Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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You are determined to be obtuse. What does the following para say?

This would have entailed the sweeping away of
[=the complete rejection of] the same expert report but the
Court, presided by Pratillo Hellmann, with Advisor-Recorder
Dr Massimo Zanetti, had ignored the grave error committed by
the experts, an error which had been severely censured by the
Court of Cassation, First Criminal Chamber, in the decision
handed down on 26 March 2013 no. 26455/13


Hello? The "experts" refer to Vecchiotti and Conti, whose very "gravely erroneous report" which had been "severely censured" by the Chieffi Supreme court, formed the basis of Dr Gill's latest paper.

Do try to keep track!
If you want to see obtuse, look in the mirror. The Chieffi court is not in a position to question a scientific report. None of the court are qualified to second guess Gill or Conti and Vechiotti.

And BTW, neither are you.
 
Amanda herself said her earlobe was bleeding and indeed one of her eight (???) earrings looked like it had been ripped off. It could have been a nose bleed from a well-placed blow. Most likely it was from the scratch in the neck.


The state's own ME examined her neck and said the mark wasn't from a wound or anything that broke the skin. Again, it's just a fact she had nowhere to bleed from. She was face-to-face with cops all day every day after the murder. None of them noticed anything, even though it's their job to and they deal with people in fights all the time.

Amanda's new ear piercings would be an innocent explanation for the blood though.
 
You are determined to be obtuse. What does the following para say?

This would have entailed the sweeping away of
[=the complete rejection of] the same expert report but the
Court, presided by Pratillo Hellmann, with Advisor-Recorder
Dr Massimo Zanetti, had ignored the grave error committed by
the experts, an error which had been severely censured by the
Court of Cassation, First Criminal Chamber, in the decision
handed down on 26 March 2013 no. 26455/13


Hello? The "experts" refer to Vecchiotti and Conti, whose very "gravely erroneous report" which had been "severely censured" by the Chieffi Supreme court, formed the basis of Dr Gill's latest paper.

Do try to keep track!

You cannot possibly be this dense. A single statement (without even using their names) referring to the independent court appointed experts does NOT imply Maori is facing corruption charges for "consorting" with C&V. Where, in the document you linked to yourself Vixen, does it say, "Maori is facing charges of corruption for consorting with Conti and Vecchiotti." This cannot be that hard for you. Unless you were lying. Or weren't intelligent enough to understand your own document. Or your own claim, even.

Also, how in the hell does Mignini suing the defense lawyers for defamation equal charges of corruption?

By the way, anyone notice how Vixen adopts the same verbose, ambiguous, nonsense style of writing that the Italian courts use in their formal documents? It's like they are trying to hide some kind of intellectual shortcoming through sheer pompous verbosity.
 
Amanda herself said it was a recent hickey given her by lover boy Raff. It is a police picture. It is entirely bonkers to claim "the police doctored the contrast".

Sheesh.

Oh. My. God.

Does Amanda have a yellow neck Vixen?

Does a hickey equal a huge gaping wound that bled all over the bathroom (yet somehow the police did not notice at the station when interrogating her)?

I know I say you can't possibly be this dense, but....
 
A google search seems to indicate it was Knox's father who said "it was probably a hickey". Not Knox. It was barely even noticable, so clearly not some huge wound from Vixen's proposed vampire manga sex orgy.

I wonder if Vixen lied again?
 
I certainly have a proper translation of 530 which is not cut-and-paste Google Translate.....

1) You are simply wrong in your interpretation of 530.1 and 530.2 (specifically you are wrong in your interpretation of 530.2)

2) Do you know who Luca Cheli is, and what he does for a living?

3) Do you think that any American automatically has the ability to parse and interpret US codes of criminal procedure?

4) Oh and you were - and remain - wrong on Miranda only ever applying to persons who've been arrested (you seem unable or unwilling to understand the concept of being interviewed under caution in a police station....).


But it's simply not worth arguing with you at this point. Have a nice day :D

Oh please kind sir publish the proper translation.

I'm right about both 530 and Miranda and no matter how hard you puff it remains that way.
 
Are all not guilty verdicts exonerations? Simple question. Why would what Mike says matter?


In the broad definition of "exoneration" (and it's a nebulous term with no legal meaning anyhow), yes - all not guilty verdicts are exonerations (but one may choose to use a narrower definition of exoneration as being more akin to a positive finding of innocence).

And that's especially the case in which judicial systems have the concept of the presumption of innocence (which is also an ethically-appropriate position), and the preservation of innocence of those found not guilty in court. In a very real sense, therefore, one can say that a court delivering a not-guilty verdict under such a system is declaring the defendant(s) innocent.

But that's not to say that there cannot be degrees of innocence - even if, judicially and ethically, an overriding view of innocence must apply. And there can always be cases where a cogent argument can be made that an acquitting court got it wrong - though, given the asymmetric nature of the BARD standard and the presumption of innocent, these are extremely rare.

For the former (degrees of innocence), one could make a fair argument that someone against whom there was a fair amount of evidence of guilt but who was (correctly) acquitted on account of a failure to reach the BARD standard was intrinsically less "innocent" than someone against whom not one shred of credible, reliable evidence of guilt was presented at trial. And for the latter (acquitting court getting it wrong), I think it can be successfully argued that the OJ Simpson murder trial court was one of those exceedingly rare examples that simply got it wrong.

On top of all that, one also has to remember that we are only ever talking here about judicial guilt/innocence/exoneration etc. Because at a factual level, a defendant either committed the crime or (s)he did not. There are lots of cases of people who factually committed a crime never being convicted of that offence, and some (but far far fewer) cases of people being convicted of a crime they didn't factually commit.

To bring things back to Knox/Sollecito, I believe it's appropriate to use the term "exoneration" in both its broad and narrow terms. The acquitting court made it clear that there was (and never was, and never will be) any credible, reliable evidence of their participation in the murder. Of course it's still possible (though the evidence - and lack of evidence - very strongly suggests otherwise) that Knox and/or Sollecito actually did participate in the murder - but at a judicial and ethical level there was no way whatsoever that they could or should ever have been found guilty in court (and it's a searing indictment of Italian courts and the whole Italian system that they were ever found guilty at all, not least that it dragged on over so many years and through so many different courts). By contrast, even though it's possible to say that OJ Simpson was exonerated in the broadest sense in his criminal murder trial, it's also possible IMO to make a convincing argument that he was wrongly exonerated.
 
Oh please kind sir publish the proper translation.

I'm right about both 530 and Miranda and no matter how hard you puff it remains that way.


Wow, condescension now as well!

And you've totally dodged the question about whether simply being of a certain nationality gives one some form of automatic ability to correctly interpret that country's criminal codes. Noted.

As I said, I don't want to engage any more with you about this. But it would be interesting if you answered my questions. Not that you have to.
 
I certainly have a proper translation of 530 which is not cut-and-paste Google Translate.....

1) You are simply wrong in your interpretation of 530.1 and 530.2 (specifically you are wrong in your interpretation of 530.2)

2) Do you know who Luca Cheli is, and what he does for a living?

3) Do you think that any American automatically has the ability to parse and interpret US codes of criminal procedure?

4) Oh and you were - and remain - wrong on Miranda only ever applying to persons who've been arrested (you seem unable or unwilling to understand the concept of being interviewed under caution in a police station....).


But it's simply not worth arguing with you at this point. Have a nice day :D

Perhaps you should ask that anyone believing that there is a difference between an acquittal under CPP Article 530.1 and 530.2 in this case, where the specific verdict includes the wording that the accused did not commit the act (crime), what the legal difference in consequence of the 530.2 acquittal is compared to a 530.1 difference. I realize you are well aware that there is no difference in the legal consequences.

I have tried to explain on this forum that there is no such difference in legal consequence, and quoted an excellent English translation of the relevant CPP Articles (which include CPP Articles 629, 648, 649, and 652) but apparently there are those who do not wish to accept this simple concept.

Briefly, CPP Article 648 states that a judgment delivered at trial which is not subject to an appellate remedy, other than revision, is final. Article 629 states that only final convictions may be subject to revision trials.

CPP Article 649 states that a person who has been dismissed (thus including acquitted or time-barred dismissal) by a judgment that has become final may not be tried again for the same offense.

Thus, in terms of criminal action, Knox and Sollecito are fully and finally acquitted on the charges relating to the murder/rape of Kercher and may not be tried again for that offense, even if there were a rewording of the charges.

CPP Article 652 states that the final judgment of acquittal delivered after a trial shall have binding effect on the civil trial conducted during the criminal trial, when the verdict indicates that the accused did not commit the commit the act (crime), or for certain other types of acquittal (such as that the crime did not occur or that the alleged crime was an act of self-defense).

Thus, because the civil action by the Kerchers was brought in parallel (that is, before the same judges at the same time) with the criminal trial, and because the verdict of acquittal is for the reason that the accused did not commit the act, Knox and Sollecito cannot be subject to any similar civil action by the Kerchers in Italy.

There may indeed be a perception by some Italians that there is some difference in an acquittal under CPP Article 530.2 compared to 530.1, but this perception is, as explained by Mitja Gialuz, Professor of Criminal Procedure at the University of Trieste, a carry-over from the transition from the inquisitorial system to the adversarial system, and the gradual introduction and acceptance in Italy of the concept of an accused being judged guilty and convicted after trial only if proven guilty of the alleged offense beyond a reasonable doubt (now encoded in CPP Article 533.1). This wording in Article 533.1 was only adopted in law in 2006; prior to that adoption of BARD, there was more ambiguity in judicial discretion with respect to convictions.

Source: The Italian Code of Criminal Procedure: Critical essays and English translation, ed. M. Gialuz, L. Luparia, and F. Scarpa; Wolters Kluwer Italia (c) 2014.
 
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You cannot possibly be this dense. A single statement (without even using their names) referring to the independent court appointed experts does NOT imply Maori is facing corruption charges for "consorting" with C&V. Where, in the document you linked to yourself Vixen, does it say, "Maori is facing charges of corruption for consorting with Conti and Vecchiotti." This cannot be that hard for you. Unless you were lying. Or weren't intelligent enough to understand your own document. Or your own claim, even.

Also, how in the hell does Mignini suing the defense lawyers for defamation equal charges of corruption?

By the way, anyone notice how Vixen adopts the same verbose, ambiguous, nonsense style of writing that the Italian courts use in their formal documents? It's like they are trying to hide some kind of intellectual shortcoming through sheer pompous verbosity.


Do I really have to take you through it? What does this para say?

the extremely challengeable behaviour of experts who,
beyond having “forgottten” the existence of negative controls,
had been seen by Dr MIGNINI (and, according to what has
been said to him, also by the biologist at Scientific Police
headquarters Dr Patrizia Stefanoni), to be having a long conversation and in a “private” manner, with the defence lawyers of the accused, in particular with Advocate Maori,before the hearing in which the experts were to be examined
and cross-examined had started. This had happened in
particular on two occasions, both in Piazza Matteotti, in front
of the law courts building, one time in front of the main
entrance and a second time, further back, in the direction of
Via Oberdan, while Dr Stefanoni and Dr Comodi had seen them together, amongst the various defence lawyers for the accused, in a bar..



Do let me know if there is anything you are unable to comprehend.
 
Perhaps you should ask that anyone believing that there is a difference between an acquittal under CPP Article 530.1 and 530.2 in this case, where the specific verdict includes the wording is that the accused did not commit the act (crime), what the legal difference in consequence of the 530.2 acquittal is compared to a 530.1 difference. I realize you are well aware that there is no difference in the legal consequences.

I have tried to explain on this site that there is no such difference in legal consequence, and quoted an excellent English translation of the relevant CPP Articles (which include CPP Articles 629, 648, 649, and 652) but apparently there are those who do not wish to accept this simple concept.

Briefly, CPP Article 648 states that a judgment delivered at trial which is not subject to an appellate remedy, other than revision, is final. Article 629 states that only final convictions may be subject to revision trials.

CPP Article 649 states that a person who has been dismissed (thus including acquitted or time-barred dismissal) by a judgment that has become final may not be tried again for the same offense.

Thus, in terms of criminal action, Knox and Sollecito are fully and finally acquitted on the charges relating to the murder/rape of Kercher and may not be tried again for that offense, even if there were a rewording of the charges.

CPP Article 652 states that the final judgment of acquittal delivered after a trial shall have binding effect on the civil trial conducted during the criminal trial, when the verdict indicates that the accused did not commit the commit the act (crime), or for certain other types of acquittal (such as that the crime did not occur or that the alleged crime was an act of self-defense).

Thus, because the civil action by the Kerchers was brought in parallel with the criminal trial, and because the verdict of acquittal is for the reason that the accused did not commit the act, Knox and Sollecito cannot be subject to any similar civil action by the Kerchers in Italy.

There may indeed be a perception by some Italians that there is some difference in an acquittal under CPP Article 530.2 compared to 530.1, but this perception is, as explain by Mitja Gialuz, Professor of Criminal Procedure at the University of Trieste, a carry-over from the transition from the inquisitorial system to the adversarial system, and the gradual introduction and acceptance in Italy of the concept of an accused being judged guilty and convicted after trial only if proven guilty of the alleged offense beyond a reasonable doubt (now encoded in CPP Article 533.1). This wording in Article 533.1 was only adopted in law in 2006; prior to that adoption of BARD, there was more ambiguity in judicial discretion with respect to convictions.

Source: The Italian Code of Criminal Procedure: Critical essays and English translation, ed. M. Gialuz, L. Luparia, and F. Scarpa; Wolters Kluwer Italia (c) 2014.


I know. You're absolutely correct. But there are others here who are too belligerent and stubborn to understand and acknowledge the true situation. And I've now given up trying to debate the matter with such people :)
 
Can someone explain to me why a possibly-vexatious civil lawsuit submission written by a highly vested egomaniac who's feeling increasingly backed into a corner should in any way be viewed as objective or even truthful in any way?

Show me a court ruling and I'll be more receptive. Until then, ya got nada.
 
There may indeed be a perception by some Italians that there is some difference in an acquittal under CPP Article 530.2 compared to 530.1,

there you go - the concurrent civil case is in fact done with the 530.2 verdict which I haven't disputed.

As I have stated the primary effect of a two over a one is to leave doubt.

I don't you or anyone here can be sure the verdict leaves any doors open for civil

You have a couple of 530 translations - post them and save me the time of finding those old posts if you would.
 
Do I really have to take you through it? What does this para say?

the extremely challengeable behaviour of experts who,
beyond having “forgottten” the existence of negative controls,
had been seen by Dr MIGNINI (and, according to what has
been said to him, also by the biologist at Scientific Police
headquarters Dr Patrizia Stefanoni), to be having a long conversation and in a “private” manner, with the defence lawyers of the accused, in particular with Advocate Maori,before the hearing in which the experts were to be examined
and cross-examined had started. This had happened in
particular on two occasions, both in Piazza Matteotti, in front
of the law courts building, one time in front of the main
entrance and a second time, further back, in the direction of
Via Oberdan, while Dr Stefanoni and Dr Comodi had seen them together, amongst the various defence lawyers for the accused, in a bar..



Do let me know if there is anything you are unable to comprehend.

How high (or low) does someone's IQ have to be to not understand the difference between these two statements:

1) Maori is facing charges of corruption for consorting with Conti and Vecchiotti.

2) Maori is being sued by Mignini and his cohorts, and in their long rambling legal document they accuse Maori of having a conversation with Conti and Vecchiotti. In one sentence of a 28 page document.

Perhaps use your analytical skills to connect the dots for me Vixen. I do admit I am having trouble understanding whatever it is you call logic.

Oh, and while you are at it, other articles dated from 2010 mention this lawsuit. So this was more than 6 years ago. What came of this lawsuit Vixen? And how does a lawsuit by Mignini from 2010 or earlier equate to Maori facing charges of corruption currently?

One last question. How lost are you? And does this level of confusion have any negative impact on your membership to Mensa?
 
Please read Amanda's court testimony.

Sure. Link to it for me and tell me what page it is on.

Since 99.99% of your comments are lies or complete befuddlement as to what is going on around you, I am not going to take the time to read through a document on the 0.001% chance you are right this time.
 
Also, does anyone actually understand how this is connected to Dr. Gill and Forensic Science International? I feel like Vixen is avoiding this question for some reason.
 
How high (or low) does someone's IQ have to be to not understand the difference between these two statements:

1) Maori is facing charges of corruption for consorting with Conti and Vecchiotti.

2) Maori is being sued by Mignini and his cohorts, and in their long rambling legal document they accuse Maori of having a conversation with Conti and Vecchiotti. In one sentence of a 28 page document.

Perhaps use your analytical skills to connect the dots for me Vixen. I do admit I am having trouble understanding whatever it is you call logic.

Oh, and while you are at it, other articles dated from 2010 mention this lawsuit. So this was more than 6 years ago. What came of this lawsuit Vixen? And how does a lawsuit by Mignini from 2010 or earlier equate to Maori facing charges of corruption currently?

One last question. How lost are you? And does this level of confusion have any negative impact on your membership to Mensa?

Um, it's dated Perugia, 28 May 2015.

Incidentally, I don't remember sharing my personal data with you.
 
there you go - the concurrent civil case is in fact done with the 530.2 verdict which I haven't disputed.

As I have stated the primary effect of a two over a one is to leave doubt.

I don't you or anyone here can be sure the verdict leaves any doors open for civil

You have a couple of 530 translations - post them and save me the time of finding those old posts if you would.

I have previously posted those translations - from Gialuz et al. - on this forum. They are also available on the IIP Forum, in the Italian Criminal Laws and Procedures thread:

http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3161&sid=2e50b1929ff8c76c6d8c6a2e1a1b6b05
 
Vixen,
You are avoiding the core point. Show me how these two statements are identical:

1) Maori is facing charges of corruption for consorting with Conti and Vecchiotti.

2) Maori is being sued by Mignini and his cohorts, and in their long rambling legal document they accuse Maori of having a conversation with Conti and Vecchiotti. In one sentence of a 28 page document.

I am sure your flawless analytical skills can come up with something.

Just because your document (translation) is dated May 2015 does not mean that is when the lawsuit was filed. I am looking at an article that mentions Mignini's lawsuit against Raf's lawyer and it is dated February 2010. Either we are in a time warp, the date is completely wrong, or Migini has filed multiple lawsuits against the same people for the same thing (hilariously, these are all possibilities in this case).

As to your "personal data", you have posted on this very forum about your membership to Mensa. So you shared it with everyone. I don't know why you brought it up previously, but it seemed pertinent to the discussion since you like to trumpet your analytical skills. I just hope this exchange doesn't harm your membership status, that's all. I'm looking out for you.

Anyway, can you tell me how all this is connected to Dr. Gill and Forensic Science International and your charges of corruption against them, the top forensic science journal in the world? I am sure you are getting around to explaining it, but if you could get on with it that would be great.
 
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