What Children Say

[s4zando]

Deleted. Another time perhaps. Pixel42 is here, after all.

 

[Sunstealer]

Reading this makes me realise, once again, that adults really don't know how much attention kids pay to adult's conversation.

My niece when she was about 3 in the back of her grandfather's car.

Niece: Grumps, are we going on the M4? (M4 is a motorway/freeway/highway)
Grumps: No, we're not going anywhere near that road today.
Niece: Good, cos it's chock-a-block on there.

She had been listening to the traffic report on the radio!

And they understand what you say before they can talk too:

I came downstairs to see my (same) niece before she could talk properly trying to put her shoes on the wrong feet.

Me: Do you want to go outside?
Niece: Nods.
Me: Well I'll take you outside after I've had lunch. I have to have my lunch first.

My niece then grabs hold of my finger, leads me through into the kitchen and then opens the fridge and gets out the milk, cheese, butter, etc and then points to the kettle.

Little monkey was trying to chivvy me up so she could go outside quicker.

 

[marplots]

I write fiction, and once in a while I'll get strangers telling me that I happened to remind them of something in their own lives, without any intent on my part. It's not at all uncommon for a reader to attribute meaning to something that wasn't intentional on the part of the author.

I think I do it to myself when I dream.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Has anyone studied such claims, not just in kids, regarding unusual knowledge claims?

I'm sure a couple of our members are working on this as we speak. "Investigation of Insignificant Stuff Claimed on Chat Forums on the Internet".

But worry not. With the ubiquitous presence of mobile cameras, this stuff will be recorded and verified. (Just as Bigfoot has been proven real as have ET/UFO claims. )

 

[The Atheist]

The linked comments by kids look tame to what my six-year old comes out with.

His friends on Niue (a Pacific island) run the whole world by using their time machine, apparently.

And that's nowhere near the weirdest.

Three weeks ago, we were going fishing and he pipes up with "Today, we're going to catch an octopus!"

I told him that there was no chance of that happening, because there are no octopi anywhere near our fishing spot. My exact words were "I don't know what we might catch, but I can guarantee we won't catch an octopus."

After half an hour, I brought my line in, thinking it was tangled with weed, because it was heavy but no pull. Unbelievably, it was an octopus. This is a spot I've been fishing & diving at for 50 years and have never seen one before. The ground isn't conducive to octopi, with no cover anywhere.

You can only guess how smug he was.

He's been fishing lots and is used to catching a wide variety of fish, and the only time he's ever seem an octopus was at an aquarium when he was four. He usually tells us he's going to catch kahawai of snapper - the two main species we target.

 

[Alisa]

Welcome to the forum, Alisa.

Are you aware of cognitive biases such as confirmation bias? The reason I ask is because they make it surprisingly easy for us to inadvertently fool ourselves into thinking we see meaningful patterns and correlations which aren't really there. If you're interested in exploring this possibility, here are some useful introductory articles:

I see what you mean. I suppose it's possible that I read into things I've seen or heard. I do have a strong belief in past lives and reincarnation, so yes, totally possible.

 

[Alisa]

You then explained how you reacted to his comment, why did you react in the following way?

I didn't react. I had my own thoughts about it, but as a teacher, you simply can't influence a child's learning journey with your personal beliefs. That wouldn't be professional. I left at that and merely observed his responses.

to what do you attribute his behavior?

I believe he was having a past life memory that bothered him.

What similarities were attributed?

Both children spoke about a past life experience. Isn't that in line with the article that was posted?

Please tell me what that "something" means, to you. Thanks in advance.

I believe in past lives and reincarnation, that would be the something I was referring to.

 

[Alisa]

I'm sure a couple of our members are working on this as we speak. "Investigation of Insignificant Stuff Claimed on Chat Forums on the Internet".

But worry not. With the ubiquitous presence of mobile cameras, this stuff will be recorded and verified. (Just as Bigfoot has been proven real as have ET/UFO claims. )

Funny you should say that! There's a documentary on Youtube, I'm too new to post URL's but it's called 'The Boy who lived before', it's quite interesting to watch.

 

[Pixel42]

I see what you mean. I suppose it's possible that I read into things I've seen or heard.

That's very open minded of you.

I do have a strong belief in past lives and reincarnation, so yes, totally possible.

On what do you base that belief?

The child in the video could easily have seen a documentary about Barra on TV at an early age. Kids often take in far more than adults realise. Googling Barra documentary found this:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0996476/

which might well be the culprit.

As long as a plausible mundane explanation is available for such stories, a sceptic sees no need to seriously consider a more exotic one.

ETA: link to, and description of, video referred to by Alisa:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoCgqexJoFQ

Ever since he was two years old and first started talking, Cameron Macauley has told of his life on the island of Barra. Cameron lives with his mum, Norma, in Glasgow. They have never been to Barra. He tells of a white house, overlooking the sea and the beach, where he would play with his brothers and sisters. He tells of the airplanes that used to land on the beach. He talks about his dog, a black and white dog.

Barra lies off the western coast of Scotland, 220 miles from Glasgow. It can only be reached by a lengthy sea journey or an hour long flight. It is a, distant, outpost of the British Isles and is home to just over a thousand people.

Cameron is now five, and his story has never wavered. He talks incessantly about his Barra family, his Barra mum and Barra dad. His Barra dad he explains was called Shane Robertson and he died when he was knocked down by a car.

He has become so preoccupied with Barra and is missing his Barra mum so badly that he is now suffering from genuine distress.

Norma considers herself to be open-minded, and would like to find out if there is any rational explanation for Cameron's memories and beliefs that he was previously a member of another family on Barra. Her first port of call is Dr. Chris French, a psychologist who edits The Skeptic magazine which debunks paranormal phenomena.

Not surprisingly, he discounts any talk of reincarnation mooting that a child's over-active imagination can be fed by the multitude of television programmes available and the easy access to the Web. Norma is not convinced, she does not believe that Cameron has ever watched programmes that could have provided this information.

Norma's next step is a visit to Karen Majors, an educational psychologist whose speciality is children and their fantasy lives. She considers that Cameron's accounts are very different to normal childhood imaginary friends.

It has become clear to Norma that there are no easy answers to the questions thrown up by Cameron's memories. Cameron has asked, persistently, to be taken to Barra. Norma has finally decided to make that journey.

I only watched the first few minutes as it's a channel 5 documentary, which are always too sensationalist for my taste.

Here's the description of O Ye Barra from the above imdb link

The Isle of Barra, situated at Southwestern tip of Hebrides, is an isolated place with a mysterious magnetism. The film depicts everyday life on this remote island where traditional tasks such as fishing and crafting are carried out. We are captured by the fairy tales and the Celtic folklore of Barra, and the dreamlike beauty of the landscape. The recurrence of symbols, colors and signs have given a poetic quality to this impressionistic documentary film.

It's a short documentary (26 minutes), made in 1996.

 

[Alisa]

That's very open minded of you.


On what do you base that belief?

The child in the video could easily have seen a documentary about Barra on TV at an early age. Kids often take in far more than adults realise. Googling Barra documentary found this:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0996476/

which might well be the culprit.

As long as a plausible mundane explanation is available for such stories, a sceptic sees no need to seriously consider a more exotic one.

ETA: link to, and description of, video referred to by Alisa:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoCgqexJoFQ



I only watched the first few minutes as it's a channel 5 documentary, which are always too sensationalist for my taste.

Here's the description of O Ye Barra from the above imdb link



It's a short documentary (26 minutes), made in 1996.

I've always been inclined to look into occult type things. Fascination with dreams, regression and even tarot. I've personally been regressed twice and performed or witnessed several other regressions. .. adults only to be clear! Not on the kids! My own regressions were hazy but felt real and other regressions I've facilitated or witnessed have been very real and detailed. I'm thoroughly convinced that past lives, the spirit world, and reincarnation are real things. I've also held and participated in several séances and dumb suppers.

Having said that, I'm very skeptical about people who profess to be psychic, clairevoyant, or in some way spiritually gifted. I sort of run on instinct.

You may be right about your assumption regarding the boy from Barra, I think it was real for him though. I have a friend whose very young daughter regularly recalls things that indicate she's a reincarnation of a deceased sibling. She's Catholic so it's a bit of a difficult thing for her to accept. She certainly doesn't want to believe it's true but it keeps happening and she can't deny it.

 

[Pixel42]

I've always been inclined to look into occult type things. Fascination with dreams, regression and even tarot. I've personally been regressed twice and performed or witnessed several other regressions. .. adults only to be clear! Not on the kids! My own regressions were hazy but felt real and other regressions I've facilitated or witnessed have been very real and detailed. I'm thoroughly convinced that past lives, the spirit world, and reincarnation are real things. I've also held and participated in several séances and dumb suppers.

Dumb supper?

Before I could be convinced of the reality of such things I would first need to eliminate all plausible mundane explanations of such experiences. Knowing how easily we can be fooled by our fallible perceptions, malleable memories and cognitive biases, I would want to use the scientific method (which was specifically invented to eliminate those confounding factors) to investigate such claims. When dealing with anecdotal evidence that's often not possible, so looking for plausible alternative explanations which take these factors into account is often the best that can be done. As long as such explanations exist there is no good reason to assume a paranormal one.

So far I have seen no claims for past lives, the spirit world or reincarnation that can't be adequately explained by well known and well understood psychological factors. I'm always ready to look at any new ones, though.

Having said that, I'm very skeptical about people who profess to be psychic, clairevoyant, or in some way spiritually gifted. I sort of run on instinct.

It's my experience that in most cases such people are fooling themselves as much as they are fooling their clients, though of course there are a few (particularly amongst the best known ones) who are deliberately scamming using techniques mostly 'borrowed' from stage magicians. I trust you are already aware of cold reading, warm reading and hot reading? If not, do look them up.

You may be right about your assumption regarding the boy from Barra, I think it was real for him though.

I'm inclined to agree. If it was that impressionistic documentary he saw at a very young age it may have been incorporated into his memory so fully that it's indistinguishable from a genuine memory.

I have a friend whose very young daughter regularly recalls things that indicate she's a reincarnation of a deceased sibling. She's Catholic so it's a bit of a difficult thing for her to accept. She certainly doesn't want to believe it's true but it keeps happening and she can't deny it.

There is no good reason to either deny it or take it as evidence of reincarnation. It only needs a few overheard conversations to explain it.

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

Dumb supper?

I will venture that a "dumb supper" is a "dîner de cons", a dinner for schmucks. You invite an idiot for supper and let them talk. If you bring the most entertaining idiot, you win.

 

[Armitage72]

I will venture that a "dumb supper" is a "dîner de cons", a dinner for schmucks. You invite an idiot for supper and let them talk. If you bring the most entertaining idiot, you win.

I didn't click on any of the links, but the results of a Google search say "The Dumb Supper is an ancient tradition where the dead attend the living for a magical night of communion" and "This was known as a “Dumb Supper” where nobody spoke at the table while they awaited the return of their loved ones who had crossed over".

 

[Ron Swanson]

I will venture that a "dumb supper" is a "dîner de cons", a dinner for schmucks. You invite an idiot for supper and let them talk. If you bring the most entertaining idiot, you win.

And you deliver it up to the dinning room in a Dumb Waiter?

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

I didn't click on any of the links, but the results of a Google search say "The Dumb Supper is an ancient tradition where the dead attend the living for a magical night of communion" and "This was known as a “Dumb Supper” where nobody spoke at the table while they awaited the return of their loved ones who had crossed over".

I understand that the reference I made is ridiculous in this context. I love the movie (Le dîner de cons) and jumped right on it. I forgot to look up the actual meaning of dumb supper, though, so thanks for that. ☻

 

[Alisa]

Before I could be convinced of the reality of such things I would first need to eliminate all plausible mundane explanations of such experiences. Knowing how easily we can be fooled by our fallible perceptions, malleable memories and cognitive biases, I would want to use the scientific method (which was specifically invented to eliminate those confounding factors) to investigate such claims. When dealing with anecdotal evidence that's often not possible, so looking for plausible alternative explanations which take these factors into account is often the best that can be done. As long as such explanations exist there is no good reason to assume a paranormal one.

Makes sense, if I was a little more skeptical of these things I would adopt the same attitude, ad I do when it's someone I don't trust. I wouldn't be involved with anything spiritual with someone I don't trust though.

So far I have seen no claims for past lives, the spirit world or reincarnation that can't be adequately explained by well known and well understood psychological factors. I'm always ready to look at any new ones, though.

There's a book called Journey of Souls by Michael Newton, very interesting read, especially his personal journey while writing it.

It's my experience that in most cases such people are fooling themselves as much as they are fooling their clients, though of course there are a few (particularly amongst the best known ones) who are deliberately scamming using techniques mostly 'borrowed' from stage magicians. I trust you are already aware of cold reading, warm reading and hot reading? If not, do look them up.

Yes, have you seen Derren Brown's Messiah movie? He's really good at exposing this stuff. I think it's fairly transparent when someone isn't authentic though. I've been for 'readings' with someone who is a scam artist. There's one in South Africa, he draws pictures of 'your spirit guide' which inevitably turns out to be a French nun or American Indian. Almost every time, but people flock to him and he's booked months in advance! There are psychic fairs in Joburg all the time and I can't tell you how many of these people market themselves there.

There is no good reason to either deny it or take it as evidence of reincarnation. It only needs a few overheard conversations to explain it.

Can't argue with that. I suppose it all boils down to what you feel in your gut when it comes to these things.

 

[Pixel42]

There's a book called Journey of Souls by Michael Newton, very interesting read, especially his personal journey while writing it.

Anyone can write a book. Anyone can be honestly mistaken. Anyone can think they see signals where there is really only noise. It's scientific evidence I would need to be convinced. That means carefully and methodically eliminating the effects of our fallible perceptions, malleable memories and cognitive biases and demonstrating that there is something left which still requires explanation. None of the hypnotists who claim to be able to regress people to past lives appear to have even attempted to do this. I've not read the particular book you recommend, does Newton? I've just read this excerpt from the book, I have to say it appears to be pure tosh.

Here's a short article on past life regression, written from a sceptical point of view and with useful links for further reading:

http://skepdic.com/pastlife.html

Can't argue with that. I suppose it all boils down to what you feel in your gut when it comes to these things.

Unfortunately your gut is not a reliable guide when it comes to determining whether patterns and correlations you think you see are really there. That's why the scientific method had to be invented.

 

[angrysoba]

Reading this makes me realise, once again, that adults really don't know how much attention kids pay to adult's conversation.

This is true. One day my nephew said to me "You and Grandad are always arguing!"

This was amazing because while it is true to some extent (we actually "discuss" things "emphatically" because his politics are evil and mine are good), we are always careful not to do it in front of him but rather when he is sleeping or upstairs, or in the garden or the next room where he can't see us. And other relatives don't bring these things up in front of him except when they distract him like the time they bought him an eclair in a cafe shop and my sisters talked about how we always argued - except, as I told you, we don't.

Then would you believe it? While playing Scrabble one day I made the remark that we are just playing for fun but SOME people play this game far too seriously. "Yeah, like Grandad!" He suddenly said. Ha ha! That's exactly who I was thinking of. "Yeah, grandad is always taking this game far too seriously isn't he!" And just when I thought we could get into a great session of slagging off Granddad behind his back and poisoning the mind of his beloved grandson, what did my nephew say? He looked at me and said "You and Grandad are always arguing!"

Well, I never! Out of the mouth of babes! And how would he know that? My working theory is that he was my aunt Pam in a past life. She died from smoking but she was definitely in the room when my dad and I discussed why he was such a believer in evil politics. There are no other plausible explanations.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

There was quite an interesting case here in Toronto some years back (I think it will take a fair bit-O'Google which I may do if I find time). An adult male became firmly convinced he was the reincarnation of an RAF (or possibly it was a RCAF pilot) who had been killed in WW2. He could recall names, squadron details, places, military equipment and jargon and etc, etc. So he did the obvious thing (sort of like in Isle of Barra case actually visiting the island) and went to England to find out. Nothing was true -- the squadron did not even exist, there was no airfield, no such person.

Somewhere, somehow his mind had confabulated the entire story. All it requires is some exposure to some source (a book, movie or radio or TV show) and a good, possibly, unconscious imagination.