Creationist argument about DNA and information

Well this isn't a Null Hypothesis (lol) so it's not my job to falsify it, "YOU" have to VALIDATE IT....whereby Falsifying the Default Position: The NULL Hypothesis...

Nature/Natural Law CAN NOT create Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING schemes.






Lets see THE TEST...? Highlight The Independent and Dependent Variables for us...?





And Anna Nicole could have married for Love and had Pol Pot as her Florist.




Really?? Well, SHOW...

1. Functional DNA/RNA/Proteins NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.
It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE.
That's just the Hardware!

To refute, Please show a Functional 30 mer- RNA or Protein (most are 250 AA or larger) that formed spontaneously "Outside" a Cell/Living Organism, CITE SOURCE! The smallest "Functional" DNA (Genome) is a little over 100,000 Nucleotides... so that ain't happenin !

Conclusion from the Grand Poobah's of OOL Research...

"We conclude that the direct synthesis of the nucleosides or nucleotides from prebiotic precursors in reasonable yield and unaccompanied by larger amounts of related molecules could not be achieved by presently known chemical reactions."
Gerald F. Joyce, and Leslie E. Orgel, "Prospects for Understanding the Origin of the RNA World," p. 18 The RNA World, R.F. Gesteland and J.F. Atkins, eds. Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press, 1993.

Then the WOOLLY Mammoth in the Room...

2. How Did Stupid Atoms Write Their Own Software....? In other words, show how Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules can Author Technical Instruction Manuals/Blueprints...?





Well isn't it the Acme of foolishness to even attempt to provide evidence for the Absence of Something (Argument from Complete Ignorance)?? Your appeal here is Non-Sequitur, on Steroids.





It's "INFORMATION"... informs or instructs; the basis of all communication. It's neither Matter or Energy; it's Semiotic.





Fractals aren't CODES. Codes communicate MESSAGES/instructions . Do fractals send you messages?? Please post the medium and the messages they send you...?

CODES:
"We repeatedly consider the following scenario: a sender (say, A) wants to communicate or transmit some information to a receiver (say, B). The information to be transmitted is an element from some set X . It will be communicated by sending a binary string, called the message. When B receives the message, he can decode it again and (hopefully) reconstruct the element of X that was sent. To achieve this, A and B NEED TO AGREE on a code or description method BEFORE communicating." {emphasis mine]
Grunwald, P., Vitanyi, P ; Algorithmic Information Theory; p. 10, 14 Sept 2005
http://www.illc.uva.nl/HPI/Algorithmic_Complexity.pdf




Snowflakes send you messages/instructions also?





We're not discussing mere "order" here, we're talking about Functional Sequence/Specified Complexity...

There are 3 Types of Complexity 1) random sequence complexity (RSC), 2) ordered sequence complexity (OSC), or 3) Functional Sequence Complexity (FSC)."

Random (RSC): fgskztosbclgdsk.
Order (OSC): hhhhhhdddddduuuuuu: Crystals, Snow Flakes, Sand Dunes, Fractals.

Functional Sequence Complexity (FSC): "It Puts The Lotion in the Basket", Sand Castles, The Genetic CODE, Barbecue Grills, Indy Cars, Hyper-NanoTech Machines and Robots (Kinesin, ATP Synthase, Flagellum, Cilia....ad nauseam) et al.

So RSC and OSC = "Nature" construct, "Shannon Information".

FSC = Intelligent Design Construct.

"In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity"
Leslie E. Orgel, The Origins of Life: Molecules and Natural Selection, pg. 189 (Chapman & Hall: London, 1973

There is no objective meaning to the term 'default hypothesis'. Defaults are arbitrary choices that vary with the risks that the investigator is willing to tolerate.

There is no physical state corresponding to a default hypothesis. Engineers and scientists never refer to 'default hypotheses'. Engineers, physicists and chemists working with statistics use hypothesis testing, where no default exists. When one actually uses hypothesis testing, one has to decide on the risk levels. There is no a priori reason that a null hypothesis entails any more risk than a positive hypothesis.

Hypothesis testing requires one to choose the hypothesis one wants to test in terms of the penalties one is willing to incur. No one has to falsify a hypothesis that you and you alone decided was a 'default' hypothesis. What you decide is a default hypothesis may be what someone else decides is the least likely hypothesis.

An engineer has to decide on a risk level for both a hypothesis and the converse of the hypothesis. One worry about false positives and false alarms. You can't make any contingency less risky merely by calling it a default.

There is no priority of a null hypothesis over a positive hypothesis, also. In statistics, they have equal a priori validity. A hypothesis stated as a null is no more a default than a hypothesis stated as positive.

Your use of the word 'default' is disingenuous. No one is at fault if he does not agree with you. There is no 'default hypothesis. If there was a default hypothesis, then it requires someone to be at fault. It is not God's fault if He doesn't exist. His existence is just a hypothesis.

There are only false alarms and false positives in hypothesis testing. I would argue that the very word default implies an intelligent designer. You had to hypothesize the existence of an intelligent designer before you used the word default.

Since any positive hypothesis can be expressed as a null hypothesis, there is no way to unambiguously distinguish them. You can put multiple negatives in any statement, converting them from one to the other. Hence, the 'default' is subjective. Any subject can make an arbitrary decision on what the null hypothesis is merely by stacking the negative statements.

Please cite us any statistician anywhere or any when who has used the concept of a default hypothesis. I don't think any scientist anywhere has ever used the phrase default hypothesis.

It is not our fault that there is no default! ;)

And actually, it is the defects in crystals that actually contain the 'code'. Crystal defects often have a very complex structure. The code in a snowflake is the sequence of non repeating structures that grow out from the center of the snowflake.

Speaking of defaults, let us look at the faults in crystals.

When one bombards a single crystal with nuclear radiation, the first defects are point defects. Annealing at finite temperature causes these defects to collect in highly complex structures including spirals and slip planes. I studied the 'evolution' of radiation defects a long time ago. Nonlinear interactions makes the precise sequence of atoms in a complex defect impossible to predict precisely. However, determinist laws of physics are 'guiding' every step.

Defects evolve from one form to another. This is am evolution that you should to research.
 
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Yea, especially when you just used it to write this sentence and every sentence you ever wrote or read or will ever write or read.

I did? But all I can see that I used was matter and energy.

Sure. Information--- informs and/or instructs, it's the basis of all communication; it's neither matter or energy; it's Semiotic. It's the sine qua non of LIFE: SEE " DNA ".
It is only ever ever ever sourced by Intelligent Agency, without Exception!!!

Good?

Not good. I mean, you are making a lot of assertions about what information is supposed to do, but all I wanted was to be shown information - naked on the slab, so to speak. So far, I'm just hearing about some conceptual thing, not a real thing.

We could try it another way. How is it that information, which isn't made of matter and energy, interacts with things that are? Or maybe it doesn't? I await your elucidation.
 
There is no objective meaning to the term 'default hypothesis'.


I said "Default Position"...

The term "null hypothesis" usually refers to a general statement or default position that there is no relationship between two measured phenomena, or no difference among groups.
Everitt, Brian (1998). The Cambridge Dictionary of Statistics. Cambridge, UK New York: Cambridge University Press.


There is no priority of a null hypothesis over a positive hypothesis, also. In statistics, they have equal a priori validity. A hypothesis stated as a null is no more a default than a hypothesis stated as positive.


oh brother.


Since any positive hypothesis can be expressed as a null hypothesis, there is no way to unambiguously distinguish them.


How bout with the term "NOT"? :rolleyes:


Please cite us any statistician anywhere or any when who has used the concept of a default hypothesis. I don't think any scientist anywhere has ever used the phrase default hypothesis.


Here's another one...

"To do a hypothesis test, you will actual have two hypotheses: the null hypothesis and the alternative hypothesis, which are stated in such a way that they are mutually exclusive (you can’t have both hypotheses be true). The null hypothesis is the conclusion that is considered the default – you will accept this hypothesis if you fail to find sufficient support for the alternative hypothesis."
www.csun.edu/.../ECON309lect7B...


And actually, it is the defects in crystals that actually contain the 'code'. Crystal defects often have a very complex structure. The code in a snowflake is the sequence of non repeating structures that grow out from the center of the snowflake.


1. Straw Man Fallacy: I've already IMPLODED this In TOTO in my last post. You seemed to lose focus with "Default". :boggled: Which just got PUMMELED!!

2. Post the Snowflake CODE....? rotflol


When one bombards a single crystal with nuclear radiation, the first defects are point defects. Annealing at finite temperature causes these defects to collect in highly complex structures including spirals and slip planes.


Straw Man Fallacy: This is mere complexity NOT Functional Sequence/Specified Complexity. (SEE: Last post)



I studied the 'evolution' of radiation defects a long time ago. Nonlinear interactions makes the precise sequence of atoms in a complex defect impossible to predict precisely. However, determinist laws of physics are 'guiding' every step.


1. Riveting

2. "evolution", what's that?? Please post the Scientific Theory of evolution...?




You quoted my entire post and skipped 99% of it, so....
Darwin123: "[Nature/Natural Law] can create Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING schemes."

Lets see THE TEST...? Highlight The Independent and Dependent Variables for us...?

Darwin123: "life emerged on earth by unguided processes."

Really?? Well, SHOW...

1. Functional DNA/RNA/Proteins NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.
It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE.
That's just the Hardware!

To refute, Please show a Functional 30 mer- RNA or Protein (most are 250 AA or larger) that formed spontaneously "Outside" a Cell/Living Organism, CITE SOURCE! The smallest "Functional" DNA (Genome) is a little over 100,000 Nucleotides... so that ain't happenin !

Conclusion from the Grand Poobah's of OOL Research...

"We conclude that the direct synthesis of the nucleosides or nucleotides from prebiotic precursors in reasonable yield and unaccompanied by larger amounts of related molecules could not be achieved by presently known chemical reactions."
Gerald F. Joyce, and Leslie E. Orgel, "Prospects for Understanding the Origin of the RNA World," p. 18 The RNA World, R.F. Gesteland and J.F. Atkins, eds. Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press, 1993.

Then the WOOLLY Mammoth in the Room...

2. How Did Stupid Atoms Write Their Own Software....? In other words, show how Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules can Author Technical Instruction Manuals/Blueprints...?


Darwin123: "The shape of any fractal structure can be interpreted as a code."

Fractals aren't CODES. Codes communicate MESSAGES/instructions . Do fractals send you messages?? Please post the medium and the messages they send you...?

So anytime you're ready....?


regards
 
I did? But all I can see that I used was matter and energy.


That's "The Medium" lol.


Not good. I mean, you are making a lot of assertions about what information is supposed to do, but all I wanted was to be shown information


Ya see this sentence you just wrote?? ...it contains INFORMATION, for goodness sakes. Information is Semiotic.


We could try it another way. How is it that information, which isn't made of matter and energy, interacts with things that are?


"Information is stimuli that has meaning in some context for its receiver."
http://searchsqlserver.techtarget.com/definition/information


regards
 
That's "The Medium" lol.

Ya see this sentence you just wrote?? ...it contains INFORMATION, for goodness sakes. Information is Semiotic.

You keep saying that things "contain" or "have" information, but you can't seem to point at it directly. Further, a changing the information always seems bound to a material or energetic change. If "information" (whatever it is) is a property of matter and energy, I see no particular reason it wouldn't also follow the usual suite of natural laws.

At this juncture it seems you want to categorize "information" as conceptual only - a manner of speaking - in the way I might say "handsomeness" isn't matter, nor energy, but something I recognize in young men, a property of young men. I would never assert that "handsomeness" exists independently of some embodiment, some physical object, yet you seem to think otherwise for "information."

"Information is stimuli that has meaning in some context for its receiver."
http://searchsqlserver.techtarget.com/definition/information

Well that throws a monkey wrench into the mix. "Stimuli" is most definitely a matter-energy thing, subject to natural laws.

ETA: Wiki has this bit. Do you agree with it? "At its most fundamental, information is any propagation of cause and effect within a system."
 
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I said "Default Position"...

The term "null hypothesis" usually refers to a general statement or default position that there is no relationship between two measured phenomena, or no difference among groups.
Everitt, Brian (1998). The Cambridge Dictionary of Statistics. Cambridge, UK New York: Cambridge University Press.





oh brother.





How bout with the term "NOT"? :rolleyes:





Here's another one...

"To do a hypothesis test, you will actual have two hypotheses: the null hypothesis and the alternative hypothesis, which are stated in such a way that they are mutually exclusive (you can’t have both hypotheses be true). The null hypothesis is the conclusion that is considered the default – you will accept this hypothesis if you fail to find sufficient support for the alternative hypothesis."
www.csun.edu/.../ECON309lect7B...





1. Straw Man Fallacy: I've already IMPLODED this In TOTO in my last post. You seemed to lose focus with "Default". :boggled: Which just got PUMMELED!!

2. Post the Snowflake CODE....? rotflol





Straw Man Fallacy: This is mere complexity NOT Functional Sequence/Specified Complexity. (SEE: Last post)






1. Riveting

2. "evolution", what's that?? Please post the Scientific Theory of evolution...?




You quoted my entire post and skipped 99% of it, so....
Darwin123: "[Nature/Natural Law] can create Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING schemes."

Lets see THE TEST...? Highlight The Independent and Dependent Variables for us...?

Darwin123: "life emerged on earth by unguided processes."

Really?? Well, SHOW...

1. Functional DNA/RNA/Proteins NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.
It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE.
That's just the Hardware!

To refute, Please show a Functional 30 mer- RNA or Protein (most are 250 AA or larger) that formed spontaneously "Outside" a Cell/Living Organism, CITE SOURCE! The smallest "Functional" DNA (Genome) is a little over 100,000 Nucleotides... so that ain't happenin !

Conclusion from the Grand Poobah's of OOL Research...

"We conclude that the direct synthesis of the nucleosides or nucleotides from prebiotic precursors in reasonable yield and unaccompanied by larger amounts of related molecules could not be achieved by presently known chemical reactions."
Gerald F. Joyce, and Leslie E. Orgel, "Prospects for Understanding the Origin of the RNA World," p. 18 The RNA World, R.F. Gesteland and J.F. Atkins, eds. Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press, 1993.

Then the WOOLLY Mammoth in the Room...

2. How Did Stupid Atoms Write Their Own Software....? In other words, show how Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules can Author Technical Instruction Manuals/Blueprints...?


Darwin123: "The shape of any fractal structure can be interpreted as a code."

Fractals aren't CODES. Codes communicate MESSAGES/instructions . Do fractals send you messages?? Please post the medium and the messages they send you...?

So anytime you're ready....?


regards



My null hypothesis is that there is no such thing as an intelligent designer that doesn't have a fully working cybernetic code that functions to translate a cybernetic process. In other words, I hypothesize that there is no intelligence that exists independent of energy and matter.

If this hypothesis is correct, then the ribosome could not be designed. There could be no spirit that creates life since to design anything the spirit would need to already have a cybernetic process. If there really is a God that has created life, he too would have to have a cybernetic process that codes and decodes messages.

The code that you are talking about is in the ribosome. It is the ribosome that takes the RNA code and makes a protein from it. In other words, one needs a ribosome to design a ribosome. Humans are able to design computers with cybernetic processes only because they are born with cybernetic processes in them.

To falsify this null hypothesis, you have to demonstrate the existence of an intelligent anything that doesn't have a code or decoding structure. Since every organism known has DNA, RNA and a ribosome with a genetic code, the current organisms don't falsify the hypothesis. However, the original Intelligent Designer would have to have a will that is entirely free of any physical matrix.

To illustrate this hypothesis, consider the Creation story in Genesis. You may not believe in the story literally, but you seem to accept the notion of a God that created life. God said let there be light, and there was light. God blew, literally blew, on a patch of soil that became alive.


I hypothesize that there is no intelligent entity that can speak without already having a DNA analogue, an RNA analog and a ribosome analog. I also hypothesize that one could not create such a code and decoding system by merely speaking. If there was an entity that could create life just by speaking, it would be very evident right now. So far as I know, no organism can speak without a physical brain.

There could not be a God that created living things since to design anything, one needs DNA, RNA and a working ribosome. I do not accept as likely the existence of any self aware entity that does not have a physical brain with a cybernetic process.

Although this world has many designers capable of constructing a machine that codes and decodes, I have never met one that doesn't already have a ribosomes in it. I have not seen any convincing proof in ghosts, demons, angels and gods that are capable of thought without a physical nervous system. Every repeatable experiment in this world has involved intelligent beings with a physical brain doing the thinking. A physical brain needs a genetic code.


I consider it more likely that a cybernetic code can emerge from unguided processes than that there could be intelligent design without some type of cybernetic code. However, you can falsify this merely by showing me an intelligent designer that has no genetic code.

The only example of intelligent design that can be observed is the design of human beings and some animals. Every one of these organisms has in their cells a ribosome that translates RNA to protein, and organelles that transcribe DNA code to RNA. There isn't one example that you can present of a cybernetic process as you describe it was created by a spirit without a physical organic body.

In order to falsify this hypothesis, you have to demonstrate that some intelligent designer exists without a physical body. I say there is no such designer. You ask me to show an unguided process that produces a code. Now I am asking for a guided process that doesn't use a code.

There is no self aware will that merely speaks other self aware entities into existence. Speaking can involve vocal cords, a brain, and lungs. It can involve hands, facial expressions and a brain. However, all these organs require the genetic code. In order to design a genetic code, the designer has to have a genetic code. Therefore, the first genetic code could not be designed.

Among all the intelligent creatures that you know, is there even one who doesn't have a genetic code in their cells? How do you know that the genetic code had to be designed when all intelligent creatures that you know already have a genetic code?
 
1. Functional DNA/RNA/Proteins NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.
It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE.
Really? Please tell us which of the laws of physics as they are currently understood are broken.
 
Late to this thread, and am having difficulty following what you're written, Daniel. So, apologies if some of my questions have already been addressed (if so, would you mind pointing me to the posts in which the answers may be found?)

To me, it seems you are using a lot of words/terms, with very particular meanings which are either not well-understood by other readers or poorly defined.

Take this, for example:
<snip>

Nature/Natural Law causation CAN NOT create Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING Schemes.

<snip>

What do you mean by "Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING Schemes"? Please be as detailed and specific as you can.

This seems to refer to something that people who study computer science (CS) would be familiar with; is that so (as far as you know)? If so, would you please quote a good definition from a reliable CS source?

Here's another example:
<snip>

1. Functional DNA/RNA/Proteins NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.
It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE.

<snip>

I may be mistaken, but I thought I read about some experiments which did, in fact, produce one/some protein(s) "spontaneously" "outside already existing cells", but I may be mis-remembering (can any other reader help please?)

In any case, what is the basis for your "It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE" claim?

Also, why pick on the formation of functional (what does this mean, by the way?) DNA/RNA/Proteins? Why is/should this be different from the formation of 'neutronium' inside a neutron star (say)?
 
I may be mistaken, but I thought I read about some experiments which did, in fact, produce one/some protein(s) "spontaneously" "outside already existing cells", but I may be mis-remembering (can any other reader help please?)

I believe those tests produced amino acids but stopped short of producing full proteins. The Miller-Urey experiment did it first in 1952.

Not that there's anything preventing amino acids from spontaneously forming chains and proteins, we just haven't done it yet. I want someone to continue these experiments and create a self-replicating molecule. See how close it gets to RNA just by chemical laws and so-called "random chance."
 
My null hypothesis is that there is no such thing as an intelligent designer that doesn't have a fully working cybernetic code that functions to translate a cybernetic process.


1. So you quote my entire post again and don't respond to the ACTUAL queries?? too funny

2. How'd that "NO Default Position" work out for you? :rolleyes: Have you any ACTUAL "Science" background whatsoever?

In other words, I hypothesize that there is no intelligence that exists independent of energy and matter.


Really? Begging The Question Fallacy: where'd you get matter and energy...?

Please start with the Laws of Thermodynamics and finish up with Quantum Mechanics??


If this hypothesis is correct, then the ribosome could not be designed.


Begging The Question: where'd you get Ribosomes? Since they're RNA + "Functional" Protein Complexes; AGAIN, start here...

1. Functional DNA/RNA/Proteins NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.
It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE.
That's just the Hardware!

To refute, Please show a Functional 30 mer- RNA or Protein (most are 250 AA or larger) that formed spontaneously "Outside" a Cell/Living Organism, CITE SOURCE! The smallest "Functional" DNA (Genome) is a little over 100,000 Nucleotides... so that ain't happenin !

Conclusion from the Grand Poobah's of OOL Research...

"We conclude that the direct synthesis of the nucleosides or nucleotides from prebiotic precursors in reasonable yield and unaccompanied by larger amounts of related molecules could not be achieved by presently known chemical reactions."
Gerald F. Joyce, and Leslie E. Orgel, "Prospects for Understanding the Origin of the RNA World," p. 18 The RNA World, R.F. Gesteland and J.F. Atkins, eds. Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press, 1993.

"However, solutions offered by supporters of geneticist or metabolist scenarios that are dependent on “if pigs could fly” hypothetical chemistry are unlikely to help."
Orgel LE (2008): The Implausibility of Metabolic Cycles on the Prebiotic Earth, PLoS Biology.
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.0060018

Show us Pigs Flying...?

Then the WOOLLY Mammoth in the Room...

2. How Did Stupid Atoms Write Their Own Software....? In other words, show how Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules can Author Technical Instruction Manuals/Blueprints...?


TIP: If you feel inclined to "Wholesale Dodge" my rebuttals again then ramble on incessantly with downstream Begging The Question artifacts, don't waste your time responding. mmm K?


regards
 
Late to this thread, and am having difficulty following what you're written, Daniel. So, apologies if some of my questions have already been addressed (if so, would you mind pointing me to the posts in which the answers may be found?)


Sorry about that, I didn't Target Audience assess this forum and went on Auto-Pilot. I'll take the hit for that. However, it's quite telling that the people "screaming from the rooftops" about their "belief" systems which are "Allegedly" grounded in "SCIENCE" haven't a fleeting glimpse of a clue about that which they profess (Blindly Parrot).

To me, it seems you are using a lot of words/terms, with very particular meanings which are either not well-understood by other readers or poorly defined.


Fair Enough.

Take this, for example:

What do you mean by "Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING Schemes"? Please be as detailed and specific as you can.


This is DNA ----> DNA Translation. There are NO Physico-Chemical links between the " CODE " and Amino Acid or Instruction. The Laws of Physics/Chemistry contain NO Symbolic Logic Functions, this motif...

CCU, CCC, CCA, CCG = ....................... Proline.
CUU, CUC, CUA, CUG, UUA, UUG =.................... Leucine
UAA, UAG, UGA =................................... STOP!

It's basically about "Information".


This seems to refer to something that people who study computer science (CS) would be familiar with; is that so (as far as you know)? If so, would you please quote a good definition from a reliable CS source?


Sure...

"The genetic code performs a mapping between the sequences of the four nucleotides in mRNA to the sequences of the 20 amino acids in protein. It is highly relevant to the origin of life that the genetic code is constructed to confront and solve the problems of communication and recording by the same principles found both in the genetic information system and in modern computer and communication codes."
Yockey, HP; Origin of life on earth and Shannon's theory of communication. In open problems of computational molecular biology. Computers and Chemistry; 24(1):105-123, Jan 2000

Here's another example:

I may be mistaken, but I thought I read about some experiments which did, in fact, produce one/some protein(s) "spontaneously" "outside already existing cells", but I may be mis-remembering (can any other reader help please?)


Are you referring to Miller-Urey??

If so, they didn't produce any "Proteins" let alone "Functional Proteins" and the Experimental Design was such that there was Overwhelming Investigator (Intelligent) Interference; (it's quite laughable).

In any case, what is the basis for your "It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE" claim?


The DeltaG for Nucleosides wickering themselves together from bases and sugars is "POSITIVE" as is the Phosphorylation into Nucleotides. Sunlight is a severe demonstrable antagonist to ALL of it (as it destroys Nucleic and Amino Acids). That's not even speaking to: Stereoisomerization, Hydrolysis/Brownian Motion, pH, Bi/Mono Functional Molecules, and Cross Reactions from here to Christmas. I'd also like to see the precursors for those Bases (purines and pyrimidines) all "Natural" like within the constraints of 2LOT.


Also, why pick on the formation of functional (what does this mean, by the way?) DNA/RNA/Proteins? Why is/should this be different from the formation of 'neutronium' inside a neutron star (say)?


Well "LIFE" is based on Functional Sequence/Specified Complexity. Random Sequences of AA's/DNA/RNA are Football Bats, basically.

e.g., which is "Functional"...

1. hdgryeoh dgfgwiqpr, qhggtqopeutrs

or

2. "It puts the lotion in the basket". ??

In Biochemistry...."Structure = Function" motif.

It would probably be beneficial to familiarize yourself with Primary Structure and Secondary Structure: Proteins/DNA/RNA.


regards
 
1. So you quote my entire post again and don't respond to the ACTUAL queries?? too funny

So you don't quote any response of mine to your queries and then claim I didn't respond? Too funny.

I said that any claim can be expressed as a null hypothesis. Then you said that only a 'null claim' can be expressed with the word not. So I took my hypothesis and wrote it with a not.

I said that an intelligent entity can NOT withOUT a code and decoding organ, referred to as a ribosome.

This is the null hypothesis that you failed to falsify. Every intelligent organism has a ribosome that a sometime had to be created by an unguided process.

If my null hypothesis is valid, then the ribosome had to be created by a process unguided by an intelligent entity. If God created the ribosome, then He would have to have a ribosome created by unguided processes. However, then He would not be God. He would be an extraterrestrial alien!

2. How'd that "NO Default Position" work out for you? :rolleyes:

Fine. I came up with a null hypothesis that contradicts your null hypothesis. So which null hypothesis does the reader consider 'default'?

You have not responded to my query. I asked you why my null hypothesis can't be considered the default. Instead, you claim that I haven't responded to your query.



Have you any ACTUAL "Science" background whatsoever?



I am a PhD physicist specializing in optics and solid state physics. I invented a device for detecting bacteria in the atmosphere. I have preformed many experiments and have programmed many computers. I have over 50 refereed publications in physics. I have patents for methods in biodetection and quantum cryptography.

I have worked in many hobbies outside of physics I collect fossils as a hobby. I am also a volunteer docent in an insect zoo.

My education is heavy in the fields that you are claiming expertise in. I took biology and organic chemistry as an undergraduate (both terms of each). I minored in philosophy as an undergraduate. I took courses in philosophy and anthropology. I took physical anthropology, which discussed the evolution of primates. I took statistics. I have written a few articles in factor analysis, an important topic in statistics.

What is your background in science?





Really? Begging The Question Fallacy: where'd you get matter and energy...?


Begging The Question: where'd you get Ribosomes? Since they're RNA + "Functional" Protein Complexes; AGAIN, start here...

There are no coding schemes without a physical decoder. When one codes or decodes a message, there has to be a decoder made of matter and energy that does the decoding. There is no code without a device consisting of matter and energy.

The decoder in living organisms is a ribosome. The cybernetic process that translates RNA to protein are the chemical reactions that occur in the ribosome.

There is no decoding device that is made of information alone. In fact, the code is determined by the decoding body that is physical. Information is not physical, although it requires physical decoding body.

All intelligent designers that have been experimentally shown to exist have ribosomes that decode RNA sequences into amino acid sequences.

To bad you didn't pass introductory biology, huh? :)



1. Functional DNA/RNA/Proteins NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.[/QUOTE]

You just changed your hypothesis. You introduced the word 'spontaneously' and 'functional'. Further, you are now specifiying that the process has to occur outside the cell.

You have already been told why the inclusion of these words makes your null hypothesis meaningless. The words are subjective, not objective. So you turned your null hypothesis into a completely arbitrary opinion.

Also, God can't do it according to your hypothesis. If God doesn't have physical cells, and the process can occur only inside living cells, then God can't do it! :D

If God has physical cells, then He is just an organism like us. He is a mortal, maybe extraterrestrial, organism. Someone else brought up the pangenesis hypothesis. I don't believe it, myself. However, extraterrestrial organisms at least have ribosomes. You don't believe extraterrestrial aliens can be God.




To refute, Please show a Functional 30 mer- RNA or Protein (most are 250 AA or larger) that formed spontaneously "Outside" a Cell/Living Organism, CITE SOURCE! The smallest "Functional" DNA (Genome) is a little over 100,000 Nucleotides... so that ain't happenin !

It happens spontaneously inside a cell. I am assuming that more than one spontaneous formation can occur. There is a fast reaction that occurs inside a ribosome, and a much slower reaction that can occur outside the ribosome.




Are you arguing that God had living cells? Are you arguing that God has ribosomes?
 
Not that there's anything preventing amino acids from spontaneously forming chains and proteins, we just haven't done it yet.


You sure about that? I'd bet the farm you haven't gotten within earshot of Organic Chemistry, or just basic Intro to Chemistry (high school) with that statement!! But that doesn't stop you from ADDING your 2 Cents though, eh? My word.

Let's see exactly where your @, shall we...

First of all, The Origin of Life (Abiogenesis) Research is an INVALID Scientific Inquiry; UNLESS...somebody has OBSERVED Life from Non-Life. Why?? Well... they skipped the First Step of The Scientific Method: "Observe a Phenomenon"!! It's not "Conjure a Phenomenon" (lol).
It's Tantamount to Observing a Torch Mark on my Garage Wall; then Speculating that an Invisible Fire-Breathing Dragon caused it. And what's this??...
This is a Complete Argument from Ignorance (Fallacy) and has the Quintessential Characteristic that "it"...can NEVER be Disproved!! (How convenient).

But OOL is a special case, because what they're essentially saying with Abiogenesis is: NATURE/Natural Laws can Create Life from Non-Life.
This is still a Fallacious Argument, **and Scientific Law Violating (SEE: Law of Biogenesis) heresy, but has only ONE Category that is accessible "Nature DID IT", so it's not a COMPLETE Argument from Ignorance ( as our Invisible Fire-Breathing Dragon above). That is, we have ACCESS to the "alleged" CAUSE..."Nature". Well...

"Functional" Proteins First:

Of the ~500 Amino Acids (AA's) known, 23 of them are Alpha Amino Acids. All Life requires and exclusively uses 20 Essential Alpha AA's.
1. Please show (CITE Source) of the "Natural" Formation of ALL 20 Essential Alpha AA's from their "Building Blocks"....? (This is ONE of the dirty little secrets you never hear about, it's really quite mind numbing...but they know they can 'Whistle Past The Graveyard', because of the utter ignorance and "Blind" Faith of their target audience).
2. We could in-effect stop right here, but where's the fun in that.
3. Once you get all of the Alpha AA's "Naturally" (and...you won't), they exist "Naturally" as Stereoisomers...Enantiomers i.e., a 50/50 mix (Racemic Mixture/ Mirror Images/Chiral) Left Handed-Right Handed. But LIFE exclusively uses Left-Handed Amino's (There are Exceptions but not material and outside the scope of our discussion). To be "Functional" Proteins, you not only need their Primary Structure (Proper Sequence) but FORM (Secondary Structure) "Form = Function" motif. ONE "right-handed" AA in the chain Compromises Secondary Structure...aka: Football Bat.
In EVERY SINGLE OOL Paper with AA's/Proteins (and SUGARS---we'll get to that), take a look @ "Materials and Methods" Section ;) ... their other dirty little secret, you'll find EVERY-SINGLE TIME the word "PURIFICATION" or equivalent (or Wholesale START with "Functional" Proteins/DNA/RNA). Because they INTELLIGENTLY **sequestered**---if Proteins, then left-handed AA's are chosen...if Sugars, then right-handed ones are chosen, before they even start on their "a priori" fairytale.
**This is Investigator Interference and PROVES the need for Intelligent Agency!
4. The DeltaG for Polymerization of AA's to form Polypeptides is "Positive" i.e., Non-Spontaneous.
5. Peptide Bond Formation is "Condensation Reactions". Ahhh, That is....Peptide Bonds won't form IN WATER, from both a Thermodynamic and Kinetic point of view... Peptide Bonds won't form between two AA zwitterions, this is the form AA's are found in Aqueous Environments.

You'd have better chances resurrecting Alexander The Great's Horse than attempting even a cogent explanation of how this could be in the Galactic Universe of Possibility, let alone actually Physically/Chemically forming a 30 mer "FUNCTIONAL" Protein, "Naturally"!!
AND...This is even before we discuss: Primary Structure, Sunlight which destroys AA's (and Nucleo-Bases), pH, Cross Reactions, Brownian Motion, Hydrolysis, and Oxidation.

And all this is Light Years before..... the sine qua non of LIFE..."INFORMATION"! :eye-poppi

So please, go ahead with your take....?


I want someone to continue these experiments and create a self-replicating molecule.


This motif...

IntelligentScientists_zps39b1ebd6.jpg



regards
 
You sure about that? I'd bet the farm you haven't gotten within earshot of Organic Chemistry, or just basic Intro to Chemistry (high school) with that statement!! But that doesn't stop you from ADDING your 2 Cents though, eh? My word.

Let's see exactly where your @, shall we...

First of all, The Origin of Life (Abiogenesis) Research is an INVALID Scientific Inquiry; UNLESS...somebody has OBSERVED Life from Non-Life. Why?? Well... they skipped the First Step of The Scientific Method: "Observe a Phenomenon"!! It's not "Conjure a Phenomenon" (lol).
It's Tantamount to Observing a Torch Mark on my Garage Wall; then Speculating that an Invisible Fire-Breathing Dragon caused it. And what's this??...
This is a Complete Argument from Ignorance (Fallacy) and has the Quintessential Characteristic that "it"...can NEVER be Disproved!! (How convenient).

But OOL is a special case, because what they're essentially saying with Abiogenesis is: NATURE/Natural Laws can Create Life from Non-Life.
This is still a Fallacious Argument, **and Scientific Law Violating (SEE: Law of Biogenesis) heresy, but has only ONE Category that is accessible "Nature DID IT", so it's not a COMPLETE Argument from Ignorance ( as our Invisible Fire-Breathing Dragon above). That is, we have ACCESS to the "alleged" CAUSE..."Nature". Well...

"Functional" Proteins First:

Of the ~500 Amino Acids (AA's) known, 23 of them are Alpha Amino Acids. All Life requires and exclusively uses 20 Essential Alpha AA's.
1. Please show (CITE Source) of the "Natural" Formation of ALL 20 Essential Alpha AA's from their "Building Blocks"....? (This is ONE of the dirty little secrets you never hear about, it's really quite mind numbing...but they know they can 'Whistle Past The Graveyard', because of the utter ignorance and "Blind" Faith of their target audience).
2. We could in-effect stop right here, but where's the fun in that.
3. Once you get all of the Alpha AA's "Naturally" (and...you won't), they exist "Naturally" as Stereoisomers...Enantiomers i.e., a 50/50 mix (Racemic Mixture/ Mirror Images/Chiral) Left Handed-Right Handed. But LIFE exclusively uses Left-Handed Amino's (There are Exceptions but not material and outside the scope of our discussion). To be "Functional" Proteins, you not only need their Primary Structure (Proper Sequence) but FORM (Secondary Structure) "Form = Function" motif. ONE "right-handed" AA in the chain Compromises Secondary Structure...aka: Football Bat.
In EVERY SINGLE OOL Paper with AA's/Proteins (and SUGARS---we'll get to that), take a look @ "Materials and Methods" Section ;) ... their other dirty little secret, you'll find EVERY-SINGLE TIME the word "PURIFICATION" or equivalent (or Wholesale START with "Functional" Proteins/DNA/RNA). Because they INTELLIGENTLY **sequestered**---if Proteins, then left-handed AA's are chosen...if Sugars, then right-handed ones are chosen, before they even start on their "a priori" fairytale.
**This is Investigator Interference and PROVES the need for Intelligent Agency!
4. The DeltaG for Polymerization of AA's to form Polypeptides is "Positive" i.e., Non-Spontaneous.
5. Peptide Bond Formation is "Condensation Reactions". Ahhh, That is....Peptide Bonds won't form IN WATER, from both a Thermodynamic and Kinetic point of view... Peptide Bonds won't form between two AA zwitterions, this is the form AA's are found in Aqueous Environments.

You'd have better chances resurrecting Alexander The Great's Horse than attempting even a cogent explanation of how this could be in the Galactic Universe of Possibility, let alone actually Physically/Chemically forming a 30 mer "FUNCTIONAL" Protein, "Naturally"!!
AND...This is even before we discuss: Primary Structure, Sunlight which destroys AA's (and Nucleo-Bases), pH, Cross Reactions, Brownian Motion, Hydrolysis, and Oxidation.

And all this is Light Years before..... the sine qua non of LIFE..."INFORMATION"! :eye-poppi

So please, go ahead with your take....?





This motif...

[qimg]http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t97/jstunja/IntelligentScientists_zps39b1ebd6.jpg[/qimg]


regards

Appeal to ignorance.

Appeal to Incredulity.
 
So you don't quote any response of mine to your queries and then claim I didn't respond? Too funny.


oh brother

I said that any claim can be expressed as a null hypothesis. Then you said that only a 'null claim' can be expressed with the word not. So I took my hypothesis and wrote it with a not.


No, you said, then made fun of....the "Default Position" ahhh, "Null Hypothesis".

I said that an intelligent entity can NOT withOUT a code and decoding organ, referred to as a ribosome.


This makes no sense.

And how can you have a CODE (The Consequent), when it takes Intelligent Agency as the "Necessary Condition" (Antecedent) for it to EXIST in the first place, pray tell?

This is the null hypothesis that you failed to falsify. Every intelligent organism has a ribosome that a sometime had to be created by an unguided process.


Then I said, Begging The Question Fallacy): where'd you get Ribosomes...?

And, where'd you get life....?


I am a PhD physicist specializing in optics and solid state physics. I invented a device for detecting bacteria in the atmosphere. I have preformed many experiments and have programmed many computers. I have over 50 refereed publications in physics. I have patents for methods in biodetection and quantum cryptography.


That's My Kind Of Party!!!

And you don't even know what a Null Hypothesis is?? hmmm.


I have worked in many hobbies outside of physics I collect fossils as a hobby. I am also a volunteer docent in an insect zoo.


Cool

My education is heavy in the fields that you are claiming expertise in. I took biology and organic chemistry as an undergraduate (both terms of each). I minored in philosophy as an undergraduate. I took courses in philosophy and anthropology. I took physical anthropology, which discussed the evolution of primates. I took statistics. I have written a few articles in factor analysis, an important topic in statistics.


That's wonderful. Can you then grace us with the Scientific Theory of evolution, per chance....?


What is your background in science?


None of your business.


There are no coding schemes without a physical decoder.


Well, there's NO "CODE" whatsoever....without Intelligence (SEE: above)


When one codes or decodes a message, there has to be a decoder made of matter and energy that does the decoding. There is no code without a device consisting of matter and energy.


SEE: above...No "CODE"...without Intelligence. And...

Yes, it's called "A Medium"...it has very little to do with the MESSAGE; e.g.,

Paul Revere...what's the "CODE" ? One Light or Two Lights, right? What's the Software/Message? It was the Pre-Arranged Agreed Meaning between Paul and The Patriots. Who Created the Software/Message (The "1 if by Land and 2 if by Sea")....the Lights or Paul Revere and The Patriots ??

According to your World-View...it was The Lights!!!

Ya see the difference between "The Medium" and "The Message" ??



The decoder in living organisms is a ribosome. The cybernetic process that translates RNA to protein are the chemical reactions that occur in the ribosome.


Actually the DECODER...is the Aminoacyl tRNA Synthetase's/tRNA Complexes. Without them and about 500 other processes preceeding it, the Ribosome is a Football Bat.


There is no decoding device that is made of information alone. In fact, the code is determined by the decoding body that is physical.


It's made FROM "Information".


You're confused between "The Medium" and "The Message/Information"


To bad you didn't pass introductory biology, huh? :)


ha ha ha.


Daniel: 1. Functional DNA/RNA/Proteins NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.

You just changed your hypothesis. You introduced the word 'spontaneously' and 'functional'.


What on Earth sir?? It is ANOTHER/SEPARATE "Null Hypothesis".


Further, you are now specifiying that the process has to occur outside the cell.


1. Now?? What was it before? Can you show it happening outside a living cell/organism.

2. To say "No GOD"...."YOU" must believe this. SHOW....?


You have already been told why the inclusion of these words makes your null hypothesis meaningless. The words are subjective, not objective. So you turned your null hypothesis into a completely arbitrary opinion.



This is a somewhat SEPARATE subject from the Null (Nature/Natural Law causation CAN NOT create Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING Schemes)..."The INFORMATION component"; we're now getting into the "Physical Molecule" attributes and "drilling down".


Also, God can't do it according to your hypothesis. If God doesn't have physical cells, and the process can occur only inside living cells, then God can't do it! :D


1. I don't have a Hypothesis about a Forever Past Unobserved Event (GOD's Mechanism) mr. PhD Physics Professor, because it's IMPOSSIBLE to form a Scientific Hypothesis (aka: Alternative Hypothesis or Null) due to the lack of viable "Independent Variables" to TEST!!

I do however have another Null Hypothesis for the Antithetical Position: Functional DNA/RNA/Proteins NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.

This "Default Position" (Null Hypothesis) is TRUE, unless you can show it to be FALSE.

"The null hypothesis is the conclusion that is considered the default – you will accept this hypothesis if you fail to find sufficient support for the alternative hypothesis."-- csun.edu

I have searched High and Low and have failed to find any "Functional" DNA/RNA/Proteins wickering themselves together spontaneously "Naturally" from their respective building blocks, OUTSIDE already Existing Cells/Organisms.

Ergo...

This Formation ("Naturally")...is the Foundation of your Entire World-View, so you need to SUPPORT/Validate IT....? It's just that simple.


2. So Computer Engineers can't make Computers because they don't have Silicon Micro-Processors in their Cells??


I am assuming that more than one spontaneous formation can occur.


Key Word "assuming". Doesn't sound like Hypothesis TESTING to me.


There is a fast reaction that occurs inside a ribosome, and a much slower reaction that can occur outside the ribosome.


Begging The Question Fallacy: where'd you get Ribosomes??


regards
 
Daniel: Why is AIG allowed to use the fallacy of begging the question abut DNA

A good refutation of the creationist Information theory argument

My emphasis added. That is what Answers in Genesis did. Begging the question is one of the things Daniel hates so we have to ask why he is doing it?
7 March 2016 Daniel: Why are the creationists at AIG allowed to use the fallacy of begging the question by assuming that information has to be designed and concluding that information in DNA is designed?
 
Ahhh, is reading comprehension a problem for you?? Isn't that what I just posted....
I read and comprehended what you wrote and cited, Daniel, which seems to be more than what you did :jaw-dropp! The citations are about experiments. Statistical matching of observations are not experiments!
Apples are not oranges.
Squares are not triangles.
etc.
Simple enough English for you to understand, Daniel?

Thus the highlighting in my post:
Whoops, Daniel, a failure in both 5th Grade General Science and English!
In experiments, the variables that can be changed are called independent variables. They are the input to the experiment and are changed to produce the output. This term is borrowed from mathematical and statistical modelling where independent variables represent inputs or causes, i.e. potential reasons for variation.
In
...
the records of the eruptions and impacts are the independent variables because this is statistical modelling to see if there is a match to the ice core data. This is not an experiment. No one is insane enough to thing that people went back in time and caused eruptions or impacts :eye-poppi!
 
Sorry about that, I didn't Target Audience assess this forum and went on Auto-Pilot. I'll take the hit for that.

Thanks.

However, it's quite telling that the people "screaming from the rooftops" about their "belief" systems which are "Allegedly" grounded in "SCIENCE" haven't a fleeting glimpse of a clue about that which they profess (Blindly Parrot).

I can't speak for anyone else (obviously), but my main impression is that you and many others who've posted in this thread (but not all) are 'speaking past each other'; in particular, I think rather a lot of other posters really do not understand many of the key words/terms you have used in many of your posts. Instead they have interpreted what you wrote using the language (words, terms) they are familiar with, here in the ISF.

Fair Enough.

JeanTate said:
What do you mean by "Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING Schemes"? Please be as detailed and specific as you can.
This is DNA ----> DNA Translation. There are NO Physico-Chemical links between the " CODE " and Amino Acid or Instruction. The Laws of Physics/Chemistry contain NO Symbolic Logic Functions, this motif...

CCU, CCC, CCA, CCG = ....................... Proline.
CUU, CUC, CUA, CUG, UUA, UUG =.................... Leucine
UAA, UAG, UGA =................................... STOP!

It's basically about "Information".

Thanks.

I must say that I'm quite confused.

I would have expected that "Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING Schemes" is something abstract, to do with algorithms, and coding (I don't know what extra meaning "cybernetic" would add, here). Instead, you seem to be defining it (entirely?) as something to do with DNA, and chemical processes (I use the term loosely). Adding a link to "information" just makes it even more confusing (to me).

Would you please try to clarify this further?

This seems to refer to something that people who study computer science (CS) would be familiar with; is that so (as far as you know)? If so, would you please quote a good definition from a reliable CS source?

Sure...

"The genetic code performs a mapping between the sequences of the four nucleotides in mRNA to the sequences of the 20 amino acids in protein. It is highly relevant to the origin of life that the genetic code is constructed to confront and solve the problems of communication and recording by the same principles found both in the genetic information system and in modern computer and communication codes."
Yockey, HP; Origin of life on earth and Shannon's theory of communication. In open problems of computational molecular biology. Computers and Chemistry; 24(1):105-123, Jan 2000

Thanks.

I found it is published by Elsevier, but the paper itself is behind a paywall (do you have an open access version?).

Here's the abstract:

The genetic information system is segregated, linear and digital. It is astonishing that the technology of information theory and coding theory has been in place in biology for at least 3.850 billion years (Mojzsis, S.J., Kishnamurthy, Arrhenius, G., 1998. Before RNA and after: geological and geochemical constraints on molecular evolution 1–47. In: Gesteland, R.F. (Ed.), The RNA World: The Nature of Modern RNA Suggests a Prebiotic RNA, second ed. Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press, Boca Raton, FL). The genetic code performs a mapping between the sequences of the four nucleotides in mRNA to the sequences of the 20 amino acids in protein. It is highly relevant to the origin of life that the genetic code is constructed to confront and solve the problems of communication and recording by the same principles found both in the genetic information system and in modern computer and communication codes. There is nothing in the physico-chemical world that remotely resembles reactions being determined by a sequence and codes between sequences. The existence of a genome and the genetic code divides living organisms from non-living matter. If the historic process of the origin and evolution of life could be followed, it would prove to be a purely chemical process (Wächtershäuser, G., 1997. The origin of life and its methodological challenge. J. Theor. Biol. 187, 483–694). The question is whether this historic process or any reasonable part of it is available to human experiment and reasoning; there is no requirement that Nature's laws be plausible or even known to mankind. Bohr (Bohr, N., 1933. Light and life. Nature 308, 421–423, 456–459) argued that life is consistent with but undecidable by human reasoning from physics and chemistry. Perhaps scientists will come closer and closer to the riddle of how life emerged on Earth, but, like Zeno's Achilles, never achieve a complete solution.

I was unable to find what papers (published in peer-reviewed journals) cite this; does any reader know?

Also, the abstract at least does not use the phrase "Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING Schemes", nor any part of it (except "code(s)"). So, at that level, it doesn't help me understand what you mean by "Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING Schemes".

Further, the paper you cite comes from the journal "Computers & Chemistry", which, while pertinent, doesn't help me understand the broader - CS - context.

Do you have a pure CS source you can cite?

Are you referring to Miller-Urey??

<snip>

No.

I'll see if I can dig up what I think I remember reading about.

In any case, what is the basis for your "It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE" claim?

The DeltaG for Nucleosides wickering themselves together from bases and sugars is "POSITIVE" as is the Phosphorylation into Nucleotides. Sunlight is a severe demonstrable antagonist to ALL of it (as it destroys Nucleic and Amino Acids). That's not even speaking to: Stereoisomerization, Hydrolysis/Brownian Motion, pH, Bi/Mono Functional Molecules, and Cross Reactions from here to Christmas. I'd also like to see the precursors for those Bases (purines and pyrimidines) all "Natural" like within the constraints of 2LOT.

Sorry Daniel, but that doesn't seem - to me - to come anywhere close to bolstering your claim.

Would you mind walking me through it, with particular emphasis on separating the "Physically IMPOSSIBLE" from the "Chemically IMPOSSIBLE"?

Also, why pick on the formation of functional (what does this mean, by the way?) DNA/RNA/Proteins? Why is/should this be different from the formation of 'neutronium' inside a neutron star (say)?

Well "LIFE" is based on Functional Sequence/Specified Complexity. Random Sequences of AA's/DNA/RNA are Football Bats, basically.

e.g., which is "Functional"...

1. hdgryeoh dgfgwiqpr, qhggtqopeutrs

or

2. "It puts the lotion in the basket". ??

In Biochemistry...."Structure = Function" motif.

Thanks.

But why are you limiting your scope to "LIFE"?

The claim you made - "Nature/Natural Law causation CAN NOT create Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING Schemes" - does not refer to "LIFE" in any way at all, does it?

You have introduced a (two?) new term(s), "Functional Sequence/Specified Complexity". These too seem to be CS concepts, not limited to "LIFE". Would you please explain what you mean by these, in some detail? And provide references to relevant CS texts/papers too?

It would probably be beneficial to familiarize yourself with Primary Structure and Secondary Structure: Proteins/DNA/RNA.

Sure.

But, again, why should this be limited to "Proteins/DNA/RNA"?

Lastly, perhaps somewhat at a tangent: are viruses part of "LIFE"?
 

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