• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Miracle of the Shroud V - Blood and Limestone

Well, I suppose he could be going for history rather than science, where you kinda do get to reconstruct what happened from incomplete and often highly circumstantial evidence.

But do you get to invent what happened based on your distrust of a person who says something different?

Yes, historians infer from limited data. But blood, limestone, and carbon aren't being used here as limited, ambiguous historical records. They're hard science being challenged with nothing more than wishful denial. In this case too, there is no historical record to substantiate a claim to authenticity.
 
CT,
- I don't give direct evidence much weight. It's these other guys who demand direct evidence. Indirect evidence is my forte.

With this contrarian position, I can safely predict that the thread will never end.

ETA.... And the absolute inanity of the statement is astonishing, even for this forum, where inanity is pretty much a given on any day...
 
Last edited:
He thinks he has. He has "papers" from "well-read scholars" that say, among other things, that McCrone was a ninny-head. Since we can't trust McCrone, then this "indirectly" says the shroud must be authentic.

I'm sometimes amazed how far shroud enthusiasts will go to impugn McCrone. Some defend the authenticity of the Vinland Map merely because McCrone found evidence that strongly suggests that is a forgery (there's lots of other evidence that it is a forgery). It's apparently important that he never be right. See here.
 
CT,
- I don't give direct evidence much weight. It's these other guys who demand direct evidence. Indirect evidence is my forte.


I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I have to say that, unless you're trying to be funny (and if so, you're not very good at it, given your history in this forum), this is the stupidest thing I've read in a long while.
 
Last edited:
But do you get to invent what happened based on your distrust of a person who says something different?

Yes, historians infer from limited data. But blood, limestone, and carbon aren't being used here as limited, ambiguous historical records. They're hard science being challenged with nothing more than wishful denial. In this case too, there is no historical record to substantiate a claim to authenticity.

Well, I did say that what he's doing wouldn't cut the mustard even in the historical method, so...
 
CT,
- I don't give direct evidence much weight. It's these other guys who demand direct evidence. Indirect evidence is my forte.

I still can't get over this. It's funny every time it gets quoted.

-Yes, the video shows Mr. Smith clearly visible as he commits the murder.
-But the video also shows him wearing gloves while he does it.
-Everyone with gloves is a suspect.
 
Bringing together a lot of the comments above regarding "direct" and "indirect"....

The wonder of the scientific method is that it tries to remove biases so we have a better chance to understand reality. Jabba calls an eyewitness "direct" evidence and gives it much weight. Yet we have so many examples of experiments proving not only that eyewitnesses can be flat out wrong about occurrence of events, but that we have many, many ways of fooling ourselves. Wasn't there someone who used to be associated with this site who loved to show that with proper controls, many propositions put forth that people were convinced were true were not? Randy? Mandi?
CT,
- I don't give direct evidence much weight. It's these other guys who demand direct evidence. Indirect evidence is my forte.

Give me a minute to be gobsmacked...

Ok - I think I've recovered.

If you consider a physical measurement direct evidence, why would you not give it "considerable" weight? As I mentioned, the scientific method is the one shown to best remove/reduce biases. If I have a physical (direct) method of measurement repeatedly shown to be highly accurate and multiple, independent measures all showing the same particular conclusion, I'd have to have a non-fallacious reason to discount that evidence.

We should all strive to avoid logical fallacies that might bias results. For example: I like you, Jabba, and find you easy to work with. It would be a fallacy, however, to increase the estimated/measured truth of your proposition because you are easy to work with. It would be wrong to say, for example, "you are right because you are easy to work with." If I had logical reasons to believe you, I might say "you are right because of XYZ, and you are easy to work with."

To state it from the other direction,

  • Jabba, you are wrong because you are difficult to work with - LOGICAL FALLACY.
  • Jabba, you are wrong because all evidence is against you and you are difficult to work with. - TRUE STATEMENT

I remain, SlowVehicly yours,

CT
CT,

- Wouldn't it also be good to avoid sarcasm?
- I would argue that for effective debate, it is useful to try to first put the statements by one's opponent in the best possible light (rather than the worst), and find out if that's what they meant...

- In the case above, I rushed to an overstatement.
- I did that because it isn't me putting too much faith in direct evidence. I've admitted over and over again that my ultimate claim rests upon circumstantial evidence.

- And, the negative stuff about McCrone has been offered by a lot of the different researchers and scholars describing the events since 1950 -- Harry Gove being one of them. And, mostly what you get from these different authors is that Walter McCrone (like Hillary Clinton) couldn't (can't) be trusted... I should have elaborated on "difficult to work with."
 
CT,

- Wouldn't it also be good to avoid sarcasm?
- I would argue that for effective debate, it is useful to try to first put the statements by one's opponent in the best possible light (rather than the worst), and find out if that's what they meant...

- In the case above, I rushed to an overstatement.
- I did that because it isn't me putting too much faith in direct evidence. I've admitted over and over again that my ultimate claim rests upon circumstantial evidence.
How about you stop wasting out time with this crap and provide your supposed evidence?

- And, the negative stuff about McCrone has been offered by a lot of the different researchers and scholars describing the events since 1950 -- Harry Gove being one of them. And, mostly what you get from these different authors is that Walter McCrone (like Hillary Clinton) couldn't (can't) be trusted... I should have elaborated on "difficult to work with."
Rubbish. You've repetedly attempted to smear Dr. McCrone because his analysis of the shroud shows it to be a medieval fabrication. Just like all the other evidence.
 
Wouldn't it also be good to avoid sarcasm?

Sarcasm has a place in debate, even reasoned debate. Given your track record, you really shouldn't be trying to school your critics on debate manners.

I would argue that for effective debate, it is useful to try to first put the statements by one's opponent in the best possible light...

Yet you won't delete that abominable blog where you quote only what you want from your opponents' statements. You don't have the high moral ground here, Jabba. Do not lecture others on what constitutes effective debate.

I've admitted over and over again that my ultimate claim rests upon circumstantial evidence.

You don't have circumstantial evidence for authenticity. You have a laundry list of reasons why you think we should ignore the science pointing to a medieval date. You refuse to even discuss the false dilemma. That kinda makes me think you intend to create it.

While you admit you have poor evidence, you refuse to face the consequences of having poor evidence. You admit your evidence is poor, but you still think you should win the debate. You say your "defenses are breached," but a misplaced sense of duty to your father urges you to press on, and you have nothing left but to insinuate your critics haven't played fair.

And, the negative stuff about McCrone has been offered by a lot of the different researchers and scholars describing the events since 1950...
Asked and answered. You presented a list of those "researchers and scholars" and had your head handed to you once again. Instead of insisting that we have to give such gossip more weight because it comes from so many, maybe you should be worried that this is the only kind of evidence your "researchers and scholars" manage to produce.

And, mostly what you get from these different authors is that Walter McCrone (like Hillary Clinton)...

We're not talking about Hilary Clinton. We're talking about Walter McCrone. Don't draw false analogies.

...couldn't (can't) be trusted...

So far we can't trust your "researchers and scholars," and you've admitted as much yourself. Still you've changed horses. Now you switch your argument to "cannot be trusted" because you see how silly "difficult to work with" is starting to sound.

But the problem is that this doesn't matter either. It isn't enough to simply change the color of the aspersion you're casting. If you want to show McCrone's science doesn't have probative value, you have to show that he did engage in malfeasance that did change results. You can't just insinuate it based on this or that personal trait.

And then even that doesn't matter. Even were you able to successfully impeach McCrone or any other scientist, you don't get to conclude "indirectly" that the shroud is authentic. You're wallowing so deep in your false dilemma you can't even seem to see how fruitless even your best efforts along these lines would be.

Yes, I'm telling you that you don't have evidence for authenticity. You can either think carefully about why that is, or you can continue trying to win rhetorical points by hypocritically scolding them for their debate manners.
 
So Jabba's a Republican, along with everything else. Well, he reasons like one.
Or is he Berning w/ righteousnessism? Well, it can only be one or the other, in his rigidly binary cosmos.

Coffee! I got up before breakfast! Help!
 
<snip>
- And, the negative stuff about McCrone has been offered by a lot of the different researchers and scholars describing the events since 1950 -- Harry Gove being one of them. And, mostly what you get from these different authors is that Walter McCrone (like Hillary Clinton) couldn't (can't) be trusted... I should have elaborated on "difficult to work with."

My Dear Mr. Savage:

Your boy invents an ad hoc one-off "qualitative analysis" to serve an assumed consequent, and performs it once, alone, in his kitchen (and, surprise! supports his pre-decided conclusion), and you have the temerity to claim that in your opinion, Dr, McCrone "can't be trusted"? The only reason you committed sidonists think he "can't be trusted" is that he came up with the "wrong" date, just as the 14C dating "can't be trusted" because it returned the "wrong" date.

It is sad to me that this is not transparent to you, as it is to most others on this (these) thread(s).

I wish you light.

I remain luminiferously yours, &ct.
 
CT,

- Wouldn't it also be good to avoid sarcasm?
- I would argue that for effective debate, it is useful to try to first put the statements by one's opponent in the best possible light (rather than the worst), and find out if that's what they meant...

If you had made any effort at effective debate, or whatever kind, people wouldn't use so much sarcasm at your expense.
 
If you had made any effort at effective debate, or whatever kind, people wouldn't use so much sarcasm at your expense.

I don't agree that CrititalThanking was being sarcastic. Nevertheless the fundamental problem is that Jabba has inappropriately reserved the right to say patently risible things and not be laughed at. The forum enforces civility, and rightly so. But statements such as eschewing direct evidence are the intellectual equivalent of walking down the street with one's pants around one's ankles. In that case ridicule is both expected and appropriate.
 
CT,

- Wouldn't it also be good to avoid sarcasm?
- I would argue that for effective debate, it is useful to try to first put the statements by one's opponent in the best possible light (rather than the worst), and find out if that's what they meant...
Please show me where I was being sarcastic. I took you at the best possible light. Your post confirms my examples.

- And, the negative stuff about McCrone has been offered by a lot of the different researchers and scholars describing the events since 1950 -- Harry Gove being one of them. And, mostly what you get from these different authors is that Walter McCrone (like Hillary Clinton) couldn't (can't) be trusted... I should have elaborated on "difficult to work with."
I spent an entire post showing you exactly what did and did not comprise an ad hominem logical fallacy. The person you continue to disparage and how much you trust him have nowt to do with whether or not the science was done correctly. You continue to double down on your logical fallacy.

I again use your words in the example. Nothing in your new verbiage changes the truth or fallaciousness of these statements.
  • Jabba, you are wrong because you can't be trusted, as attested to by multiple people. - LOGICAL FALLACY
  • Jabba, you are wrong because all evidence is against you, and you can't be trusted, as attested to by multiple people. - TRUE STATEMENT

Better?

I do not remain. I was divided into evenly.

CT
 
CT,

- Wouldn't it also be good to avoid sarcasm?
- I would argue that for effective debate, it is useful to try to first put the statements by one's opponent in the best possible light (rather than the worst), and find out if that's what they meant...

- In the case above, I rushed to an overstatement.
- I did that because it isn't me putting too much faith in direct evidence. I've admitted over and over again that my ultimate claim rests upon circumstantial evidence.

- And, the negative stuff about McCrone has been offered by a lot of the different researchers and scholars describing the events since 1950 -- Harry Gove being one of them. And, mostly what you get from these different authors is that Walter McCrone (like Hillary Clinton) couldn't (can't) be trusted... I should have elaborated on "difficult to work with."

Get a grip. You only say that about McCrone because you don't like his conclusions. Don't pretend like you're engaging I honest inquiry. You'd find something nice to say about Hitler if he'd said he thought your rag was authentic.
 
Get a grip. You only say that about McCrone because you don't like his conclusions. Don't pretend like you're engaging I honest inquiry. You'd find something nice to say about Hitler if he'd said he thought your rag was authentic.

Oh dear. You've Godwinned the CIQ. That's indirect inference of something suggestive of a conclusion I'd like to draw in the absence of evidence, but I once heard a guy say something about something he read in a magazine, so it might be true, so therefore my pan overfloweth with an abundance of zeros. And those zeros all up, don't you know...
 
Last edited:
Oh dear. You've Godwinned the CIQ. That's indirect inference of something suggestive of a conclusion I'd like to draw in the absence of evidence, but I once heard a guy say something about something he read in a magazine, so it might be true, so therefore my pan overfloweth with an abundance of zeros. And those zeros all up, don't you know...

Technically, I didn't compare anyone or anything to Hitler or Nazis so it's really not a Godwin.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom