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Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Grinder, have you ever read an appeal courts decision in the United States?
For example, reading through Derick Tice, the federal judge does not argue that he is innocent. The judge probably feels the guy is innocent but argues instead on points of law.

Well I don't remember reading a criminal appeal but it is a completely different animal here. Here they usually only argue on points of law. Whether a judge thinks a defendant is guilty or innocent shouldn't enter into the decision.

Because the courts of appeals possess only appellate jurisdiction, they do not hold trials. Instead, appeals courts review decisions of trial courts for errors of law. Accordingly, an appeals court considers only the record (that is, the papers the parties filed and the transcripts and any exhibits from any trial) from the trial court, and the legal arguments of the parties. These arguments, which are presented in written form, and can range in length from dozens to hundreds of pages and are known as briefs. Sometimes lawyers are permitted to add to their written briefs with oral arguments before the appeals judges. At such hearings, only the parties' lawyers speak to the court.​

I believe state courts operate in a similar fashion.
 
No point looking up words on google in common vernacular.

You need to look up the legal definition, which comes up with:

insufficient evidence
insufficient evidence
n. a finding (decision) by a trial judge or an appeals court that the prosecution in a criminal case or a plaintiff in a lawsuit has not proved the case because the attorney did not present enough convincing evidence. Insufficient evidence usually results in dismissal of the case after the prosecution or the plaintiff has completed his/her introduction of evidence or, if on appeal, reversal of the judgment by the trial court.

------
insufficient evidence a negligible amount of evidence, absence of sufficient evidence, bereft of evidience, deficient amount of evidence, devoid of sufficient proof, failing proof, inadequate amount of persuasive facts, inadequate confirmation, inadequate facts to prove the point in question, inadequate means of proof, inadequate proof, inadequate proof of facts, inadequate substantiation, incomplete evidence, insufficient admitted testimony, insufficient body of facts, insufficient corroboration, insufficient facts to establish the point in issue, insufficient means of proving a fact, insufficient proof at trial, insufficient verification, lacking proof, lean on evidence, meager degree of evidence, paltry amount of evidence, scant testimony, slim proof, sparse proof, thin evidence, weak on evidence
Associated concepts: dismissal of an action, woefully insufficient evidence


Source: legal-dictionary: the free dictionary (free use)

ETA See also Cornell Uni:

insufficient evidence
Evidence which fails to meet the burden of proof. In a trial, if the prosecution finishes presenting their case and the judge finds they have not met their burden of proof, the judge may dismiss the case (even before the defense presents their side) for insufficient evidence.

Insufficient evidence may even be grounds for appeal.


So, you see, it should be a preliminary matter.

Except that M&B ruled on contradictory evidence and badly handled evidence.

Btw - insufficient is pretty much exactly the same inside and outside the law.

ETA - additionally it is important to remember we are discussing a translation.
 
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Yes, Andreotti was acquitted of mafia conspiracy by the ISC who specifically quoted Art 530 para 2.

1. This Article is not used otherwise by the supreme court. It is a jurisdiction of a lower court. 'Case dismissed' is strictly speaking for those cases that haven't gone to trial, i.e., preliminary ruling.

2. IMV Bruno-Marasca used article 530 para 2 in error, probably as suggested by Bongiorno, who also represented Andreotti in the aforementioned ISC hearing.

3. Bruno-Marasca also erred in how they treated a murder case. AIUI it MUST be remitted to a lower court if there is an issue with the first instance fact-finding of evidence. They had no authority to just throw the case out. There is no substantiation at all that the investigation, or forensics, was flawed. No evidence was presented to the effect that "contamination of the DNA" occurred. Italy has no sub judice laws as far as press reporting is concerned, so "media influence" is not a valid legal point on which to hang an appeal. The defense did not plead in their appeal the alternative: that even if the defendants were at the scene, it doesn't follow they were involved, therefore Bruno-Marasca erred in making such a finding. Whilst the Supreme Court has wide-ranging powers, it is actually very restricted in what rulings it can make.

4. Bruno-Marasca exceeded their remit.

I have numbered statements within your quote for ease of reference.

Regarding statements 1., 2., 3., and 4.: Your statements are false. Provide a citation for each if you can to support your argument; otherwise each one is as specious as your remarks on DNA and proteins.
 
When will the penny drop Bruno-Marasca erred even mentioning Article 530 para 2.

DNA is a building block of protein, so I'm am not really sure what your beef is. (No pun intended.)

DNA is not composed of proteins or of amino acids, which are the building blocks of proteins.

Proteins are not composed of DNA or of nucleic acids, but they are composed of amino acids.

My beef is that your posts are full of falsehoods, even on the most basic scientific information easily discoverable. Your posts in general appear to be fictions made up by you or which you have copied from others, and fail to include any true information.
 
To review: When the verdict came down the defense lawyers used terms such as a complete exoneration. The PGP said no it was a para 2 dismissal including Maresca. PIP here and elsewhere mocked the PGP including Mach saying it must be a para 1. There was no discussion at first that 530 didn't really mean anything or was just a remnant of the inquisitorial system. As it became clear it was a para 2 acquittal the conversation by PIP changed to saying a one was only for no crime committed or the law didn't really mean anything anymore or there is no difference legally or the "people" say it is only a way for the judges to send a signal.

I wasn't familiar with the law at verdict time and only became familiar as time went by. It became clear that the paras are different and the judicial system understand s and uses the difference. Adding to the PGP saying it was significant we received an article written by an FOA who has been well regarded for his analysis for years saying he knew immediately from the para 2 dismissal that the MR would not be a clear statement of innocence.

Only Vixen has ever maintained a para 2 is only the equivalent of dropping the charges. It is true that Hellmann didn't use 530 for his dismissal. He did mention it in his MR.

PIP repeating there is no difference a million times doesn't make it so. I have infinitely more faith in Cheli understanding how a para 2 dismissal compares to a 1 than anyone here.

The denial by PIP that the M&B verdict left many shadows and doubts to me is equivalent to PGP believing Curatolo and Kokomani.

I don't know if a para 2 leave more of an opening for future legal action as Vixen, Mach and the PGP say but the court definitely didn't declare them innocent. While the expression "did not commit the crime" does appear in the MR I'm not convinced that isn't just saying they are "not guilty". If we had some first level cases to compare and see when a para 2 acquittal is used do they also use the term because they "did not commit the crime". This could also be a way of emphasizing the crime did occur but the prosecution didn't these people committed it BARD.
 
PIP repeating there is no difference a million times doesn't make it so. I have infinitely more faith in Cheli understanding how a para 2 dismissal compares to a 1 than anyone here.

Repeating it the other way a million times - same. Then again, can it be all bad that you're holding Cheli in good faith? Maybe this is the start of an epiphany from your side of the fence.

My bet is that you'll be quoting Candace Dempsey by the end of the week!
 
DNA is not a "building block" of proteins. Amino Acids are the building blocks of proteins. You don't get it and you don't get that you don't get it. This is a prime example of the Dunning/Kruger effect.

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

It's strange because Vixen on two or three occasions has, indeed, 'fessed up about making a mistake. A brief read of the Wikipedia page on the subject of DNA makes it clear that on this one Vixen doesn't even want to know.... who knows, maybe someone has fed this misinformation to her; and to retract it will cause her to doubt that "someone" as a source.... who knows.
 
...and the final verdict passed is case dismissed because of a lack of evidence.

Which is different to your previous claim of "...the charges were dropped...".

Interesting to note that "case dismissed" applies where the prosecution's case is absolutely hopeless.

Lacking evidence....none.
 
Talking nonsense doesn't mask your error. As I said before, dropping of charges is subject to the Statute of Limitation. Thus if one has charges dropped against one, you can still be charged again, (there is no double jeopardy if it was never tried) but only within the statute of limitations.

On the other hand what you suggest is nonsense. Having gone through a preliminary hearing in a first level court, a first level trial, an appeal to a second tier court, review by the third tier court referral back to a second tier court and final review by a third tier court; the pretence that Knox and Sollecito were never tried and just had charges dropped is foolish. Sollecito and Knox went through six separate court 'trials'. A final verdict was returned. No sentence was applied, therefore as the Italian constitution specifies they were not guilty.
 
When will the penny drop Bruno-Marasca erred even mentioning Article 530 para 2.

DNA is a building block of protein, so I'm am not really sure what your beef is. (No pun intended.)

If you are in a hole stop digging! You are just making yourself look worse, Dna is not a building block of protein.
 
Guys I don't know what your problem is. Vixen has been evaluated by professional level evaluators in all relevant academic fields so she probably knows more about DNA and protein than everyone else that actually does biochemistry. Much like how she knows more about forensic science than Peter Gill and Forensic Science International. We should be grateful that she has unmasked FSI for what it is -- a paid shill organization founded for the sole purpose of exonerating Amanda Knox. The world class forensic genetics work they publish is just a side gig.
 
....

PIP repeating there is no difference a million times doesn't make it so. I have infinitely more faith in Cheli understanding how a para 2 dismissal compares to a 1 than anyone here.

....

Please provide any citation from a reputable source, such as the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure or other Italian legal document, that there is a difference in legal consequences arising from an acquittal under CPP Art. 530.2 compared to one under 530.1, for the specification, "the accused did not commit the act (crime)".

I understand that you and some others, such as apparently Luca Cheli, believe there is a difference in the perception of the two paragraphs in Italy. But again, for skeptics, I suggest that anecdotal information is not a substitute for reliable scientifically or systematically derived information.

I understand that this is a matter of faith for you, rather than skepticism, as you indicate in your post.

The information from Vixen regarding Vixen's claims of legal consequences of a CPP 530.2 acquittal I find contrary to the information that I have read in the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure, and I have posted on the contradictions with citations and translated CPP articles from the book edited by Gialuz, Luparia, and Scarpa.

A skeptic, given some anecdotal information with no scientific or systematic evidence or confirmation, might instead adopt an "agnostic" rather than a "faith" view of this issue of perception. That agnosticism reflects my view of the perception issue.
 
On the other hand what you suggest is nonsense. Having gone through a preliminary hearing in a first level court, a first level trial, an appeal to a second tier court, review by the third tier court referral back to a second tier court and final review by a third tier court; the pretence that Knox and Sollecito were never tried and just had charges dropped is foolish. Sollecito and Knox went through six separate court 'trials'. A final verdict was returned. No sentence was applied, therefore as the Italian constitution specifies they were not guilty.

This is exactly correct and is based upon Article 27 of the Italian Constitution.

The amazing thing about some of the posters on this internet forum is that they will choose to make up or copy any false information that "supports" their position, even if a brief search through a biochemistry reference or the Italian Constitution (available on the internet in an English translation provided by the Italian Senate) would give true information that contradicts their position.
 
Please provide any citation from a reputable source, such as the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure or other Italian legal document, that there is a difference in legal consequences arising from an acquittal under CPP Art. 530.2 compared to one under 530.1, for the specification, "the accused did not commit the act (crime)".

Can you provide a translation of para 2 that includes your quote?

Why do you not acknowledge that no one but Vixen is claiming a specific difference in legal consequences? Please produce what you demand stating there is absolutely no difference.

I understand that you and some others, such as apparently Luca Cheli, believe there is a difference in the perception of the two paragraphs in Italy. But again, for skeptics, I suggest that anecdotal information is not a substitute for reliable scientifically or systematically derived information.

I understand that this is a matter of faith for you, rather than skepticism, as you indicate in your post.

How about I'm totally skeptical of your and others here that claim there is no difference knowing anything about the issue and certainly not as much as Cheli. Apparently Luca :rolleyes: hahahaha. He said it as clear as day.
 
Repeating it the other way a million times - same. Then again, can it be all bad that you're holding Cheli in good faith? Maybe this is the start of an epiphany from your side of the fence.

My bet is that you'll be quoting Candace Dempsey by the end of the week!

If Candace had any special knowledge or position, I might.
You only repeat the innocents are free, the innocents are free, ACQUITTED, ACQUITTED yeah yeah yeah. You add to that you've been told and people say and other claims lacking sources.

Cheli is well respected as a supporter of the kids and has commented on legal matter for years. If his opinion has been called into question by PIP I've never seen it. In addition a bunch of PGP claim even more doubt about the verdict.

You have nothing to counter his article. Nothing.
 
If Candace had any special knowledge or position, I might.
You only repeat the innocents are free, the innocents are free, ACQUITTED, ACQUITTED yeah yeah yeah. You add to that you've been told and people say and other claims lacking sources.

Cheli is well respected as a supporter of the kids and has commented on legal matter for years. If his opinion has been called into question by PIP I've never seen it. In addition a bunch of PGP claim even more doubt about the verdict.

You have nothing to counter his article. Nothing.

Goalposts. Moved.

When the goalposts are at perception, rather than law, people will gravitate to the perception they either wish, or fear, the most.

I got lost in this thread when you insisted that this was about the perception delivered by #1 vs. #2. Then you said that it was also my own concern, the perception generated by contrasting the two.

Great. Except the goalposts I was facing was the difference in legal consequence between #1 vs. #2. Apparently there are none. That finishes the discussion for me.

Obviously not for you.
 
Goalposts. Moved.

When the goalposts are at perception, rather than law, people will gravitate to the perception they either wish, or fear, the most.

I got lost in this thread when you insisted that this was about the perception delivered by #1 vs. #2. Then you said that it was also my own concern, the perception generated by contrasting the two.

Great. Except the goalposts I was facing was the difference in legal consequence between #1 vs. #2. Apparently there are none. That finishes the discussion for me.

Obviously not for you.

No Bill as always when you lose the match you blame the goal posts or yell SQUIRREL.

Please find where I ever said a 2 isn't an acquittal. There is a legal difference in that a 1 is a declaration of innocence and a 2 is a "not guilty". O.J. was found not guilty but not innocent. If we had the Italian system it certainly wouldn't have been a para 1 acquittal.

I have referred to Cheli since very early on as he clearly stated the different paras mean something in Italy.

Just like a 100% and 70% are both passing grades that doesn't mean there is no difference. Just because a para 1 and para 2 are both acquittals doesn't mean there isn't a difference.
 
DNA is not composed of proteins or of amino acids, which are the building blocks of proteins.

Proteins are not composed of DNA or of nucleic acids, but they are composed of amino acids.

My beef is that your posts are full of falsehoods, even on the most basic scientific information easily discoverable. Your posts in general appear to be fictions made up by you or which you have copied from others, and fail to include any true information.

Your claims the kids were declared innocent and exonerated are the falsehoods.

My knowledge of DNA is completely irrelevant.

Going through my posts with a fine-tooth comb hoping to spot a typo or a quibble is incredibly sad, given your deliberate and transparent agenda to present an Article 530.2 verdict as a being the same as 530.1.
 
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1. Can you provide a translation of para 2 that includes your quote?
2. Why do you not acknowledge that no one but Vixen is claiming a specific difference in legal consequences? Please produce what you demand stating there is absolutely no difference.


How about I'm totally skeptical of your and others here that claim there is no difference knowing anything about the issue and certainly not as much as Cheli. Apparently Luca :rolleyes: hahahaha. He said it as clear as day.

1. In Italian - previously given in post #3803:

Art. 530 - Sentenza di assoluzione
1. Se il fatto non sussiste, se l'imputato non lo ha commesso, se il fatto non costituisce reato o non è previsto dalla legge come reato ovvero se il reato è stato commesso da persona non imputabile o non punibile per un'altra ragione, il giudice pronuncia sentenza di assoluzione indicandone la causa nel dispositivo.
2. Il giudice pronuncia sentenza di assoluzione anche quando manca, è insufficiente o è contraddittoria la prova che il fatto sussiste, che l'imputato lo ha commesso, che il fatto costituisce reato o che il reato è stato commesso da persona imputabile.
3. Se vi è la prova che il fatto è stato commesso in presenza di una causa di giustificazione o di una causa personale di non punibilità ovvero vi è dubbio sull'esistenza delle stesse, il giudice pronuncia sentenza di assoluzione a norma del comma 1.
4. Con la sentenza di assoluzione il giudice applica, nei casi previsti dalla legge, le misure di sicurezza.

In English translation (from Gialuz, Luparia, and Scarpa) - previously given in post #3765:

CPP Article 530 Judgment of acquittal

1. If the criminal act did not occur, the accused did not commit it, the act is not deemed an offence by law or it has been committed by a person who cannot be accused or punished for a different reason, the judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal, mentioning the cause in the operative part of the judgment.

2. The judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal also in case of insufficient, contradictory or lacking proof that the criminal act occurred, the accused committed it, the act is deemed an offence by law, the offence was committed by a person with mental capacity.

3. The judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal under paragraph 1 if there is proof that the underlying causes of the committed act are either a reason for justification or a personal reason for exemption from punishment or there is a doubt on the existence of such reasons.

4. By means of the judgment of acquittal, the judge shall apply the security measures, in the cases provided for by law.

Italian Constitution, Article 27 (clause 2)

2. A defendant shall be considered not guilty until a final sentence has been passed.

In the English translation, I bolded the language that is the equivalent of "the accused did not commit the act (crime)". If there is an acquittal, the defendant did not commit the crime in accordance with the proof (evidence) being insufficient, contradictory or lacking.

The logic is that one can only be judged to have committed the crime if there is proof (evidence) of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt (CPP Article 533.1).

If the proof does not meet that standard, one has not committed the crime, according to the law.

Furthermore, in giving a verdict of acquittal, an Italian court gives a specification of the type of acquittal. There are only five types of specification of acquittal under Italian law. In the Knox - Sollecito case, the Marasca CSC panel's specification was "the appellants {the accused} did not commit the act (crime)". So by the verdict specification, the CSC indicates that is what it meant within CPP Article 530.2, which has other types of specifications within it (for example, that "the criminal act did not occur" - note in 530.2 this is also preceded by the phrase "insufficient, contradictory or lacking proof").

2. Who else maintains that there are different legal consequences - on ISF, Mach; I believe Vixen and Mach had the same or essentially the same arguments. Do you know of anyone else? Did they have citations from the CPP to support their claims? On checking the CPP, were the claims verified?

In terms of no different legal consequences for an acquittal with specification "the accused did not commit the act (crime)" under CPP Art. 530.2 compared to 530.1, I have already provided that information. I will summarize here.

CPP Art. 648 Irrevocability of judgments and criminal decrees

1. Judgments delivered at trial which are not subject to an appelate remedy other than revision are final.

CPP Art. 629 Convictions subject to revision

1. The revision of judgments of conviction ... may be performed at any time and in the cases established by law in favour of the convicted persons, even if the sentence has already been enforced or is extinguished.

{There is no revision possible for an acquittal.}

CPP Art. 649 Ne bis in idem (no double jeopardy)

1. The accused person who has been dismissed or convicted by a judgment or criminal decree that has become final shall not be prosecuted again for the same offence, even if his conduct is considered differently in terms of legal definition, stage of the offence or circumstances....

{"Dismissed" here is a general term meaning "acquitted" or "dismissed for other reasons" (such as, for example, time-barred by statute of limitations)}

CPP Art. 652 Effects of the criminal judgment of acquittal in trials for civil or administrative damages

1. The final criminal judgment of acquittal delivered after a trial shall have binding effect, with relation to either the ascertainment that the criminal act did not occur, or the accused did not commit it or the act has been carried out to perform a duty or to exercise a legal right, in the civil or administrative trial for restitution or compensation of damages brought by the injured person or in his interest, provided that the injured has joined the proceedings as a civil party or has been given the possibility to join the proceedings....
 
If you are in a hole stop digging! You are just making yourself look worse, Dna is not a building block of protein.

Oh really? I thought you claimed to be an expert.

The role of deoxyribonucleic acid or DNA in protein synthesis is that of a blueprint. It is a guide to the structure of the proteins being produced. Without DNA, the ribosomes in any given cell would not know what order to put amino acids in.

Clear now?
 
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