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Creationist argument about DNA and information

This is exactly the inevitable question. If it isn't scientific, is it some other kind of theory, like a creation myth? What is the alternative to the theory of evolution


It's not only NOT Scientific, it Doesn't Exist.


Well as mentioned previously, you have only Two Choices for HOW we (Universe/Us) are here: Nature (Unguided) vs Intelligent Design/GOD.

Once you reckon that there MUST BE "A CREATOR", then it's time to find out WHO that is.
I can tell you that it is Jesus Christ. But, and this is very important...I've found through the years that "YOU" must find that for "YOURSELF". I've led you this far, the rest is up to you.

regards
 
Please answer the question.

You would be mistaken, they are one and the same. It's been kinda 'Stamp on The Forehead' obvious ever since my first post.
~much snipped world salad~

Goal post movement noted. Dodge of a direct question noted.

I asked you up-thread a question:

Quote:
Just how does one go about determining the age of something in your world?

You replied:

Quote:
Historical Documentation.

I then asked, several times about this:

Quote:
And please, answer my questions above, about how 'Daniel' science progresses in the face of new information. Is it dismissed outright, since it is not historically documented? Do you believe the sun circles the earth? If not, why not? Do you believe that the earth is flat? If not, why not? Germ theory, do you accept germ theory? If not, why not? Notice in all of those examples, I am using 'Daniel' science. Historical documentation.

I am trying to understand your position vis-a-vis Historical Documentation(sic) being the bell weather of 'Daniel' science. Would you please answer the question above so that I can better understand. Educate me. Enlighten me. Answer me. Please.

Repeatedly, I remain yours, ect, ect.....
 
Goal post movement noted. Dodge of a direct question noted.


It's not. SUPPORT ??


I am trying to understand your position vis-a-vis Historical Documentation(sic) being the bell weather of 'Daniel' science.


So we can add reading comprehension issues to your list, which is getting quite long.

You asked: "Just how does one go about determining the age of something in your world?"

I said: "Historical Documentation".

This doesn't then give you Carte Blanche authority to Incoherently Staple "Daniel Science = Historical Documentation" motif to anything you wish. It smacks of reading comprehension issues and/or deliberate misrepresentation. <--- I'm leaning here.


Do you believe the sun circles the earth? If not, why not?


Nope, but...

Leading cosmologist George Francis Rayner Ellis...

‘People need to be aware that there is a range of models that could explain the observations … For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations. … You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds. In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong in that. What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that." {emphasis mine}
Gibbs, W. Wayt, 1995. Profile: George F.R. Ellis; Thinking Globally, Acting Universally. Scientific American 273(4):28, 29

Do you believe that the earth is flat?


No, but Daniel Shenton ("evolutionist")...Head of the Flat Earth Society does. :rolleyes:


Germ theory, do you accept germ theory?


It is an "ACTUAL" Scientific Theory.

Can you post the Scientific Theory of evolution...?


Notice in all of those examples, I am using 'Daniel' science. Historical documentation.


oy vey


regards
 
Marplots:... OK, I choose Nature (Unguided). What now?

Perpetual Student: :thumbsup:



Lookout%20below_zpsmy2zvnxb.jpg
 
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Well as mentioned previously, you have only Two Choices for HOW we (Universe/Us) are here: Nature (Unguided) vs Intelligent Design/GOD.

This is an interesting premise. I'd like to explore the implications.

At first, it appears helpful to Daniel's argument. If the two categories are distinct and do not overlap, then challenges to the Nature view would be evidence supporting the ID view. We'd have a Venn diagram with two, non-intersecting circles, either of which (but not both) would represent the state of affairs in the Universe.

However, the parenthetical (unguided) is an important addition. Why? Because we all agree that as some level, natural laws exist and inform our understanding of the world. By natural law, I merely mean the regular patterns we see around us - the kind of reliable "rules" we use daily to operate in the world. Non-controversial stuff like gravity or the laws of electricity.

If the Venn diagram has two distinct circles, we would simply point to those natural laws we accept and agree we are in the universe without God's guiding hand. Ah, but the parenthetical (unguided) allows a further distinction. Natural laws - or those rules we are calling natural laws - might in turn be authored, and hence guided.

In that case, all that we perceive as being part of the natural (unguided) scheme might really be a circle within the larger circle of "that's the way God created it." Note the asymmetry here. Anything I can find that is not explainable by natural law indicates a Creator, but anything I find which is explained by natural law still has to be shown to be unguided, for God may have hidden His mighty hand.

Our Venn diagram now looks like a big circle (Creator God) and a smaller circle entirely enclosed within it. No matter how large we make the "seems to follow rules" circle, we can never decide there isn't yet some portion of the larger circle to discover - as yet unknown.

Is this, then, "checkmate atheists?" No. The reason is because we have no way to identify things that are not amenable to a natural law explanation. While we cannot say that God hasn't just decided to make the world appear this way, anything that seems supernatural just gets grafted on as an alteration of the theory and becomes "natural." From this perspective, God or no-God appears exactly the same. There's no particular reason to accept one or the other.

But now Daniel has introduced a further hurdle. Instead of saying (as many other believers have) that evolution is true, but just another example of God using natural means (which He created) to accomplish His purpose, Daniel has chosen a positive assertion to challenge the idea of evolution. Instead of accepting whatever discovery and understanding we claim, and then suggesting God did it anyhow, he is adopting the story from a religious text as a positive fact about the world - and here his argument becomes vulnerable to the same testing any scientific theory would. He has entered a different arena and wishes to do battle on different grounds.

The structure of the argument is now different. Proving evolution wrong is no longer evidence that creationism is right. It's just evidence that evolution is wrong. We no longer have an either/or Venn diagram. He can only make progress, not by disproving another theory, but by proving his own. This is because there might be a third, or fourth, or any number of hybrid theories out there - we have abandoned the God/no God schema.

This new set-up allows me to ask questions about the creation theory. For example, "How did God do it?" or, "Can we duplicate His method?" or "What testable predictions does your theory offer us?" All the usual stuff. It's a huge burden.
 
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Well as mentioned previously, you have only Two Choices for HOW we (Universe/Us) are here: Nature (Unguided) vs Intelligent Design/GOD.

How do you know that these are the only two choices? How do you know the 2nd one even is a choice?

Seems like you might just be making things up.
 
This is an interesting premise. I'd like to explore the implications.


Is this, then, "checkmate atheists?" No. The reason is because we have no way to identify things that are not amenable to a natural law explanation.


Ahhh, yes it is Checkmate!!! 6 ways from Sunday, Ready...

Please explain the sentence you just wrote (Information) by Natural Law...?

Got another 10,000 or so for ya after you answer this one :D

Anymore hang'n watermelon size curve-balls you wish me to jack yard?


regards
 
Ahhh, yes it is Checkmate!!! 6 ways from Sunday, Ready...

Please explain the sentence you just wrote (Information) by Natural Law...?

Got another 10,000 or so for ya after you answer this one :D

Anymore hang'n watermelon size curve-balls you wish me to jack yard?


regards

I don't understand your question. You want me to explain "information" using Natural Law?

What does it mean if I can (to your satisfaction)? What does it mean if I cannot?
 
How do you know that these are the only two choices? How do you know the 2nd one even is a choice?

Seems like you might just be making things up.


Common Sense.

Can you list a 3rd/4th/5th ect Category....?

Do you need Citation? ....

George Wald Nobel Prize Medicine and Physiology...

“The reasonable view was to believe in spontaneous generation; the only alternative, to believe in a single, primary act of supernatural creation. THERE IS NO THIRD POSITION. …Most modern biologists, having reviewed with satisfaction the downfall of the spontaneous generation hypothesis, yet unwilling to accept the alternative belief in special creation, are left with nothing.” {emphasis mine}
Wald, G., “The Origin of Life,” Scientific American, 191 [2]: 45-46, 1954.
http://www.academia.edu/2739607/Scientific_GOD_Journal pg. 175


regards
 
Daniel, why do you refuse to use the gifts you believe the creator gave you to look at the evidence that you believe the creator left in the world?
 
Common Sense.

Can you list a 3rd/4th/5th ect Category....?

Do you need Citation? ....

George Wald Nobel Prize Medicine and Physiology...

“The reasonable view was to believe in spontaneous generation; the only alternative, to believe in a single, primary act of supernatural creation. THERE IS NO THIRD POSITION. …Most modern biologists, having reviewed with satisfaction the downfall of the spontaneous generation hypothesis, yet unwilling to accept the alternative belief in special creation, are left with nothing.” {emphasis mine}
Wald, G., “The Origin of Life,” Scientific American, 191 [2]: 45-46, 1954.http://www.academia.edu/2739607/Scientific_GOD_Journal pg. 175


regards

Danielscience may not have moved on in the last 62 years, but the rest of the world has.
 
I don't understand your question. You want me to explain "information" using Natural Law?


Yea. You said...

"The reason is because we have no way to identify things that are not amenable to a natural law explanation."

So, Go ahead....?


What does it mean if I can (to your satisfaction)?


You can't; Information is neither matter or energy.


What does it mean if I cannot?


Your entire post is FALSE!


regards
 
Danielscience may not have moved on in the last 62 years, but the rest of the world has.

The Young Earth Creationist viewpoint was untenable 162 years ago as well.

A bit of thought and observation shows that the sediments that the Grand Canyon cuts through can't have been laid down by The Flood, and that the canyon itself can't have cut through at the end of that - to say nothing of where the water would have gone.

I can grok the idea that one doesn't understand isotope ratios and dating, but the sedimentation visible in the Grand Canyon can obviously only have happened over millions of years - or be fake evidence planted by a malicious being to mislead anyone using their senses and intelligence.
 
Danielscience may not have moved on in the last 62 years, but the rest of the world has.


The Date of the Citation has NOTHING to do with the veracity of the message. We're not trying to pin down the Exact Dosage for the Cancer Fighting benefits of B12 here.

The Laws of Thermodynamics were codified in the late 1800's, are they Old Hat?? Has the rest of the world 'moved on' ?? :rolleyes:

regards
 

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