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Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Why do you think they chose 530.2 instead of 530.1?
I think there are three reasons for it:
1st: Chieffi went into fact finding big time and created "judicial facts"
2nd: to change or challenge these facts, they would have had to send the case up to a United Sections panel, (they aren't permitted to rule on things that have been decided by a Supreme Court panel on the same level) to decide if Hellmann's strict interpretation of art. 192.2 or Chieffi's “quae singula non probant, simul unita probant” is the correct way to adress "circumstantial evidence".
3rd: they simply wanted to end this case without putting the investigators and their methods into the spotlight again.

So I think, they took the easy way out and essentially re-instated the Hellmann verdict (another 530.2, even if the article isn't referred to)...

...... which is exactly why some say this "message sending" element has developed. Some say that judges at the same level as others judges who have created "judicial facts" are stuck with sending messages, because they won't (can't) outright contradict.

Which is a different enterprise than those claim produces two kinds of definitive acquittals - one definitive and one **more** definitive.

Like two women, both 7 weeks pregnant. One insists she's more pregnant.......
 
Well I see a screen capture of your post going up asap over at dot net.

In Italy they have different levels of acquittal. The kids got the lesser one.

Rote education requires repetition.

The point is it's not a lesser acquittal. Or are we going to go into non-existent future "what-now's" again?
 
...... which is exactly why some say this "message sending" element has developed. Some say that judges at the same level as others judges who have created "judicial facts" are stuck with sending messages, because they won't (can't) outright contradict.

Which is a different enterprise than those claim produces two kinds of definitive acquittals - one definitive and one **more** definitive.

Like two women, both 7 weeks pregnant. One insists she's more pregnant.......

The legal fraternity in many countries is lumbered with enormous etiquette baggage.

Judges dress up for the occasion and advocates (barristers) wear fancy black gowns. Tied in with all this pomp is an unwritten code of conduct where, barring outright negligence/incompetence an extreme reticence to criticize or contradict members of this "club" is adhered to.

I think Italy may have some of this baggage.

After reading court transcripts in the AK/RS case it's astounding to see the interruptions, leading of witnesses and general chaos.
 
The point is it's not a lesser acquittal. Or are we going to go into non-existent future "what-now's" again?

It's an absurdity of Italian Law.

If any Judge was able to give a definitive innocent verdict it would be an indictment on the legal system. What system puts a person through a court trial where the accused is so obviously innocent that a Judge sees but it still gets to court?

In South Africa where a prosecution's case is so weak the defence can apply for a dismissal during the trial.

The fact that the obviously innocent AK/RS were put through the ringer for years is in itself an indictment on a floundering legal system.
 
Mostly number 3. As Cheli pointed out they went way beyond "conflitto in giudicato" in their backing of multiple attackers.

Frankly I think they believed the case was botched by the PLE and ILE but that the one or both of the kids might have been involved. They blamed the international media for the pressure excusing the LE somewhat. I think many people in Italy think the kids guilty of something and they didn't want to face the hordes with a pure innocent verdict.

Why they did will most likely not come out but clearly they did. They didn't need to back up the acceptance of Amanda being there judicial truth but it seems they did.

In the end I think they wanted to get this case done and didn't want the spectacle of an extradition.

I think the motivation behind this verdict and the MR is to defend the Italian justice system as a whole (it takes as long as it takes...) and to clear the investigators involved of any wrongdoing (Amanda Knox is responsible for all the ill that befell her) their unnecessary take on the calunnia is ridiculous...
 
I think the motivation behind this verdict and the MR is to defend the Italian justice system as a whole (it takes as long as it takes...) and to clear the investigators involved of any wrongdoing (Amanda Knox is responsible for all the ill that befell her) their unnecessary take on the calunnia is ridiculous...

It's very clear that as much as they definitely acquitted, M/B drew a line in the sand in relation to calunnia. How's that for "sending a message" on an issue perhaps they didn't even need to comment on, as it had been definitely settled at the Chieffi trial - ECHR notwithstanding.
 
It's very clear that as much as they definitely acquitted, M/B drew a line in the sand in relation to calunnia. How's that for "sending a message" on an issue perhaps they didn't even need to comment on, as it had been definitely settled at the Chieffi trial - ECHR notwithstanding.

How could they have acquitted more indefinitely than they did?

Para 2. MR saying there were multiple killers and a staged burglary. Complimenting previous courts on their assessment that Amanda was there and even adding that she must have washed Meredith's blood off her hands. (I can't remember if any other court made that specific finding.)
 
<snip>
And, as I previously posted, the word "proscioglimento" has translations of: acquittal, exoneration, dismissal (of charges), and absolution.

A final dismissal of charges is no different than an acquittal under Italian law. But, in fact, the specification for the acquittal on the murder/rape charges by the Marasca CSC panel was CPP Article 530.2, "the accused did not commit the act (crime)". One charge, carrying of a knife, was dismissed as time-barred. This time-barred dismissal is also legally equivalent to an acquittal under Italian law.

No. You are wrong. Article 530 para 2 does NOT say "the accused did not commit the crime".

Why do YOU need to subvert the truth?

It says:
 

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No. You are wrong. Article 530 para 2 does NOT say "the accused did not commit the crime".

Why do YOU need to subvert the truth?

It says:

You are correct about the law:

CPP Article 530 Judgment of acquittal

1. If the criminal act did not occur, the accused did not commit it, the act is not deemed an offence by law or it has been committed by a person who cannot be accused or punished for a different reason, the judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal, mentioning the cause in the operative part of the judgment.

2. The judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal also in case of insufficient, contradictory or lacking proof that the criminal act occurred, the accused committed it, the act is deemed an offence by law, the offence was committed by a person with mental capacity.

3. The judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal under paragraph 1 if there is proof that the underlying causes of the committed act are either a reason for justification or a personal reason for exemption from punishment or there is a doubt on the existence of such reasons.

4. By means of the judgment of acquittal, the judge shall apply the security measures, in the cases provided for by law.


However M&B wrote - pursuant to Articles 620 letter L) and 530, section 2 Italian Code of Criminal
Procedure; excluding the aggravating circumstance under Italian under Article 61 n.
2 Penal Code, in relation to the crime of calumny, annuls the ruling under appeal
without referral with respect to the crimes under charges A), D) and E) of the rubric
because the appellants did not commit the act.
 
You are correct about the law:

CPP Article 530 Judgment of acquittal

1. If the criminal act did not occur, the accused did not commit it, the act is not deemed an offence by law or it has been committed by a person who cannot be accused or punished for a different reason, the judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal, mentioning the cause in the operative part of the judgment.

2. The judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal also in case of insufficient, contradictory or lacking proof that the criminal act occurred, the accused committed it, the act is deemed an offence by law, the offence was committed by a person with mental capacity.

3. The judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal under paragraph 1 if there is proof that the underlying causes of the committed act are either a reason for justification or a personal reason for exemption from punishment or there is a doubt on the existence of such reasons.

4. By means of the judgment of acquittal, the judge shall apply the security measures, in the cases provided for by law.


However M&B wrote - pursuant to Articles 620 letter L) and 530, section 2 Italian Code of Criminal
Procedure; excluding the aggravating circumstance under Italian under Article 61 n.
2 Penal Code, in relation to the crime of calumny, annuls the ruling under appeal
without referral with respect to the crimes under charges A), D) and E) of the rubric
because the appellants did not commit the act.

Be that as it may, Bruno-Marasca do not have the power to change the law (the law here being specifically CPP 530.2). Their wording consequently has no meaning, as the wording of the law has sovereignty over their wording. Nowhere in 530.2 does it include the words, "did not commit the crime", and 530.1 was not mentioned.
 
Another person did and said no one else was there. The accused came up with an airtight alibi. A witness came forward that saw the crime and said the defendant wasn't there. Here, we a case go to trial after a year and two witnesses were brought forward that testified the defendant had not been the aggressor. He was found not guilty as that all we have, but the jury added on that he had been the victim of an assault and all his legal fees were paid.

In Italy it would have been a para 1.

I completely disagree with your assumptions and examples.

1. Another person did [confessed to the crime (?)] and said no one else was there.
The problem with this example: the other person's statement may be false - the confession may be false and/or the statement no one else was there may be false.

There are US cases where police have obtained a false confession from a suspect, X, for example, for rape and murder, and later DNA analysis clears (to a reasonable person) the person who confessed - because there was no DNA of that suspect detected on the victim or even in the crime scene. So if suspect X stated that another possible suspect, Y, was not a the crime scene, that would not finally be credible exculpatory evidence benefiting Y.

Or X may indeed have been there, but chooses to protect Y.

2. The air-tight alibi may be fraudulent.

3. A similar argument with the witness. Witness identifications are notoriously unreliable.

My argument is that for each of your examples, and any example that may be produced, the full relevant range of evidence should be examined and verified before final conclusions are drawn.

In the Knox - Sollecito case, in order for the prosecution case to hold, there would need to have been a selective DNA clean-up of the murder room. That is a physical impossibility (with current technology), and is one of the strongest possible indications that Knox and Sollecito are innocent. But verification of this exculpatory evidence requires gathering appropriate DNA samples based on accepted scientifically-based forensic practices and obtaining DNA reference samples from Knox and Sollecito. And, of course, not allowing contamination and not allowing fraudulent lab work or analysis.

However, this would still be a process of the evaluation of evidence - although it should have been done and resolved fully in the early days of the case and no arrests of Knox, Sollecito, or Lumumba made or trial held. But the prosecution case is still defeated by the contradiction between the evidence - which is exculpatory - and the possibility of Knox and Sollecito committing the crime. Thus, the rationale for the acquittal is found under CPP Article 530.2.

For a judge to find that an accused has not committed a crime (barring an amnesty, self-defense, lack of mental responsibility, etc.) requires an examination of evidence. Otherwise, for the judge to decide that the accused has not committed the crime, the judge must somehow be a source of "Truth" or communing with some source of absolute knowledge. Perhaps this concept relates to the inquisitorial justice system's foundations in religious courts.
 
I completely disagree with your assumptions and examples.

1. Another person did [confessed to the crime (?)] and said no one else was there.
The problem with this example: the other person's statement may be false - the confession may be false and/or the statement no one else was there may be false.

Well they are called judges because they make judgments.

2. The air-tight alibi may be fraudulent.

Nope. Airtight is airtight. Video from a cash machine 10 miles from the crime site at the time it happened.

3. A similar argument with the witness. Witness identifications are notoriously unreliable.

Whatever. The judge could accept the witness along with other information and say the man was innocent.

It is ridiculous to say it is impossible for a judge to gather enough information to declare someone innocent.
 
Of course a 530.1 would have been nice, but maybe it wasn't possible without dragging the case on for a few more years and unwanted spotlight...

On the "future charges" thing.
There is one thing easily forgotten in all this: the time limit to file a complaint. IIRC the time limit in Italy is 45 days after the publication of the motivations report.
Have we heard of any action taken by the prosecution or the civil parties against M&B by now?

That is true for a judgment that may be appealed, such as one from a first-instance or appeal court.

But no judgment from the CSC may be appealed under Italian law. It is the final domestic court.

Final convictions may be revised under certain circumstances and miscarriages of justice corrected and compensated (CPP Articles 626 - 647; Constitutional Court judgment 113/2011).

A final judgment is one from the CSC or any judgment from a lower court not appealed within the legally-specified time limit.

A final acquittal may not be appealed, and no criminal or civil action may follow a final acquittal for the same offense, for the circumstances of this case, as I outlined in detail in an earlier post.

Unfair convictions may be brought before the ECHR as allegations of violations of the European Convention of Human Rights, but such proceedings are reviews of the actions of the State and its police, prosecutors, and courts. They are not appeals.
 
It's very clear that as much as they definitely acquitted, M/B drew a line in the sand in relation to calunnia. How's that for "sending a message" on an issue perhaps they didn't even need to comment on, as it had been definitely settled at the Chieffi trial - ECHR notwithstanding.

Possibly the ECHR would find the CSC "impertinent"* in the way the calunnia was addressed in the Marasca CSC panel MR. Especially suspect is the CSC making up evidence.

* ECHR actually used this word in relation to a CSC judgment in a case from some years ago. I don't have the reference immediately at hand, but I recall mentioning this in a post responding to Mach over a year ago.
 
No. You are wrong. Article 530 para 2 does NOT say "the accused did not commit the crime".

Why do YOU need to subvert the truth?

It says:

You have distorted my statement and apparently your post reflects a failure to comprehend the Italian laws involved.

The verdict specification of the Marasca CSC panel clearly and explicitly states both that CPP Article 530.2 is invoked, and that the appellants did not commit the act, and that this was done under CPP Article 620 (L), in the annulment without referral of the appealed ruling (from the Nencini court).

CPP Article 620 (L) allows the CSC to take the necessary decisions.

A reasonable person would understand from the verdict and from the procedural laws cited that the CSC found the evidence against the appellants (Knox and Sollecito) severely deficient and concluded that the appellants did not commit the murder/rape. There was no referral because the deficiencies of the evidence was so severe, in the judgment of the CSC, that no further assize court proceedings would be useful.
 
Well they are called judges because they make judgments.



Nope. Airtight is airtight. Video from a cash machine 10 miles from the crime site at the time it happened.



Whatever. The judge could accept the witness along with other information and say the man was innocent.

It is ridiculous to say it is impossible for a judge to gather enough information to declare someone innocent.

But you are arguing that the judge can make that decision without evidence.

CPP Article 530.2 states, in the relevant part, the types of issues with evidence that would allow a judge to acquit. The acquittal necessarily indicates that the person did not commit the crime.

I don't imagine that any of my arguments will convince you to stop your word play; but all that you are doing is playing with words.
 
Be that as it may, Bruno-Marasca do not have the power to change the law (the law here being specifically CPP 530.2). Their wording consequently has no meaning, as the wording of the law has sovereignty over their wording. Nowhere in 530.2 does it include the words, "did not commit the crime", and 530.1 was not mentioned.

A reasonable person, who did not issue post after post of false or erroneous statements, would recognize the meaning of the highlighted words in the following paragraph 2 of CPP Article 530:

2. The judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal also in case of insufficient, contradictory or lacking proof that the criminal act occurred, the accused committed it, the act is deemed an offence by law, the offence was committed by a person with mental capacity.

I repeat them here without the intervening language for clarity:

The judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal in case of insufficient, contradictory or lacking proof that the accused committed it {the criminal act}.
Now, to help anyone who doesn't follow, the above wording means that since there was no proof that the accused committed the criminal act, the accused DID NOT commit the criminal act. This last point is called the presumption of innocence, and is basic to the Italian Constitution and European Convention case-law.
 
You have distorted my statement and apparently your post reflects a failure to comprehend the Italian laws involved.

The verdict specification of the Marasca CSC panel clearly and explicitly states both that CPP Article 530.2 is invoked, and that the appellants did not commit the act, and that this was done under CPP Article 620 (L), in the annulment without referral of the appealed ruling (from the Nencini court).

CPP Article 620 (L) allows the CSC to take the necessary decisions.

A reasonable person would understand from the verdict and from the procedural laws cited that the CSC found the evidence against the appellants (Knox and Sollecito) severely deficient and concluded that the appellants did not commit the murder/rape. There was no referral because the deficiencies of the evidence was so severe, in the judgment of the CSC, that no further assize court proceedings would be useful.

The "failure to comprehend the Italian laws involved" is actually yours and Bruno and Marasca.

It is an oxymoron to say "there is insufficent evidence" and then rule "they did not commit the crime" in the same breath. In law you are not supposed to make statements that contradict each other. If it were a contract it would be repudiated by the fact of a contradiction in terms.

You are letting your bias get in the way of seeing how dreadful the Fifth Chamber reasoning is. It could be, you are so happy the kids were freed, you couldn't care less whether the court's reasoning is sound or not.
 
I think it's a waste of breath to worry about if Italy has or has not exonerated Amanda Knox.

I will read the ECHR decision as a full exoneration (or lack thereof). The entire case hinged on the nov 5 interrogation, without which there would have been no arrest, no case, and no trial.

That will be the end of this case for me, and the judicial decision I pay attention to.
 
The "failure to comprehend the Italian laws involved" is actually yours and Bruno and Marasca.

It is an oxymoron to say "there is insufficent evidence" and then rule "they did not commit the crime" in the same breath. In law you are not supposed to make statements that contradict each other. If it were a contract it would be repudiated by the fact of a contradiction in terms.

You are letting your bias get in the way of seeing how dreadful the Fifth Chamber reasoning is. It could be, you are so happy the kids were freed, you couldn't care less whether the court's reasoning is sound or not.

The court's motives are ambiguous.

You can read them as PIP trying to placate and protect the system.

You can read them as PGP bowing to international pressure and the spectacle of a possibly failed extradition while their own citizen sits in prison.

You can read tea leaves for your future.

Or you can wait for the ECHR and get some real closure.
 
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