Brexit: the referendum

Information Analyst said:
Except that for that Norway had to agree to other terms Brexiters reject, e.g. free movement, Eu regulations, etc.
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It was the assertion that a negotiated trade deal couldn't be done without tariffs that I was arguing against, not that the price might be high. It was the stupidity of an absolutist position which was the problem. I had no comment (nor have I at any stage) on what a likely deal would look like, simply that to preclude any possible outcome (as Lothian did) at this stage for a debating point is just wrong.
 
Mike, it is quite clear that I was talking about a situation where Britain leaves the EU, doesn't contribute to the EU budget and "takes back our borders" all key elements of the Brexit campaigners arguments. That is obvious from everything I have said in this thread and also from my quotes that you have cut to change the emphasis.
Why did you think the bits in red that you left out were not relevant?

"no developed country has tarrif free trade with Europe without the free movement of people"


There is practically no chance of UK businesses being able to trade with the EU and vice versa in the same way with the same costs as they do now post Brexit where we refuse free movement of people and where we refuse to pay for the privilege.
 
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Garrison said:
There's also the not so small matter of whether employees/consumers would actually benefit from the repeal of such regulations. I'm sure there's any number of employers who would like to see the back of the Working Time Directive but I doubt it would be popular with many of their employees.
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Well, quite. It does seem like a lot of the grumbling is about regulations that stop employers treating their staff like crap.
 
MikeG said:
See #502
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I stand by my claim that I don't think any deal can be done that removes tariffs, in a scenario where the UK refuses to pay into the European coffers and where it refuses to accept the free movement of people


Note: I have coloured in blue the bits you can ignore when you cut and paste later to misrepresent my position. Can I also suggest that you cut out the bit in red below when you want to argue that I think it would be easy to get a free trade deal.
Lothian said:
I bet we would have no problem negotiating a deal where we have free trade, open borders, give up our EU votes and we triple our financial contribution.
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3point14 said:
Well, that lends a huge amount of weight to the 'In' campaign for me.
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But they have George Galloway and Michael Gove as well!:eek:

I think Boris is on a win-win here. If leave wins he's going to be PM within a few weeks. If they lose he will blame 'Project Fear and the euroskeptics will make life impossible for Cameron forcing him into a leadership contest sooner or later, very much like John Major post 1992.
 
MikeG said:
It was the stupidity of an absolutist position which was the problem.
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I'd be interested to look back and see what kind of positions MikeG had during the time of the indyref on things like EU Membership, usage of the pound etc for Scotland. I wonder if any of them could be regarded as stupidly absolutist?

I know that a lot of the Brexit crew certainly were quite happy to hold such absurd positions when it suited their needs.
 
jimbob said:
This looks like an interesting site.

It claims to have non- party-political aims but I have found at least one blog criticising it

https://fullfact.org/europe/
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Thanks JB.

It does appear to be making an effort to be factual and neutral. As evidenced here earlier, though, there is a strong streak of "if you're not with us you're against us" in some people's mentality, so neutrality will undoubtedly be criticised in some quarters.
 
MikeG said:
No. Perhaps your understanding of some words in English is less than adequate. Which bit of "biased" are you struggling with, from your own definition? BMW's output was propaganda. So is most of the stuff put out by both parts of the Leave campaign, and by the Remain campaign. You've wasted too much of my time piddling about with the meaning a very well understood word without making a single substantive point yourself. Sneering at others is clearly your forte.
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My point was quite substantive. Your not liking it doesn't change that.

You used a descriptive term which is conventionally seen as a pejorative, and the way you used it clearly intended that inference. Until you were called on it, at which point you began furiously backpedaling and suddenly developed your own, new, idiosyncratic meaning of a commonly understood word.

It makes it very difficult for anyone to be entirely certain exactly what your point is.

But now I see where the actual problem lies. You don't really have one. A point, that is. Just some inchoate "BMW bad.", followed by a succession of unconvincing "That isn't what I said." denials.

Lacking any substantive response of your own you have now decided to resort to insults.

That says a lot about your own faith in the quality of the arguments you are offering.

Accusations of "propaganda" aside just exactly what is your opinion of the statement from BMW which you chose to quote? Do you find fault with its substance? If so, then what fault do you find?

What was the reason for bringing it up if not?
 
Garrison said:
I think Boris is on a win-win here. If leave wins he's going to be PM within a few weeks. If they lose he will blame 'Project Fear and the euroskeptics will make life impossible for Cameron forcing him into a leadership contest sooner or later, very much like John Major post 1992.
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Cameron has already said he will move over before the next scheduled election in 2020, so a contest is coming (and don't they all know it ...)

If the Brexiters fail Boris won't be the only one hoping to take advantage, and a period of finger-pointing and fratricidal blood-letting can be expected. On the Cameron/Osborne side mountains will be moved if they can be dropped on Boris and anybody still associating with him. It should be great fun.

If the Brexiters win Cameron/Osborne may drop the whole mess in Boris's lap while they spend more time on their finances until the call from the party comes. Not that the occasion will arise, of course.
 
CapelDodger said:
........If the Brexiters win ...... Not that the occasion will arise, of course.
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Are you absolutely sure? The last 3 polls have Stay: Leave as follows

47:49 (ORB Mar 14th)
43:41 (ICM Mar 13th)
40:41 (ICM Mar 6th)

Of the most recent 10 polls, Stay: Leave has been 5:5

From here.

I'm not convinced that anyone can be confident of the result either way.
 
MikeG said:
Because you insisted that there is no way that Britain can negotiate a tariff-free trading arrangement, and yet Norway have (pretty much). No more, no less than that.
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Fun fact: Norway pays about 90% of the cost per citizen to the EU compared to the UK right now. More importantly they get no say in the policies that they are affected by whereas the UK, by virtue of its large population, is very influential.

So if the UK would get a deal similar to Norways, which would likely take years to hammer out, they would end up paying roughly the same amount of money as before while in return actually end up losing political power it once had.
 
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Arcade22 said:
..........So if the UK would get a deal similar to Norways..........
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Just for the avoidance of doubt, and for those who like to take snippets out of context, let me re-iterate that I have never suggested Norway as a model for a post-Brexit relationship between Britain and the EU. It was only ever cited as an example of a tariff-free agreement, because some claimed such a thing was impossible.

I take your broader point about Norway being a de-facto member without the influence. They weren't in a great position to negotiate a good deal when they left.
 
MikeG said:
Just for the avoidance of doubt, and for those who like to take snippets out of context, let me re-iterate that I have never suggested Norway as a model for a post-Brexit relationship between Britain and the EU. It was only ever cited as an example of a tariff-free agreement, because some claimed such a thing was impossible.
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Such an agreement would not be "impossible," but it would be highly unlikely to be on the table without additional terms that Brexits would inevitably baulk at.

I take your broader point about Norway being a de-facto member without the influence. They weren't in a great position to negotiate a good deal when they left.
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Norway never joined, so clearly it then didn't leave.
 
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