to the rest of the problems with nuclear power, which are real? Your statement of viability in storage ignores the social dimensions as I described above. And since the economic viability is not and never will be sound, the demand for the technology is the ideological blindness in this argument, from where I stand.

It seems that the issues surrounding the running of nuclear power plants are left out of the calculations by proponents of nuclear technology, such as mining and transportation of fuel, along with storage of waste and decommissioning of spent plants and subsequent replacement of plants, all of which demand huge commitment of time and resources. Since China has woken up to their pollution problem and started making solar panels the price has come right down, and every house could and should be tiled with solar panels, a viable solution which could be installed pretty swiftly starting now, and should receive the subsidies instead of the pie in the sky nuclear solution, which will take decades to install.

Climate change is in the nature of an international emergency which demands the kind of response appropriate to putting a nation on a war footing. Tidal lagoons can produce electricity reliably and in large quantities for industry etc. There's nothing speculative in that.


While I like renewables, I like nuclear as well because it will get us off of coal and gasoline much much faster, which is important for climate issues. I don't agree with your 'what if' that renewables would be more viable with earlier subsidies but if you have evidence that they would be, by all means..

I'm still going to vote for Bernie, but I strongly disagree with him here.


The suggestion that building nuclear plants is going to be a swift thing ignores the proven slowness of such builds up until now. It's going to take decades to build and commission enough plants. That's too late. Now is the time to invest that effort and manpower and money in installing a working infrastructure of various renewable technologies. It's viable now, and can only improve with investment of a serious intention to develop it.

The facile dismissal of anti-nuclear objections is no more a sound position than a facile dismissal of socialism in general.
 
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Storage of waste for thousands of years. Why are you so certain that civilisation as we know it is going to survive that long, in the face of disruptive climate change, for instance, let alone madmen with powerful weapons, like Putin and Assad and the psychopaths indulging themselves with so-called islamic state (not to mention your own tea-party taliban)? You all blithely assume that ignorant descendants will have the continuity to maintain storage facilities.

That sounds more hysterical than rational. First of all I didn't say anythign about storage so your question and assumption about what I think are entirely your own concoction. Second of all the storage problem is more political than anything else. This isn't like Space 1999 where the stockpiles can explode and change our orbit.

On top of that, it takes years to build nuclear power plants and all the infrastructure for them

Yes, that is a problem, mostly because we should've started building them back in the 80s but hippies were too scared of mutating into monsters to allow us to do that.

"pure" speculation!? Rubbish!

What are you talking about? Do you know for a fact that solar panels can get beyond a certain level of efficiency, for example? Don't tell me you know those things. Nobody does. We try to improve these techs but for now it's unknown how far they'll go, so don't tell me that you're not speculating.
 
Speaking of Bernie Sanders - did anyone catch his speech from 2011 regarding the Panamanian trade deal?

Nailed it. Verbatim.

Feel the BERN!
 
Speaking of Bernie Sanders - did anyone catch his speech from 2011 regarding the Panamanian trade deal?

Nailed it. Verbatim.

Feel the BERN!
I'm unable to form an opinion without knowing what Sanders said.

Pardon me for using your post to make a broader point, but I'm sick and tired [imagine Sling & Arrows favorite Hillary spam picture here] of posters characterizing what a candidate said, without quoting the actual words. Even more insidious/pervasive is when a link is provided to a commentator characterizing what the candidate said, all hail Kevin Bacon.
 
I'm planning to fight for nuclear after we win.

Why not fight for it now? Take it up with your fellow Bernie supporters. It's no good if Bernie wins on a platform of dismantling nuclear energy. He'll be held to that.
 
Storage of waste for thousands of years. Why are you so certain that civilisation as we know it is going to survive that long, in the face of disruptive climate change, for instance, let alone madmen with powerful weapons, like Putin and Assad and the psychopaths indulging themselves with so-called islamic state (not to mention your own tea-party taliban)? You all blithely assume that ignorant descendants will have the continuity to maintain storage facilities.

On top of that, it takes years to build nuclear power plants and all the infrastructure for them, whereas we need immediate response to the developing climate crisis. It would be far quicker to build tidal lagoons, wave power installations, and solar farms in deserts etc, which could come on-stream pretty quickly and start contributing much more quickly.




"pure" speculation!? Rubbish!



This bald statement smacks of an ideological arrogance. I wonder if you have any knowledge at all, since this is all you have to say.




What does it matter if some people are ignorant, when as you say those people's arguments are not intrinsic to the rest of the problems with nuclear power, which are real? Your statement of viability in storage ignores the social dimensions as I described above. And since the economic viability is not and never will be sound, the demand for the technology is the ideological blindness in this argument, from where I stand.

It seems that the issues surrounding the running of nuclear power plants are left out of the calculations by proponents of nuclear technology, such as mining and transportation of fuel, along with storage of waste and decommissioning of spent plants and subsequent replacement of plants, all of which demand huge commitment of time and resources. Since China has woken up to their pollution problem and started making solar panels the price has come right down, and every house could and should be tiled with solar panels, a viable solution which could be installed pretty swiftly starting now, and should receive the subsidies instead of the pie in the sky nuclear solution, which will take decades to install.

Climate change is in the nature of an international emergency which demands the kind of response appropriate to putting a nation on a war footing. Tidal lagoons can produce electricity reliably and in large quantities for industry etc. There's nothing speculative in that.





The suggestion that building nuclear plants is going to be a swift thing ignores the proven slowness of such builds up until now. It's going to take decades to build and commission enough plants. That's too late. Now is the time to invest that effort and manpower and money in installing a working infrastructure of various renewable technologies. It's viable now, and can only improve with investment of a serious intention to develop it.

The facile dismissal of anti-nuclear objections is no more a sound position than a facile dismissal of socialism in general.



This is probably better suited for one of the many threads on nuclear power. A few points though.

Mining for nuclear is dangerous, as opposed to mining for materials for solar panels and the storage tech which would make them viable which everyone knows is done by elves and blessed by fairies. Wait, no, that's not true. The production of 'renewables' isn't totally clean either.

Any political or environmental concern which is only viable with the total collapse of civilization is laughably down on the priority list for cost/benefit.

'It's not and will never be economically viable' is exactly what many say about solar, and it's just as wrong there as it is with nuclear waste mitigation.

It takes decades because of political opposition, not because of science or engineering concerns. It's still faster than anything else. It's still cleaner than anything else. Your speculation on using tides is unproven. Yes, it's speculation.

And the 'anti-science' matters because it's far and away the most cited and most useful for politicians to bang on.
 
I'm unable to form an opinion without knowing what Sanders said.

Pardon me for using your post to make a broader point, but I'm sick and tired [imagine Sling & Arrows favorite Hillary spam picture here] of posters characterizing what a candidate said, without quoting the actual words. Even more insidious/pervasive is when a link is provided to a commentator characterizing what the candidate said, all hail Kevin Bacon.

An unfortunate side effect of posting from a phone. Apologies.

 
Bernie crosses the line and makes an attack he'll have trouble defending if Hillary is the nominee. So far, neither of these two has said anything real damaging about each other. The worst was some finger wagging from Hilary about tone and fossil fuel donations from people in the industry, and the usual Clinton yarn about Wall Street only attacking her.


I'd hardly call taking someone to task for their demonstrated voting record and documented campaign financing "crossing the line".

If you think Sanders crossed a line and Clinton didn't, you really haven't been paying attention. In fact, Clinton has been trying hard to damage Sanders using distortions and flat out lies. She recently tried to blame Sandy Hook on Sanders, and was called on it, not just by Sanders supporters, but by her own.

Hillary Clinton Using Sandy Hook Victims as Political Props Just Backfired Completely

In a Twitter message she tried to lay the Sandy Hook shooting at Sanders feet, and her own supporters fire back and tell her how badly she screwed up. A few switched sides. Screencaps of the actual messages are at the link.

Excerpt:

A Facebook post from the relative of a Sandy Hook victim was perhaps most heartbreaking of all. It featured a picture of 6-year-old Allison Wyatt, one of the 20 children killed at Sandy Hook, with a plea for Clinton to stop bringing up the horrific shooting to smear her opponent. Other Twitter users agreed that Clinton’s Sandy Hook attack was one step too far:

(Twitter screencaps)

Other Twitter users pointed out the hypocrisy of Clinton’s outspoken pro-gun control stance, as Clinton has a long record of selling hundreds of billions of dollars worth of American weapons to repressive Middle Eastern regimes. One Iraqi Twitter user brought up a quote from Clinton’s private server emails, in which the Secretary of State referred to war-torn Iraq as a “business opportunity” for corporate interests.


Like her false claim that the gun problem in New York is because of guns coming from Vermont, which she also tried to blame Bernie for. And she was called out on that by her own superdelegate supporters[/url]. Not only is Vermont responsible for less than 1% of the firearms in New York; but according to the FBI report, the largest source of guns on New York streets is from the Southern states, Virginia and Georgia, who are Clinton's biggest support base. Something I'm surprised the Sanders campaign hasn't brought up.

Pro-Clinton Superdelegate Says Hillary’s Latest Gun Claim Is Completely Wrong

Excerpt:
Federal statistics undermine Clinton’s claim. Data collected by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives show that of the guns recovered by police in New York, less than one percent came from Vermont.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2016/04/06/p...laim-is-completely-wrong-video/#ixzz459KnZzKT


Hillary’s Latest Gun Attack On Bernie Is Not Backed Up By Federal Data

Excerpt:
But data compiled by the federal government shows that less than one percent of the guns recovered in New York were initially purchased in Vermont, which borders the Empire State on the northeast.
Special: Dr. Oz Shocked After Barb Walters Reveals Her Anti-Wrinkle Secret

In 2014, out of 7,686 firearms recovered and traced in New York, only 55 were first purchased in Vermont, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

That’s compared to 371 that came from Pennsylvania, 395 that were sourced to Virginia, and 386 from Georgia, government data shows.

In 2013, 61 of the 8,539 guns recovered and traced in New York came from Vermont. That’s compared to 423 that came from Virginia.

A New York Times investigation published last year also found that most of the guns recovered in New York were purchased in southern states. They’re brought to New York via I-95, which has been dubbed “The Iron Pipeline.”

Of course, she's not the only one who has been caught trying to smear Sanders. New York Daily News and CNN reporters were called out by the New York Times and The Accountability Project for taking quotes out of context to try and make Bernie look bad. Naturally, Hillary continues to use the distorted quotes as part of her increasingly vicious campaign.


CNN Just Got Called Out for Manipulating Bernie Sanders’ NY Daily News Interview

Excerpt:
The so-called “bad interview” is being talked about so much that it’s now even trending on Facebook.

(screenshot)

Nomiki Konst, among others, struck back fiercely against this false narrative today.

Konst, a communications strategist and founder of investigative news organization The Accountability Project, unloaded on a hapless CNN anchor who tried to use the same 4-5 sentence exchange from the tabloid which, when taken out of context, make Sanders seem confused about how to break up the big banks. (The full transcript of the interview can be found here.)

The anchor showed the graphic with the exchange, then said blithely, “Shouldn’t Sanders know that?”

Konst fired back.

“Well actually, you know, there’s great fact checking done on this in the New York Times, which I hold as a higher standard of a paper… I think most New Yorkers hold the Times a little bit higher than the Daily News and New York Post. But they fact checked this and they basically said that he was right on this. You know the point if you read the entire transcript, which is very long, took about 45 minutes to read. He went into detail about how the determination of how to break up the big banks lies within Congress or the president, and the president gives authority to the Fed.

The problem is that we take, as we do in the media, take little bits out of context and don’t show the full picture. And to be clear, to be even more fair, Bernie Sanders is the only Senator who brought this up in Congress… And you know what? The Daily News didn’t talk about that, but the New York Times did.”
 
I've got a Berntard on Facebook right now who's still sticking with the "Iowa was a tie" nonsense, then doubling down on "even if Hillary won, it's only because she won 6 straight coin tosses". Jesus christ these people are idiots!
 
I've got a Berntard on Facebook right now who's still sticking with the "Iowa was a tie" nonsense, then doubling down on "even if Hillary won, it's only because she won 6 straight coin tosses". Jesus christ these people are idiots!

Maybe just uninformed, though you might be using these words as synonyms, and I wouldn't blame you.
 
Maybe just uninformed, though you might be using these words as synonyms, and I wouldn't blame you.

When someone is willfully uninformed, then the terms are interchangeable. :)

This is a result of getting your "news" from Twitter and Reddit instead of actually reading a newspaper.
 

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