Proof of Immortality II

Status
Not open for further replies.
Giordano said:
By no means stupid- most of you are far more intelligent than I am. But "you all" seem willing to play with Jabba nonetheless, and he seems to enjoy the interaction. So why should he quit? Particularly when he is the person who is writing the script and stage manager.
Click to expand...

This is, of course, perfectly true.

If he were simply your average Troll he'd have got bored years ago.
However, judging by his mission-goals stated elsewhere, he has pretty much admitted that he thinks he can .... "persuade" ... people here to concede that his magic-floaty-man is a real thing, by using what he thinks are some kind of special U.S. Crime Drama style Court-Room Tactics.

Of course he can not do so because this is real life, not Columbo.
So his blatant dishonesty must be mentioned for the record... Your Honour.
 
Agatha said:
...I think you are shifting the burden of proof, but in order not to get bogged down in a discussion of BoP, my evidence that 'one finite life' is the most likely explanation is as follows:
People are born. Each person born is not a reincarnation of another, previously dead person - they have no memories (outside some strange woo ideas) that belonged to anyone else.
People die. They are either cremated or they rot in the ground, and the life that they had is ended. Some people believe in an afterlife (eg heaven) but no evidence for such has been provided...
Click to expand...
Agatha,

- I too am getting to sub-issues as quickly as possible...

- Can you be sure that we would have memories of previous lifetimes? We don't remember most of our dreams; under hypnosis, we can be made to lose memory of what happened while under; and then, there's amnesia. If simple brain damage can cause amnesia, physical death ought to cause it also.
 
Jabba said:
Agatha,

- I too am getting to sub-issues as quickly as possible...

- Can you be sure that we would have memories of previous lifetimes? We don't remember most of our dreams; under hypnosis, we can be made to lose memory of what happened while under; and then, there's amnesia. If simple brain damage can cause amnesia, physical death ought to cause it also.
Click to expand...

Just assuming for a moment that what you are saying is true and that you aren't trying to reverse the burden of proof: in your scenario, there isn't any effective difference between no reincarnation and reincarnation which leaves behind no memory, no evidence of its existence.
 
Jabba said:
Agatha,

- I too am getting to sub-issues as quickly as possible...

- Can you be sure that we would have memories of previous lifetimes?
Click to expand...
Is it your contention that a person is reincarnated with no memory of their former selves, then? What connects them with the person that they were, if they share no memory, no DNA and no personality traits - what makes you think that those two consciousnesses are one?

Jabba said:
We don't remember most of our dreams;
Click to expand...
Speak for yourself - I remember most of my dreams, at least one per night, every single night.

Jabba said:
under hypnosis, we can be made to lose memory of what happened while under;
Click to expand...
Evidence?

Jabba said:
and then, there's amnesia. If simple brain damage can cause amnesia, physical death ought to cause it also.
Click to expand...
Unevidenced assertion, but allowing this to be true, in what sense, then, can the new consciousness be said to be a repeat of any former consciousness, if it shares no memories or knowledge with the former one?
 
Last edited:
Mojo said:
Jabba,
- how did you calculate the probability of ~[one finite life] to be 0.01?
Click to expand...

He also needs to let us know what characteristic would distinguish "one finite life" from its complement. So far, they do not appear to be distinguishable, and in that case, they are the same.
 
I haven't followed this thread up until now, but I imagine this has been said half a hundred times already.

Prospective odds of a particular individual being born: meaningless or incalculable

Retrospective odds of a particular individual having been born: 1.00

[/thread], right?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Agatha said:
Is it your contention that a person is reincarnated with no memory of their former selves, then? What connects them with the person that they were, if they share no memory, no DNA and no personality traits - what makes you think that those two consciousnesses are one?...
Click to expand...
Agatha,

- i just had carpal tunnel surgery, so im going to skip caps and things.

- thats an interesting question -- but it just goes to show how difficult it is to communicate about these ideas...
- it isn't a question of what would make me think that those two consciousnesses are one; its a question of could a particular awareness of self come back in a new body but with no memory of the old body, or old self/ that probably wont communicate either -- but maybe, itll help.
 
Jabba said:
Agatha,

- i just had carpal tunnel surgery, so im going to skip caps and things.

- thats an interesting question -- but it just goes to show how difficult it is to communicate about these ideas...
- it isn't a question of what would make me think that those two consciousnesses are one; its a question of could a particular awareness of self come back in a new body but with no memory of the old body, or old self/ that probably wont communicate either -- but maybe, itll help.
Click to expand...
Not really help, no. What does "a particular awareness of self" mean?
 
Jabba said:
Agatha,

- i just had carpal tunnel surgery, so im going to skip caps and things.

- thats an interesting question -- but it just goes to show how difficult it is to communicate about these ideas...
- it isn't a question of what would make me think that those two consciousnesses are one; its a question of could a particular awareness of self come back in a new body but with no memory of the old body, or old self/ that probably wont communicate either -- but maybe, itll help.
Click to expand...

Did you have something to communicate by using words? Granted, when you use them without any definition it may seem fun, but so is passing wind. I guess that's harder to type.
 
ferd burfle said:
I haven't followed this thread up until now, but I imagine this has been said half a hundred times already.

Prospective odds of a particular individual being born: meaningless or incalculable

Retrospective odds of a particular individual having been born: 1.00

[/thread], right?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Been there, done that. It just gets ignored.
 
Jabba said:
Agatha,
- Can you be sure that we would have memories of previous lifetimes? We don't remember most of our dreams...
Click to expand...
Agatha said:
... Speak for yourself - I remember most of my dreams, at least one per night, every single night...
Click to expand...

- From http://www.asdreams.org/subidxeduq_and_a.htm.

Laboratory studies have shown that we experience our most vivid dreams during a type of sleep called Rapid Eye Movement (REM) sleep. During REM sleep the brain is very active, the eyes move back and forth rapidly under the lids, and the large muscles of the body are relaxed. REM sleep occurs every 90 - 100 minutes, 3 to 4 times a night, and lasts longer as the night progresses. The final REM period may last as long as 45 minutes. Less vivid dreams occur at other times during the night.
 
Jabba said:
Agatha,

- i just had carpal tunnel surgery, so im going to skip caps and things.

- thats an interesting question -- but it just goes to show how difficult it is to communicate about these ideas...
- it isn't a question of what would make me think that those two consciousnesses are one; its a question of could a particular awareness of self come back in a new body but with no memory of the old body, or old self/
Click to expand...

OK, what would make you think those two particular awarenesses of self are one?
 
Jabba said:
Agatha,

- i just had carpal tunnel surgery, so im going to skip caps and things.

- thats an interesting question -- but it just goes to show how difficult it is to communicate about these ideas...
- it isn't a question of what would make me think that those two consciousnesses are one; its a question of could a particular awareness of self come back in a new body but with no memory of the old body, or old self/ that probably wont communicate either -- but maybe, itll help.
Click to expand...

Jabba said:
- From http://www.asdreams.org/subidxeduq_and_a.htm.

Laboratory studies have shown that we experience our most vivid dreams during a type of sleep called Rapid Eye Movement (REM) sleep. During REM sleep the brain is very active, the eyes move back and forth rapidly under the lids, and the large muscles of the body are relaxed. REM sleep occurs every 90 - 100 minutes, 3 to 4 times a night, and lasts longer as the night progresses. The final REM period may last as long as 45 minutes. Less vivid dreams occur at other times during the night.
Click to expand...


Jabba,
- how did you calculate the probability of ~[one finite life] to be 0.01?
 
Jabba said:
- From http://www.asdreams.org/subidxeduq_and_a.htm.

Laboratory studies have shown that we experience our most vivid dreams during a type of sleep called Rapid Eye Movement (REM) sleep. During REM sleep the brain is very active, the eyes move back and forth rapidly under the lids, and the large muscles of the body are relaxed. REM sleep occurs every 90 - 100 minutes, 3 to 4 times a night, and lasts longer as the night progresses. The final REM period may last as long as 45 minutes. Less vivid dreams occur at other times during the night.
Click to expand...

Of course, the above responding quote doesn't answer anything in either of the posts it references. To do so would be a wild departure from normal practice....
 
How did you calculate the probability of ~[one finite life] to be 0.01?

What does "a particular awareness of self" mean?

I am at a loss to explain why you are linking to stuff about REM sleep (which is basic knowledge and not unknown to me). None of it refutes that I remember most of my dreams, at least one a night, every night. Nor does it explain why you claimed that 'we' don't remember most of our dreams, nor what dreaming has to do with immortality.
 
Agatha said:
... Nor does it explain why you claimed that 'we' don't remember most of our dreams, nor what dreaming has to do with immortality.
Click to expand...

Oh OH OH, I know!

If we forget dreams, we can forget past lives. Therefore you have had past lives but you just don't remember, therefore..........immortality!
 
Agatha said:
I am at a loss to explain why you are linking to stuff about REM sleep (which is basic knowledge and not unknown to me).
Click to expand...


It's because he doesn't want to explain how he calculated the probability of ~[one finite life] to be 0.01.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom