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Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Both things are true.
The fact that you try to deny them, just tells that you intend to deny that B/M is inconsistent on multiple levels.

If there is a legal problem with the Marasca CSC panel verdict, including the Motivation Report, please cite the official legal measures in Italy that are addressing the alleged problem.

For example, is there any measure by the High Council of the Judiciary to address the problem(s) you claim are in the Marasca verdict?

Has the CSC itself convened any panel or United Section to review alleged problems in the Marasca panel verdict?

Has the Minister of Justice issued any statement or announced any investigation of the Marasca panel verdict?

Have Mignini and his sycophants begun a march on Rome?
 
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No evidence was presented at any stage that there was DNA contamination or that the investigation was "fatally flawed".

Really? What about the "46 days", the trashed crime scene, the lack of proper lab procedures, the unpacking/repacking of the knife, the wide swabbing practice, the shoe covers, etc., etc., etc.?
 
It didn't need to be tested twice as all parties were agreed the results were sound.

Fingerprints are not tested twice, either.

No, they didn't and that is no reason not to repeat a test. It is repeatability not observation that ensures the soundness of a result.
 
I was told this before. Then Chieffi happened. Then I stopped believing it. And you should to.

The Brady case here may be a little instructive as the most recent appeal hearing was reported to be dealing with the facts (evidence) even though they were only supposed to be dealing with the law.

I was once working on a legal case involving divorce not as a lawyer but investigated the law but soon found that while it said one thing the real practice of the type of case didn't follow the law as written or at least it wasn't common practice.

In the case here while the ISC may be tasked with looking at the law and interpretation it will often end up dealing with the evidence on some level, how could they not?
 
This is definitely not the case in the US. There are thousands of laws still on the books that are no longer actionable and are unenforceable because case law, international treaties or Constitutional review supercedes them.

In Italy, the Constitutional Court has authority to review laws for their conformance with the Italian Constitution, under conditions specified in the Constitution. And Italian laws are passed and changed by the Italian Parliament.

CSC decisions are used by the Italian lower courts to guide them in interpretation of law, although Italy supposedly does not use precedent because it has a civil law (rather than common law) system.

I believe your statement that in the US, case law can overturn a statute law is not strictly correct. Case law may affect the interpretation of statute law. Only a judgment by a court that a state or federal law was unconstitutional (contrary to state or federal constitution) would overturn the law. And that court judgment in usual practice would not be final until all appeals were completed, which could be at the state Supreme Court or federal Supreme Court level.
 
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The positions of 530.1 and 530.2 have very different status as for their effects in civil law.

Any chance you could provide an example in which a 530.2 acquittal allowed a civil suit to be filed post acquittal?
 
This really is unadulterated nonsense. The law is the law is the law. Full stop.
Not knowing how to interpret it, or bending it, as the Fifth Chambers did, doesn't make it less so.

Again, this is simply not true. It is clear that this law (the use of paragraphs 1 or 2) is simply a matter of convention and does not have any effectual difference.
 
Originally Posted by Machiavelli View Post
Art. 620 only refers to the sub-species "without remand" option (not to the reasons for annulment themselves).
This however does not make the B/M decision become legal or legitimate. It is illegal and fraudolent on multiple grounds. There is one thing however that is adamant and agreed upon by jurisprudence: the Cassazione does *not* assess evidence. It does not make any finding/assessment about guilt or innocence, nor on evidence, not even findings that evidence is insufficient.
Whether a 530.2 decision comes as a consequence of annulment, the annulment is anyway an assessment about the lower courts job, and an only be a decision in point of law, not an assessment or a finding about the existence/non existenc/quality of evidence. The SC cannot assess evidence, and cannot see evidence. It does not access the evidence file. Even when the assessment has to do with reasoning and assessment about evidence, the assessment by Cassazione is never on the evidence.


Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Apparently you are wrong.


Because the Italian Supreme Court ruled. My guess is that they have a better handle on what is illegal than a two bit couch lawyer second guessing their decisions. Proof is in the pudding sweetheart.
 
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Some of what you have posted here is true and some is false.

The information about the reform of Article 533.1 in 2006 to conform to the BARD standard and complete the transformation of the Italian inquisitional system to an adversarial system comes from an essay by Professor Mitja Gialuz, Professor of Criminal Procedure at the University of Trieste.

If you believe that you can inform him of any errors in his essay, please contact him. Here is what I believe to be his web page:

http://www.penalecontemporaneo.it/gliautori/82-mitja_gialuz/

He seems to have only about 40 publications on law listed - I didn't try to translate their titles - but I'm sure you'll be able to set him on the right legal path. Of course, who knows, he may be in one of those conspiracies of the Masons or Friends of Amanda so he won't be able to appreciate your legal arguments.

It's not necessary for me to argue with one scholar. It is sufficient to report the argumentations in the doctrine on this point:

(...) La giurisprudenza ha precisato che con la previsione della regola per la quale il giudice pronuncia sentenza di condanna solo se l’imputato risulta colpevole del reato contestatogli “al di là di ogni ragionevole dubbio”, di cui all’art. 5 l. n. 46/2006 modificativo del comma 1 dell’art. 533 c.p.p., il legislatore ha formalizzato un principio già acquisito in tema di condizioni per la condanna, stante la preesistente regola, di cui all’art. 530 c. 2 c.p.p., per la quale in caso di insufficienza o contraddittorietà della prova l’imputato va assolto (Cass. pen., sez. I, 30402/2006).

Anche una parte della dottrina, criticando aspramente la legge Pecorella nel suo complesso, ha minimizzato la valenza di detta novità normativa, sostenendone la portata meramente ricognitiva di una regola di giudizio già presente in un sistema che, abolita la vecchia formula dell’assoluzione per insufficienza di prove, impone al giudice di assolvere ex art. 530 comma 2 c.p.p. quando si ritenga insufficiente la prova di reità.(...)

The introduction of "BARD" formula - known as "Pecorella law" - is considered by part of the doctrine as without effect, being a mere ridefinition of the already existing standard. As it is also reported: "si tratta di un principio che permea l’intero ordinamento processuale" (it is a principle that is inherent to the *whole* ordenment, not something determined by art. 533).

It is also true however that since the Pecorella law, the SC has ruled specifically on the definition of the new wording, so that, albeit there is no change between the "standards" if you compare it with the previous SC case law, the SC re-defines the standard using the new words. In particular, in the 2008 ruling SC explains the limit negatively, by a ruling that explains (as it did in the previous jurisprudence) what kind of "doubts" are *not reasonable:

il citato dettato normativo impone di pronunciare condanna quando il dato probatorio acquisito lascia fuori solo eventualità remote, pur astrattamente formulabili e prospettabili come possibili in rerum natura, ma la cui concreta realizzazione nella fattispecie concreta non trova il benché minimo riscontro nelle emergenze processuali, ponendosi al di fuori dell’ordine naturale delle cose e della normale razionalità umana (Cass. pen., sez. I, sent. 21 maggio - 29 luglio 2008 n. 31456

It is because this "better definition" of what is "not reasonable", or definition through "new wording", the reason why some scholars, in opposition to others, call the Pecorella principle an "innovation".
But there isn't any "change in standard".

The art. 530.1 is very diferent from 530.2 as for what concern its effects in civil law.

Cass. 17401/2004 and Cass. 20325/2006 establish that:

il giudicato penale di assoluzione ha effetto preclusivo nel giudizio civile di danni solo quando contenga un effettivo e specifico accertamento circa l’insussistenza o del fatto o della partecipazione dell’imputato, e non anche quando l’assoluzione sia determinata dal diverso accertamento dell’insussistenza di sufficienti elementi di prova circa la commissione del fatto o l’attribuibilità di esso all’imputato, e cioè quando l’assoluzione sia stata pronunziata a norma dell’art. 530 c.p.p., comma 2

A res judicata (definitive verdict) of acquittal has effect to prevent civil damage action only when contains an effective and specific finding of facts that the crime didn't take place or that the suspect was not involved in it, and has *not* such legal consequence in the event that the acquittal is determined by the non-existence of sufficient elements of proof, that is when it is issued in accord with 530 second paragraph.

CPP Article 652 provides the binding end to any civil action against all persons finally acquitted under the specification "the accused did not commit the crime" as long as the civil action occurred during the criminal proceedings.

You are wrong, as I just proved.

If you maintain your statement is somehow true, please provide the citations from the CPP to prove your point.

As you can see, relevant citatios are not from CPP, but from SC case law.
 
So if any of the nonsense you have put into your post is true we shall see some change relative to the Marasca CSC panel verdict?

Will there be a law suit or some other action?

Will the High Council of the Judiciary or the Minister of Justice discipline Marasca and Bruno?

Will all the Masons be arrested?

Let us know when any of that happens, please.

It's surprisng you call it "nonsence" and only mention that "I" put it into a post, and you skim that it's quoted from another source, the Cassazione. You apaprently didn't notice those not things that "I" write, those are principles the Cassazione wrote.

You have abandoned attempts of rebuttal, I see. But you refuse to admit it, so you choose divert on some other topic.

As for questions:

Will the High Council of the Judiciary or the Minister of Justice discipline Marasca and Bruno?

In my opinion no, first it is not probable because of the current political composition of the CSM, second because Marasca has conveniently decided to retire immediately after the ruling. Bruno suffers from severe mental health problems and may retire soon or not survive long enough.

Will there be a law suit or some other action?

In my opinion yes, more than one.

Will all the Masons be arrested?

It's a ludicrous statement.
 
In law, and in ethics, yes it is.

Was O.J found not guilty? Yes. Was he able to use that in civil court to prove he was innocent? No.

If you were correct no one found not guilty in criminal court could be successfully sued in civil court for the act.


Indeed it is impossible for any court to declare Knox or Sollecito factually innocent, since they cannot prove they did not commit the murder. Therefore, it is impossible for any court to acquit Knox or Sollecito under 530.1. Simple as that.

What changed from a year ago when you were sure it was a one? I know you admit to being wrong then but why? The law didn't change as it was the criminal code then too. The case didn't change. The only thing that has changed is that it was announced it was a para 2 and the PGP including Maresca were correct.

No. It. Is. Not. If one is using the (soon to be abolished) Scottish system as a comparator, then 530.2 is in fact comparable to both "not guilty" and "not proven", with the exception that a small subset of "not guilty" (i.e. where a court believes the defendant has proven his/her factual innocence or where a court determines that no crime took place) would need to be split out and placed into the 530.1 bracket.

Read Vixen's post of the expert that said it was comparable to "not proven".
 
Numbers said:
Will there be a law suit or some other action?

In my opinion yes, more than one.
Who will bring the suit or the suits?

You do understand, do you not, that ever since the Nencini conviction, there has not been a single official ruling that has gone your way. From the time that Nencini was sanctioned, to when Mignini was sanctioned, to the time that Knox was acquitted of defamation, to the M/B acquittals themselves - all I am saying is that you perhaps should make these predictions of reversal with some caution!!!

Numbers said:
Will all the Masons be arrested?

It's a ludicrous statement.

Which part of the statement is ludicrous? The "all"? Or is it ludicrous because the Masons have such power in your country that no one dare move against them?

I hesitate to rehearse in front of your the various permutations of conspircay that you have offered here over the years, because you get mad when someone else summarizes it for you.

Can you tell us where the investigation into Wladimiro De Nunzio/Claudio Pratillo Hellmann is at this time? Surely the reversal you expect will ensnare these people who you have called criminals.
 
Bill Williams said:
What is remarkable about this post - fresh off of saying, "B/M cannot assess evidence, and cannot even see it," Machiavelli says that B/M, "B/M also said a number of things that you don't like to accept, like that it is a proven fact....."

Which is it?

Both things are true.
The fact that you try to deny them, just tells that you intend to deny that B/M is inconsistent on multiple levels.

Apologies, Machiavelli, it is my fault you missed the point made. I hope the following will help:

Why is it that you keep saying that M/B established some facts about the case when you say "B/M cannot assess evidence"? You see, I am not claiming that M/B is inconsistent in this regard - I am citing you for inconsistency for saying they can't assess evidence, but at the same time they establish things as proven fact?

The inconsistency is yours, my friend. You fail to acknowledge that M/B was advancing a hypothetical, the point being that even if that hypothetical was true the pair still are not guilty.
 
Mach posted this:

il giudicato penale di assoluzione ha effetto preclusivo nel giudizio civile di danni solo quando contenga un effettivo e specifico accertamento circa l’insussistenza o del fatto o della partecipazione dell’imputato, e non anche quando l’assoluzione sia determinata dal diverso accertamento dell’insussistenza di sufficienti elementi di prova circa la commissione del fatto o l’attribuibilità di esso all’imputato, e cioè quando l’assoluzione sia stata pronunziata a norma dell’art. 530 c.p.p., comma 2


translated:

criminal acquittal judged has preclusive effect in the civil action for damages only when it contains an effective and specific assessment concerning the non-existence or the fact or of the defendant's participation, and not even when an acquittal is determined by the different assessment of the absence sufficient evidence as to the commission of the offense or the attribuibilità it to the accused, and that is when the acquittal was pronounced in accordance with art. 530 Code of Criminal Procedure, paragraph 2

I hope an Italian speaker (Methos) will look into this.

It certainly makes sense that a 1 would eliminate the ability to file a civil suit based on the act the courts have declared the person innocent of committing.
 
I don't think so. Redundant yes, as "moot says it all".

But that 530 is now effectively moot in practice, since one can only be pronounced "guilty" or "not guilty", and that it ought therefore to be either extensively rewritten or scrapped.

Indulge and explain exactly what effectively moot means.
 
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