Creationist argument about DNA and information

[JeanTate]

Annnoid, I am saying it is possible to conceive of (i.e. imagine) a universe which is governed by an intelligent agency.

You seem to be conflating two things.

So far, only humans, or systems built by humans can propose rules of system-beaviourthat explain observations. That is not the same as saying that the behaviour of the system needs an intelligence to prescribe it as opposed to describe it.



Arguing otherwise is "undergraduate 'shadows in the cave' pot-fuelled cod-philosophy"

I'm glad to see that I am not the only one who finds annnnoid's posts, um, confusing, illogical, full of poorly-worded ideas, and so on (OK, it seems that quite a few others too).

And yes, the parts that I do, vaguely, grasp seem very much like late night, drug-fueled, undergrad "philosophizing".

 

[jimbob]

I'm glad to see that I am not the only one who finds annnnoid's posts, um, confusing, illogical, full of poorly-worded ideas, and so on (OK, it seems that quite a few others too).

And yes, the parts that I do, vaguely, grasp seem very much like late night, drug-fueled, undergrad "philosophizing".

I swear I had seen someone use a very similar phrase in this thread - but can't find it now.

But, yes I remember undergraduate life - although TBH, most of those types of conversation which I participated in were fuelled by beer or wine as opposed to other drugs.

I have a suspicion that turingtest might also agree... although I hadn't thought about Wayne's World for a long time (maybe I should introduce my kids to it, as they like that sort of film).

 

[fagin]

1. There is no Flaw.
2. There is no Fallacy.

My Argument is GOD; Intelligent Agency is the Necessary Condition for the Existence of Life and The Universe.

blah blah....



Listen Closely: To SUPPORT "your" position of Nature/Natural Law GOD as 'The Cause' for LIFE..... "YOU" must provide EVIDENCE for GOD @ a Minimum!! I'm only asking for a single "ANYTHING[/U] from, for goodness sakes.





My goodness gracious. How on Earth can I show you evidence of the Absence of Something??

Isn't the Absence of " IT "....The Evidence of ABSENCE !!!
Judge: Present your Case....

Not Daniel: God does Not Exist!!
Daniel: Show evidence!!
Not Daniel: God dos Not Exist!! The Prosecution Rests.

Judge: Daniel, show evidence to refute Not Daniel.

Daniel: It's an Argument from Ignorance.

Judge: rotflol. Bailiff!!!!



Blah blah etc CApitalish

regards

Isn't this fun?....

 

[JeanTate]

@annnnoid: have you had a paper you wrote published in a relevant peer-reviewed journal, in any field of science?

Have you done work - in a lab, in the field, at an observatory, etc (doing experiments, making observations) - which resulted in such a publication?

Did you complete a PhD, or Masters, in any field of science?

I ask, in part, because you seem unfamiliar with what science actually is.

You seem to like characterizing what I write, in part, as too pedantic. Part of the reason why I think you are unfamiliar with science is that a key aspect may be described as systematic pedantry ... teasing out what look like trivial differences, to produce profound new understanding, rigorously following through chains of logic and Gedankenexperiments (as Einstein did), working on really nailing down definitions, and so on.

And it's kinda ironic that you yourself seem so certain of the validity of what you write, so convinced of the robustness of your logic, that you are blind to just how, um, sloppy it comes across to others. Especially those who have direct experience in actually doing science.

 

[Daniel]

Which one? Why that one when there are so many to choose from?

Well we know that the Universe had a Beginning see (1LOT/2LOT); Therefore, The CREATOR must be Outside of and not a Product of it.

List the 'gods', that by their precepts, have laid claim to creating the universe...?
And we'll evaluate each based on known Scientific Laws.

regards

 

[JeanTate]

I swear I had seen someone use a very similar phrase in this thread - but can't find it now.

But, yes I remember undergraduate life - although TBH, most of those types of conversation which I participated in were fuelled by beer or wine as opposed to other drugs.

I have a suspicion that turingtest might also agree... although I hadn't thought about Wayne's World for a long time (maybe I should introduce my kids to it, as they like that sort of film).

I too recall having read at least one such.

And, to me, alcohol - of the ethyl kind - is just as much a drug as the pill some pop to keep sharp during an all-nighter, or what's in the many cups of strong coffee.

 

[Daniel]

DNA is not a book.

No, but it contains Boatloads of Information...

"There is enough storage capacity in the DNA of a single lily seed or a single salamander sperm to store the Encyclopædia Britannica 60 times over. Some species of the unjustly called ‘primitive’ amoebas have as much information in their DNA as 1,000 Encyclopædia Britannicas"
Richard Dawkins; The Blind Watchmaker, p. 116

A teaspoon of DNA contains enough Information to stack a pile of books from here to the moon and back 500 times over.

Why do you keep trying to compare a series of chemical reactions to a tool created by humans?

1. Well because both contain "INFORMATION" and display Functional Sequence/Specified Complexity.

2. Like what Chemical Reactions for instance?

List the Chemical Reaction/Formula for TRUTH....?
How bout the Chemical Reaction for solving 1 + 1 = 2 ? What's the Reaction for the thought of an African Elephant? How does the Reaction/Formula differ from that thought to another African Elephant with Pink Ears and a Purple Striped Trunk ?


And where'd you get DNA?? Start here...

1. Functional DNA/RNA/Proteins NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.
It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE.
That's just the Hardware!

To refute, Please show a Functional 30 mer- RNA or Protein (most are 250 AA or larger) that formed spontaneously "Outside" a Cell/Living Organism, CITE SOURCE! The smallest "Functional" DNA (Genome) is a little over 100,000 Nucleotides... so that ain't happenin !

Conclusion from the Grand Poobah's of OOL Research...

"We conclude that the direct synthesis of the nucleosides or nucleotides from prebiotic precursors in reasonable yield and unaccompanied by larger amounts of related molecules could not be achieved by presently known chemical reactions."
Gerald F. Joyce, and Leslie E. Orgel, "Prospects for Understanding the Origin of the RNA World," p. 18 The RNA World, R.F. Gesteland and J.F. Atkins, eds. Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press, 1993.

Then the WOOLLY Mammoth in the Room...

2. How Did Stupid Atoms Write Their Own Software....? In other words, show how Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules can Author Technical Instruction Manuals/Blueprints...?


regards

 

[jimbob]

I too recall having read at least one such.

And, to me, alcohol - of the ethyl kind - is just as much a drug as the pill some pop to keep sharp during an all-nighter, or what's in the many cups of strong coffee.

Indeed, it's just that the social situation is slightly different...

 

[tsig]

Why...cause you say so!

Go pick up your physics book. Now tell me any possible way that either the book or its contents could have been created by something that does not possess intelligence.

Someday you may understand that if you make a claim without any kind of an argument to back it up your claim is worthless.

Since humans write books > god?

 

[turingtest]

I swear I had seen someone use a very similar phrase in this thread - but can't find it now.

But, yes I remember undergraduate life - although TBH, most of those types of conversation which I participated in were fuelled by beer or wine as opposed to other drugs.

I have a suspicion that turingtest might also agree... although I hadn't thought about Wayne's World for a long time (maybe I should introduce my kids to it, as they like that sort of film).

Very much so- in fact...

My affinity was then more for the bud; nowadays, the strongest thing I indulge in is coffee, though I cling to the Pink Floyd.

 

[Perpetual Student]

One does not need to go as far as DNA to see natural structure within the universe, structure which provides information. Something as pervasive and basic in our world as the carbon atom provides a wealth of information. C₁₂ has six protons, six neutrons, two electrons in its inner shell and 4 valence electrons in its outer shell. This representes a wealth of information all provided by the known Quantum Mechanical properties of protons, neutrons and electrons.
No intellect is required to design the carbon atom.

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

Well we know that the Universe had a Beginning see (1LOT/2LOT); Therefore, The CREATOR must be Outside of and not a Product of it.

List the 'gods', that by their precepts, have laid claim to creating the universe...?
And we'll evaluate each based on known Scientific Laws.

regards

I hope you're not busy for about six months:

Creation from chaos[edit]
Cheonjiwang Bonpuri (a Korean creation myth)
Enûma Eliš (Babylonian creation myth)
Greek cosmogonical myth
Jamshid
Kumulipo
Leviathan (Book of Job 38-41 creation myth)
Mandé creation myth
Pangu
Raven in Creation
Serer creation myth
Sumerian creation myth
Tungusic creation myth
Unkulunkulu
Väinämöinen
Viracocha
Earth diver[edit]
Ainu creation myth
Cherokee creation myth
Väinämöinen
Yoruba creation myth
Emergence[edit]
Hopi creation myth
Maya creation of the world myth
Diné Bahaneʼ (Navajo)
Zuni creation myth
Ex nihilo (out of nothing)[edit]
Debate between sheep and grain
Barton cylinder
Ancient Egyptian creation myths
Genesis creation myth (Christianity, Islam and Judaism)
Kabezya-Mpungu
Māori myths
Mbombo
Ngai
Popol Vuh
Rangi and Papa
World Parent[edit]
Coatlicue
Enûma Eliš
Greek cosmogonical myth
Heliopolis creation myth
Hiranyagarbha creation myth
Kumulipo
Rangi and Papa
Völuspá
Regional[edit]
Africa[edit]
Ancient Egyptian creation myths
Fon creation myth
Kaang creation story (Bushmen)
Kintu myth (Bugandan)
Mandé creation myth
Mbombo (Kuba, Bakuba or Bushongo/Boshongo)
Ngai (Kamba, Kikuyu and Maasai )
Serer creation myth (cosmogony of the Serer people of Senegal, the Gambia and Mauritania)
Unkulunkulu (Zulu)
Yoruba creation
Americas[edit]
Mesoamerica[edit]
Coatlicue (Aztec)
Maya creation of the world myth
Popol Vuh (Quiché Mayan)
Mid North America[edit]
Anishinaabeg creation stories
Cherokee creation myth
Choctaw creation myth
Creek creation myth
Hopi creation myth
Kuterastan (Plains Apache)
Diné Bahaneʼ (Navajo)
Raven in Creation (Tlingit, Haida, and Tsimshian)
Zuni creation myth
South America[edit]
Legend of Trentren Vilu and Caicai Vilu (Chilean)
Viracocha (Incan)
Xolas (Chilean)
Asia[edit]
Central Asia[edit]
Mongolian creation myth
Tungusic creation myth
East Asia[edit]
Ainu creation myth (Japan)
Au Co (Vietnamese)
Chinese creation myth
Cheonjiwang Bonpuli (Korean)
Dangun creation myth (Korean)
Japanese creation myth
Nüwa (Chinese)
Pangu (Chinese)
Samseonghyeol legend (Korean)
Indian subcontinent[edit]
Ajativada
Buddhist cosmology
Folk Hindu creation myth
Hiranyagarbha creation (India)
Jainism and non-creationism (India)
Mimamsa eternalism (India)
Nyaya-Vaisheshika atomic theory (India)
Samkhya-yoga theory (India)
Europe[edit]
Greek cosmogonical myth
Pelasgian creation myth (Greek)
Väinämöinen (Finnish)
Völuspá (Norse)
Raelian creation myth (French)
Middle East[edit]
Debate between sheep and grain
Enûma Eliš (Babylonian)
Genesis creation myth (Hebrew)
Islamic creation myth (Arabic)
Mashya and Mashyana (Persian)
Sumerian creation myth
Leviathan (Book of Job 38-41 creation myth)
Pacific Islands/Oceanic[edit]
Kumulipo (Hawaiian)
Māori myths
Rangi and Papa (Māori)
Sureq Galigo (Buginese)

 

[jimbob]

Very much so- in fact...

My affinity was then more for the bud; nowadays, the strongest thing I indulge in is coffee, though I cling to the Pink Floyd.

That post is somewhat more concise than mine...

Worth posting the quote.

(Shrug) Discovered, by an intelligence that (finally) fathoms it (laws of physics, that is); that doesn't necessarily implicate an intelligence behind it.
Look, I get it (dude)- I'm an old 70's hippy, loved to stay up late at night with my buds and their buds (if you get what I mean), and blue-sky the hours away- "how do we know what we know, man? And if we don't even know that, how do we know anything? Wow, maybe we're just brains in a jar sharing dreams, stealing each other's sleep! Ever think of that, man????" And so forth...been there, done that, got the Pink Floyd t-shirt to show it. Some of us grow up, and finally we find out, yup...it really is just what it is, and probably not much more.

 

[turingtest]

That post is somewhat more concise than mine...

Worth posting the quote.

Daniel and annnnoid are both belaboring what is essentially the same attempted "gotcha!"- Daniel's is "you can't have creation without a Creator," while annnnoid is equivocating the word "law" between contexts to trumpet "you can't have (nature's) law without a law-giver!" Two creationist slogans that amount to the same crude circle...(damn it, now annnnoid's got me doing that meaningless ellipsis thing...)

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

I hope you're not busy for about six months:

Creation from chaos[edit]
Cheonjiwang Bonpuri (a Korean creation myth)
Enûma Eliš (Babylonian creation myth)
Greek cosmogonical myth
Jamshid
Kumulipo
Leviathan (Book of Job 38-41 creation myth)
Mandé creation myth
Pangu
Raven in Creation
Serer creation myth
Sumerian creation myth
Tungusic creation myth
Unkulunkulu
Väinämöinen
Viracocha
Earth diver[edit]
Ainu creation myth
Cherokee creation myth
Väinämöinen
Yoruba creation myth
Emergence[edit]
Hopi creation myth
Maya creation of the world myth
Diné Bahaneʼ (Navajo)
Zuni creation myth
Ex nihilo (out of nothing)[edit]
Debate between sheep and grain
Barton cylinder
Ancient Egyptian creation myths
Genesis creation myth (Christianity, Islam and Judaism)
Kabezya-Mpungu
Māori myths
Mbombo
Ngai
Popol Vuh
Rangi and Papa
World Parent[edit]
Coatlicue
Enûma Eliš
Greek cosmogonical myth
Heliopolis creation myth
Hiranyagarbha creation myth
Kumulipo
Rangi and Papa
Völuspá
Regional[edit]
Africa[edit]
Ancient Egyptian creation myths
Fon creation myth
Kaang creation story (Bushmen)
Kintu myth (Bugandan)
Mandé creation myth
Mbombo (Kuba, Bakuba or Bushongo/Boshongo)
Ngai (Kamba, Kikuyu and Maasai )
Serer creation myth (cosmogony of the Serer people of Senegal, the Gambia and Mauritania)
Unkulunkulu (Zulu)
Yoruba creation
Americas[edit]
Mesoamerica[edit]
Coatlicue (Aztec)
Maya creation of the world myth
Popol Vuh (Quiché Mayan)
Mid North America[edit]
Anishinaabeg creation stories
Cherokee creation myth
Choctaw creation myth
Creek creation myth
Hopi creation myth
Kuterastan (Plains Apache)
Diné Bahaneʼ (Navajo)
Raven in Creation (Tlingit, Haida, and Tsimshian)
Zuni creation myth
South America[edit]
Legend of Trentren Vilu and Caicai Vilu (Chilean)
Viracocha (Incan)
Xolas (Chilean)
Asia[edit]
Central Asia[edit]
Mongolian creation myth
Tungusic creation myth
East Asia[edit]
Ainu creation myth (Japan)
Au Co (Vietnamese)
Chinese creation myth
Cheonjiwang Bonpuli (Korean)
Dangun creation myth (Korean)
Japanese creation myth
Nüwa (Chinese)
Pangu (Chinese)
Samseonghyeol legend (Korean)
Indian subcontinent[edit]
Ajativada
Buddhist cosmology
Folk Hindu creation myth
Hiranyagarbha creation (India)
Jainism and non-creationism (India)
Mimamsa eternalism (India)
Nyaya-Vaisheshika atomic theory (India)
Samkhya-yoga theory (India)
Europe[edit]
Greek cosmogonical myth
Pelasgian creation myth (Greek)
Väinämöinen (Finnish)
Völuspá (Norse)
Raelian creation myth (French)
Middle East[edit]
Debate between sheep and grain
Enûma Eliš (Babylonian)
Genesis creation myth (Hebrew)
Islamic creation myth (Arabic)
Mashya and Mashyana (Persian)
Sumerian creation myth
Leviathan (Book of Job 38-41 creation myth)
Pacific Islands/Oceanic[edit]
Kumulipo (Hawaiian)
Māori myths
Rangi and Papa (Māori)
Sureq Galigo (Buginese)

I've studied a fair number of these and one consistent thing is they are mutually incompatible. The only time they kinda match up reveals migration patterns.

 

[JeanTate]

<snip>

Ignoring the hype, exaggeration, etc, this may be true today.

However, at least some of the "laws of mathematics" have been generated by ... machines!

IIRC, not only can a range of mathematical theorems be 'proof checked' by machines, but some can actually be generated by them.

And, again IIRC, there is actually work underway (at Google? IBM?) to develop a machine which can create hypotheses, check them against observational/experimental results, and 'publish' them.

Are these machines "intelligent agents"?

Y…E…S!

Are they ‘human beings?’

N…O!

All your argument does is further support the conclusion that ONLY intelligence has the capacity to generate such things as mathematics / laws.

Of course…there is the slight qualification when it comes to machine intelligence:

Who built the machines?

Indeed.

Machines are 'built' mostly by other machines, some with minimal human involvement. A fact that I'm sure you are well aware of.

But let's follow your logic (which I'll call annnnoidlogic, or anol for short) ...

Who built the machines which (in part) built those machines?

(repeat as many times as necessary)

Who built the humans who in part built the machines?

Who built the humans who built the humans who built the machines?

(repeat as many times as necessary)

Who built the Homo X, the ancestor of the Homo sap. individuals who built ...?

(you get the idea)

Who built LUCA?

(etc)

LUCA was not intelligent/did not have the thing which annnnoid calls "intelligence" (I'm sure you agree, right?).

Which leads to: All your argument does is further support the conclusion that ONLY NO intelligence has the capacity is needed to generate such things as mathematics / laws.

Universe 10ⁿ (n>8), annnnoid 0

 

[jimbob]

I hope you're not busy for about six months:

Creation from chaos[edit]
Cheonjiwang Bonpuri (a Korean creation myth)
Enûma Eliš (Babylonian creation myth)
Greek cosmogonical myth
Jamshid
Kumulipo
Leviathan (Book of Job 38-41 creation myth)
Mandé creation myth
Pangu
Raven in Creation
Serer creation myth
Sumerian creation myth
Tungusic creation myth
Unkulunkulu
Väinämöinen
Viracocha
Earth diver[edit]
Ainu creation myth
Cherokee creation myth
Väinämöinen
Yoruba creation myth
Emergence[edit]
Hopi creation myth
Maya creation of the world myth
Diné Bahaneʼ (Navajo)
Zuni creation myth
Ex nihilo (out of nothing)[edit]
Debate between sheep and grain
Barton cylinder
Ancient Egyptian creation myths
Genesis creation myth (Christianity, Islam and Judaism)
Kabezya-Mpungu
Māori myths
Mbombo
Ngai
Popol Vuh
Rangi and Papa
World Parent[edit]
Coatlicue
Enûma Eliš
Greek cosmogonical myth
Heliopolis creation myth
Hiranyagarbha creation myth
Kumulipo
Rangi and Papa
Völuspá
Regional[edit]
Africa[edit]
Ancient Egyptian creation myths
Fon creation myth
Kaang creation story (Bushmen)
Kintu myth (Bugandan)
Mandé creation myth
Mbombo (Kuba, Bakuba or Bushongo/Boshongo)
Ngai (Kamba, Kikuyu and Maasai )
Serer creation myth (cosmogony of the Serer people of Senegal, the Gambia and Mauritania)
Unkulunkulu (Zulu)
Yoruba creation
Americas[edit]
Mesoamerica[edit]
Coatlicue (Aztec)
Maya creation of the world myth
Popol Vuh (Quiché Mayan)
Mid North America[edit]
Anishinaabeg creation stories
Cherokee creation myth
Choctaw creation myth
Creek creation myth
Hopi creation myth
Kuterastan (Plains Apache)
Diné Bahaneʼ (Navajo)
Raven in Creation (Tlingit, Haida, and Tsimshian)
Zuni creation myth
South America[edit]
Legend of Trentren Vilu and Caicai Vilu (Chilean)
Viracocha (Incan)
Xolas (Chilean)
Asia[edit]
Central Asia[edit]
Mongolian creation myth
Tungusic creation myth
East Asia[edit]
Ainu creation myth (Japan)
Au Co (Vietnamese)
Chinese creation myth
Cheonjiwang Bonpuli (Korean)
Dangun creation myth (Korean)
Japanese creation myth
Nüwa (Chinese)
Pangu (Chinese)
Samseonghyeol legend (Korean)
Indian subcontinent[edit]
Ajativada
Buddhist cosmology
Folk Hindu creation myth
Hiranyagarbha creation (India)
Jainism and non-creationism (India)
Mimamsa eternalism (India)
Nyaya-Vaisheshika atomic theory (India)
Samkhya-yoga theory (India)
Europe[edit]
Greek cosmogonical myth
Pelasgian creation myth (Greek)
Väinämöinen (Finnish)
Völuspá (Norse)
Raelian creation myth (French)
Middle East[edit]
Debate between sheep and grain
Enûma Eliš (Babylonian)
Genesis creation myth (Hebrew)
Islamic creation myth (Arabic)
Mashya and Mashyana (Persian)
Sumerian creation myth
Leviathan (Book of Job 38-41 creation myth)
Pacific Islands/Oceanic[edit]
Kumulipo (Hawaiian)
Māori myths
Rangi and Papa (Māori)
Sureq Galigo (Buginese)

Stephen Oppenheimer's "Eden in the East - The drowned continent of Southeast Asia" is quite interesting on that. (review here) and his blurb here
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/books/eden_in_the_east.php



To me, the book reads like an attempt to start a discussion, rather than a claim for truth, but a lot of the stories make more sense in the form that is in SE Asian tribes than in the more well-known ones in the Bible - for example there being a tree of life and a tree of death, and the antagonist wanting man to eat from the tree of death for some selfish reason. Also that the serpent was supposed to have the secret of eternal youth by shedding its skin, which it got from eating from the tree of life... It makes more sense than the Genesis idea that it was essentially for shiggles.

His plots of sea level rise would suggest that many mesolithic communities (which would like coastal regions as they are great for hunter-gatherers) would have been subjected to catastrophic floods when the glacial dams broke and the sea level rose very quickly, followed by the coast retreating about a mile a year for a thousand years in some parts. One could see how flood myths might get fixed in the culture with that - we now know that Australian Aboriginals have stories of the coast from before the formation of the Great Barrier reef)

He lists various motifs of creation myths and a lot have ones that could be fairly simply explained as retellings of eyewitness stories of the immediate post-glacial events, some of which were pretty catastrophic.

 

[marplots]

Go pick up your physics book. Now tell me any possible way that either the book or its contents could have been created by something that does not possess intelligence.

I quite agree, but this isn't a very surprising or interesting thing. The surprising and interesting thing is how intelligence itself arose from something that doesn't possess intelligence.

 

[hecd2]

I swear I had seen someone use a very similar phrase in this thread - but can't find it now.


But, yes I remember undergraduate life - although TBH, most of those types of conversation which I participated in were fuelled by beer or wine as opposed to other drugs.

A while ago I posted: "Am I the only one here who finds this sort of undergraduate, 3am, pot-fuelled solipsistic, shadows-on-the-walls-of-the-cave intellectual meandering both boring and pointless?" is that what you remember?

 

[jimbob]

A while ago I posted: "Am I the only one here who finds this sort of undergraduate, 3am, pot-fuelled solipsistic, shadows-on-the-walls-of-the-cave intellectual meandering both boring and pointless?" is that what you remember?

Thanks, THAT was what I was attempting to reference...