Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Machiavelli]

Oh really? Well, the truth is as follows:

1) There is not (and there never was) any credible, reliable evidence pointing to the participation of Knox and/or Sollecito in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

2) There is more than sufficient credible, reliable evidence to prove BARD that Guede participated at a significant level in the murder of Meredith Kercher.

3) The credible, reliable evidence (and lack of evidence) is all wholly compatible and consistent with Guede acting alone.

These are opinions. Judgements. Not facts. Calling something "credible" implies a subjective opinion.
I am interested in facts that lead to conclusions, not in conclusions themselves.

Based on B/M standard, if we apply the same standard to Guede, then there is no evidence to prove that Guede actively participated in the murder of Meredith Kercher.
By my standard - and by rational standards, I believe - there is. But by the standard put forward by Bruno/Marasca, there is no evidence.

Worthless to point out that it is not true that the evidence is compatible with Guede acing alone. This is my conclusion. But it is not interesting to discuss about our conclusions, it's may be interesting to discuss about facts that lead to it.

4) There is plenty of credible, reliable evidence pointing towards Knox and Sollecito having spent the whole evening/night of 1st/3nd November 2007 (from about 6.30pm onwards) in Sollecito's apartment.

There isn't any. But as above.

 

[acbytesla]

These are opinions. Judgements. Not facts. Calling something "credible" implies a subjective opinion.
I am interested in facts that lead to conclusions, not in conclusions themselves.
Based on B/M standard, if we apply the same standard to Guede, then there is no evidence to prove that Guede actively participated in the murder of Meredith Kercher.
By my standard - and by rational standards, I believe - there is. But by the standard put forward by Bruno/Marasca, there is no evidence.

Worthless to point out that it is not true that the evidence is compatible with Guede acing alone. This is my conclusion. But it is not interesting to discuss about our conclusions, it's may be interesting to discuss about facts that lead to it.

There isn't any. But as above.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove personalisation.

The facts are there are no shoe or footprints in Meredith's blood which can be traced to Amanda or Raffaele, whereas there are more than a dozen that can be attributed to Rudy. It was Rudy's palm print in Meredith's blood. There are no equivalent prints belonging to Amanda or Raffaele. I won't even mention the DNA in her vagina...oooops...I guess I did.
And finally, not a call, text or email between Rudy or Amanda EVER.

No link, no guilt.

 

[Planigale]

I'm saying you're wrong, Planigale. The courts said explicitly that Guede was not holding the murder weapon. This finding has become res judicata.
In fact, Guede got a generic mitigation (from "life" to 24 years - turhend into 16 automatically in their application because of type of trial) partly because he was not the one holding the murder weapon.

Bruno/Marasca was not the court who said that, but the courts have indeed said so.

The Giordano-Iannelli court also finds out that the lower courts (Borsini-Belardi) followed a correct procedure of assessing evidence. All those courts emphasize that the lone-perpetrator scenario is contradicted by a continuous set of evidence on multiple levels (it's not just about who was holding the weapon).



As for carrying a weapon, there was no SC ruling. As for the staging of the break in, the courts nonetheless ruled that the break in was indeed staged. To be more clear, the court (B/M alone) ruled that there was insufficient evidence to go beyond reasonable under 530.2, rather thaey "did not" do things.



Of course, but this speaks rather about the inconsistency of the B/M court itself; this is why they come across as politically motivated. Because at the same time, all courts agreed that Knox's calunnia was a malicious act, and even B/M dismisses any suggestion that Knox might be "saved" by ECHR.



Before the - to me - quite glaring contradiction between holding Knox guilty of calunnia, and at the same time rule there is insufficient proof to conclude guilt of murder, well, I think this is for everyone to make their own mind about the true motive behind the B/M judgement.

Michele report (Guede's trial).
"In definitiva, il GUEDE partecipò in termini assolutamente attivi all’azione congiunta di più aggressori, anche se non fu lui a sferrare materialmente il colpo mortale: pur non essendo stato descritto in rubrica il ruolo concretamente assunto da ciascuno degli imputati, è stato chiarito in sede di discussione dal P.M. - ed era comunque già evidente in base alle risultanze processuali - che non si addebita a lui di avere impugnato il coltello. Tale considerazione, per inciso, esonera in questa sede dall’onere di affrontare il problema se proprio il coltello in sequestro sia da ritenere l’arma del delitto, perché nulla sposta nell’ottica di chi, con ogni verosimiglianza, vide estrarre un’arma da altri mentre evolveva, e precipitava, un piano programmato altrimenti.'

The roles are defined in the rubric by the PM. This was not a trial where Knox and Sollecito had full participation.

 

[Vixen]

What Detective Douglas had to say about the Kercher murder and Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito and their involvement in the murder.

“They are innocent—I'm convinced of it,”

KE: What was your conclusion of the behavioral profiles you conducted?

JD: From the profiles created, none of the behavioral or forensic evidence leads to Amanda and Raffaele. There's no history or experience related to violence or mental illness in their backgrounds. None of the behavioral or forensic evidence leads to them. This is not a case of serial killers, cold blooded murderers. They used marijuana, but that’s not some hard core drug that will change a normal personality.They should’ve walked out of there.

KE: What behavioral evidence should there have been?

JD: Well, fleeing for one, which only Guede did. They would’ve been nervous, may drink heavily, or become rigid in their personalities, behaviors along that line – certainly not buying underwear and kissing. The fact that they were kissing - people looked at this as a sign of guilt, if anything; I look at it as a sign of innocence. These two individuals – Amanda and Raffaele, for them to commit this horrific crime and leave the crime scene that way – it was a massacre – and then hours later, be back at the crime scene, just doesn’t fit. These were two young people who couldn't fathom what had taken place. (It was so surreal) they thought they were going to stroll in and out of there and justice would prevail. But, it didn’t happen that way. Justice did not prevail.


KE: Do you believe more than one person could've killed Meredith?
JD: Based on my experience, the crime scene does not indicate the presence of three individuals in the room where Meredith was murdered. What was done to the victim, the way in which the crime occurred, was not the result of three people. This can be concluded without a DNA test.

Yet another professional liar cashing in on Mez' misfortune and conceited enough to think he can "influence" opinion, like abuse-of-office censored ex-Judge Heavey.

 

[Bill Williams]

Yet another professional liar cashing in on Mez' misfortune and conceited enough to think he can "influence" opinion, like abuse-of-office censored ex-Judge Heavey.

If you did not have invective you'd not have much.

John Douglas a professional liar!? You do realize it's been almost a year since the acquittals? Oh right, Marasca's court were liars, all 5 of them. No, they were Masons, no they were car collectors .. damn, these conspiracies are hard to fathom without a scorecard.

 

[query grind]

On most forums I have been on, having a sock puppet is a permaban offense.

Why we wait in awe for the giant intellects of Friends of Amanda to conclude their machinations, lets check out two other stories developing Italy which have some similarity to the Kercher case.

Story 1: The Claire Martin murder
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/27/claire-martin-mysterious-death-italy-stab-wounds
This is a young mother who was found dead from 10 stab wounds including the throat, but was ruled suicide. The guardian article as extra interesting details.

The parents of the victim feel the similarity to the Kercher case

The Martins do not understand why the violent death of another British woman has gone unnoticed. Pat Martin has read a book on the Kercher case to find out. “I earmarked lots of paragraphs in a Meredith Kercher book”, she says, “because there were so many similarities.”

The first point of similarity is Dr Stefanoni - yeap the Italians are still letting her run around destroying evidence:

When the autopsy was carried out, the knife was sent to be analysed in Rome by the scientific police, who were also involved in the Kercher case. Investigators in the Italian capital found a component of male DNA on the handle of the knife, but said it was “not useful” for future comparison.

The next point of similarity is one of the coroners seems to be a little bit like Dr Luca "I'll just take another look at my notes" Lalli [Dr Lalli moved seemlessly from saying Kercher had had consensual sex, had been raped, had been staged to look like rape, had been digitally penetrated by Guede, all delivered completely without blushing]:

An initial autopsy report, by coroners Oto Macchione and Giuseppe Vacchiano, concluded that Martin had been murdered and that her wounds were not compatible with suicide[.....]
Days after the coroners filed their findings, Macchione submitted another, shorter, report in which he said it was probable Martin had stabbed herself – although she may have been murdered. Macchione was not immediately available to comment on why he became doubtful of the cause of death, though Vacchiano says his colleague’s change of opinion struck him as strange, as did the judge’s remarks on suicide.
[....]
He said that when he went to see the judge about the investigation, the judge said: “Check, are we sure that it wasn’t a suicide?” Vacchiano found this odd: “I have never forgotten this phrase,” he says.

A kitchen knife being carried for self-defense is trotted out again

Vacchiano believes Martin was carrying a knife for self-defence when attacked. “I think the woman lived in a condition [in which] she was scared of something or someone,”

Strangely convenient space constraints

The overall analysis concluded that Martin had committed suicide, based on factors including the lack of space for an aggressor to operate in the small ground-floor area outside the house where she is believed to have sustained her injuries.

Very widespread use of wiretaps - indicating the wiretaps of Knox's phone don't really indicate she was a suspect.

As part of the investigation, a series of wiretaps were set up on local phone lines and rooms were bugged. While the transcripts show people discussing suicide, there are also questions that appear to support the murder theory.

People talked about someone hearing screams, while another person named a suspect and threatened to “burn him alive” if he turned out to be Martin’s killer. “That son of a bitch,” a man responds on being told how many cuts Martin sustained. “Let’s hope that it’s him,” one person said on another occasion.

The transcripts are also filled with people telling each other to “shut up” and keep quiet, discussions about the need to get lawyers and a person fearing they would end up in prison. “We need to talk, otherwise they will blame us,” someone says.
[...]
A week after her death, however, two people were heard in a wiretap discussing Martin’s case and €700,000 in a bag. “No one touches the money,” one man said, later adding: “OK, when we finish we’ll go to the station in Grottaminarda, and say that there was €700,000 inside the bag.”

In other conversations, a person described police as being “fixated about the problem of the money”, while at another point someone says, “it’s necessary for the wife to take the money”.

Investigative amnesia!

In discussing the wiretaps with the Observer, Palladino said she did not recall the specific conversation referring to €700,000.

Easy to let a little detail like that slip your mind.

No black scapegoat, so Friends of Amanda will be out of ideas.
Given the small amount of data available I would throw this suggestion out there.
The Camorra and all organised crime are investing in legitimate businesses like pizzerias to launder money (you can use them to ring up fake customer bills and convert dirty money into clean money). They also like investing in places like Germany, since then they think their money will be more secure.
Because unemployment is high, you often don't have a choice but to take a legitimate job in a business that is a cover for the mob.
The victim's husband had moved to work in a pizzeria in Germany and the victim was about to join him. Possibly she had been asked to courier 700 000 euro to give to the boss in Germany for laundering. That would give a sufficient motive for someone to murder her. Once the money had been returned to its "rightful" owner, police lost interest in the case, Dr Stefanoni declared the male DNA profile unusable and the case was closed.

Story 2
http://www.cronaca-nera.it/4496/andrea-ghira-morto-davvero-mese-sapremo
This peripherally involves Dr Carla Vecchiotti who back in 2005 declared an infamous murderer and absconder from justice deceased on the basis of a mitochondrial DNA match on exhumed bones. Doubts have been raised, (suggestions are that it might have been a cousin), so the bones are going to be exhumed again a nuclear DNA check is going to be run. And one of the consultants doing the check? Gaetano Novelli

We will have to wait and see what transpires. The claim is Dr Vecchiotti only did a mitochondrial DNA check because DNA extraction from bone was only efficient enough to support that in 2005. I am not sure that is entirely true, but I think to do nuclear DNA test on bone you probably needed to use a lot of material and perhaps a state of the art lab.

It is certainly interesting the way forensic scientists often appear to belong to factions in Italy.

 

[Bill Williams]

No black scapegoat, so Friends of Amanda will be out of ideas.

A tad amusing, since even you believe Rudy Guede did the deed. Can self-incrimination in the "racist-racist" department be far behind.

Still it's good to read your good and often informative analysis. When the ad hominem is taken out, you often do have something substantive to say. Keep it up!

 

[query grind]

A tad amusing, since even you believe Rudy Guede did the deed.

No, I don't. Or at least, I think it is unlikely.

 

[bagels]

Why we wait in awe for the giant intellects of Friends of Amanda to conclude their machinations, lets check out two other stories developing Italy which have some similarity to the Kercher case.

Story 1: The Claire Martin murder
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/27/claire-martin-mysterious-death-italy-stab-wounds
This is a young mother who was found dead from 10 stab wounds including the throat, but was ruled suicide. The guardian article as extra interesting details.

The parents of the victim feel the similarity to the Kercher case



The first point of similarity is Dr Stefanoni - yeap the Italians are still letting her run around destroying evidence:


The next point of similarity is one of the coroners seems to be a little bit like Dr Luca "I'll just take another look at my notes" Lalli [Dr Lalli moved seemlessly from saying Kercher had had consensual sex, had been raped, had been staged to look like rape, had been digitally penetrated by Guede, all delivered completely without blushing]:


A kitchen knife being carried for self-defense is trotted out again


Strangely convenient space constraints


Very widespread use of wiretaps - indicating the wiretaps of Knox's phone don't really indicate she was a suspect.


Investigative amnesia!


Easy to let a little detail like that slip your mind.

No black scapegoat, so Friends of Amanda will be out of ideas.
Given the small amount of data available I would throw this suggestion out there.
The Camorra and all organised crime are investing in legitimate businesses like pizzerias to launder money (you can use them to ring up fake customer bills and convert dirty money into clean money). They also like investing in places like Germany, since then they think their money will be more secure.
Because unemployment is high, you often don't have a choice but to take a legitimate job in a business that is a cover for the mob.
The victim's husband had moved to work in a pizzeria in Germany and the victim was about to join him. Possibly she had been asked to courier 700 000 euro to give to the boss in Germany for laundering. That would give a sufficient motive for someone to murder her. Once the money had been returned to its "rightful" owner, police lost interest in the case, Dr Stefanoni declared the male DNA profile unusable and the case was closed.

Story 2
http://www.cronaca-nera.it/4496/andrea-ghira-morto-davvero-mese-sapremo
This peripherally involves Dr Carla Vecchiotti who back in 2005 declared an infamous murderer and absconder from justice deceased on the basis of a mitochondrial DNA match on exhumed bones. Doubts have been raised, (suggestions are that it might have been a cousin), so the bones are going to be exhumed again a nuclear DNA check is going to be run. And one of the consultants doing the check? Gaetano Novelli

We will have to wait and see what transpires. The claim is Dr Vecchiotti only did a mitochondrial DNA check because DNA extraction from bone was only efficient enough to support that in 2005. I am not sure that is entirely true, but I think to do nuclear DNA test on bone you probably needed to use a lot of material and perhaps a state of the art lab.

It is certainly interesting the way forensic scientists often appear to belong to factions in Italy.

Yes the Italian investigators are incompetent and/or corrupt and come up with wild improbable theories to support whatever is most convenient for them. Agreed.

 

[Bill Williams]

No, I don't. Or at least, I think it is unlikely.

Apologies then. I have to get better at holding my thumb over your rants of "racist-racist", because I then do not understand your theory of what went on that night. So far - and I KNOW you'll correct me if have this wrong....

You think Amanda and Raffaele arrived at around midnight, saw the horrible scene in front of them, and then were cowed into silence.

(OK, this is the part you need to hold your thumb over....) Aside from that there's no evidence at all that happened, what was it that was supposed to have happened before that, and who was involved?

Why did the first forensic sweep of the murder scene on Nov 2-3, the only truly double-blind non-suspect-centric forensic sweep, only point at one man?

 

[acbytesla]

No, I don't. Or at least, I think it is unlikely.

Seriously ? I guess the bloody footprints and his DNA inside Meredith happened accidentally? I'd laugh, but it's not funny.

 

[Grinder]

Seriously ? I guess the bloody footprints and his DNA inside Meredith happened accidentally? I'd laugh, but it's not funny.

Tesla I don't think anyone is doubting he was there when she died. A while back when the possibility he had a date with Meredith or even just thought he did, you expressed the opinion that he wasn't attractive enough for her. At the time I thought you were exhibiting some level of prejudice, not racism but prejudice.

The ruling by M&B stating that Amanda and most likely Raf were at the cottage at the time of the murder but there wasn't evidence they participated is bizarre and the same logic could be applied to Rudi. Yes his DNA was found on her and in her and he clearly had blood all over him but no connection to a weapon was ever found.

What if he and Koko along with another "gang" member arrived to steal the rent money (it appears many in Italy deal in cash for tax reasons ) and Meredith returned early and the perp in charge killed her? Do you think Rudi would tell that story?

As much effort that went into trying to portray Rudi as a big time burglar etc. I have never seen any evidence he was such nor that he was violent, ever.

 

[acbytesla]

Tesla I don't think anyone is doubting he was there when she died. A while back when the possibility he had a date with Meredith or even just thought he did, you expressed the opinion that he wasn't attractive enough for her. At the time I thought you were exhibiting some level of prejudice, not racism but prejudice.

The ruling by M&B stating that Amanda and most likely Raf were at the cottage at the time of the murder but there wasn't evidence they participated is bizarre and the same logic could be applied to Rudi. Yes his DNA was found on her and in her and he clearly had blood all over him but no connection to a weapon was ever found.

What if he and Koko along with another "gang" member arrived to steal the rent money (it appears many in Italy deal in cash for tax reasons ) and Meredith returned early and the perp in charge killed her? Do you think Rudi would tell that story?

As much effort that went into trying to portray Rudi as a big time burglar etc. I have never seen any evidence he was such nor that he was violent, ever.

We can discuss all day how bizarre these rulings have been....And we have! No one. Absolutely no one has confirmed the date. Rudy hasn't told a single story that is mildly believable. I don't believe for one second that either Amanda or Raffaele were there. I really don't believe that anyone other than Rudy was in that bedroom. I do think it is possible that Koko was involved but not in the actual murder.

If you want to believe that Rudy had a date with Meredith....go right ahead. But there is much less evidence of that then there is than CT's story.

 

[query grind]

Seriously ? I guess the bloody footprints and his DNA inside Meredith happened accidentally? I'd laugh, but it's not funny.

Since I have already covered what my views are I am mystified that you seem to have the same problems with short term memory that Bill Williams suffers from

1. The DNA was from an oral swab when he and Kercher kissed and which Dr Stefanoni deliberately mislabeled
2. The shoe prints were made by Hicham Khiri some time after the murder. The shoebox was planted in his apartment after the Sollecitos acquired a pair of Nike Outbreak in January 2008.

I mean I am fine with people disagreeing with this, but since I have clearly and unambiguously stated this is my belief - what purpose does this dreary trudging around circles achieve?

 

[Desert Fox]

acbytesla:
From what I have read, in many cases where there is a rape (also sometimes with murder), the attackers will claim that the sex was consensual when there is physical evidence. Basically, what Grinder is doing is to give an out against the charge in just about every case.

 

[acbytesla]

Since I have already covered what my views are I am mystified that you seem to have the same problems with short term memory that Bill Williams suffers from

1. The DNA was from an oral swab when he and Kercher kissed and which Dr Stefanoni deliberately mislabeled
2. The shoe prints were made by Hicham Khiri some time after the murder. The shoebox was planted in his apartment after the Sollecitos acquired a pair of Nike Outbreak in January 2008.

I mean I am fine with people disagreeing with this, but since I have clearly and unambiguously stated this is my belief - what purpose does this dreary trudging around circles achieve?

Oh ! You think I care enough to remember what you think. Your stories are less believable than Rudy's. Rudy said even before he was arrested that he was in the bedroom after Meredith was killed. He said he wiped up her blood. The shoe prints only confirm what he already admitted and continues to admit. His presence is not in question, so why doubt that Rudy made the prints that night. Why the need to transform the simple into the convoluted?

Sheesh.

 

[acbytesla]

acbytesla:
From what I have read, in many cases where there is a rape (also sometimes with murder), the attackers will claim that the sex was consensual when there is physical evidence. Basically, what Grinder is doing is to give an out against the charge in just about every case.

Hey, if any associates confirmed that Meredith had a date that evening, I would say the had a date. I'd still say Rudy killed her as the story about some unknown guy killing her whilst he was dozing off on the crapper on his first date with a beautiful girl is not believable.

I really think a 5 year old would come up with a better story.

 

[Grinder]

We can discuss all day how bizarre these rulings have been....And we have! No one. Absolutely no one has confirmed the date. Rudy hasn't told a single story that is mildly believable. I don't believe for one second that either Amanda or Raffaele were there. I really don't believe that anyone other than Rudy was in that bedroom. I do think it is possible that Koko was involved but not in the actual murder.

If Rudi made a date, who would you expect to confirm it? Meredith was very circumspect and I can easily believe she wouldn't have shared the information. The only evidence there wasn't a date comes from the birds and I don't trust them. Also, they were most likely drunk as skunks.

If you want to believe that Rudy had a date with Meredith....go right ahead. But there is much less evidence of that then there is than CT's story.

The "evidence" in the CT relating to Rudi is CT saying months after the event that the pictures of Rudi looked like the guy he "saw" in his place in the dark in the middle of the night. He wasn't even sure and his girlfriend didn't see anything.

The cops early on believed Meredith had made a date and the sex was consensual. The initial read was consensual sex and murder with a pen knife. All PIP accept the pen knife.

Do you really believe CT saw Rudi the next night in a club and only had him 86ed? Obviously he couldn't ID the guy the next night. Btw, Rudi was able to go to those clubs before leaving for Germany. I think it was Domus where CT spotted him and where he went after the murder. You think he'd go to Domus after being thrown out?

 

[Grinder]

acbytesla:
From what I have read, in many cases where there is a rape (also sometimes with murder), the attackers will claim that the sex was consensual when there is physical evidence. Basically, what Grinder is doing is to give an out against the charge in just about every case.

Go read the early reports. The cops gave the "out".

 

[Grinder]

Hey, if any associates confirmed that Meredith had a date that evening, I would say the had a date. I'd still say Rudy killed her as the story about some unknown guy killing her whilst he was dozing off on the crapper on his first date with a beautiful girl is not believable.

I really think a 5 year old would come up with a better story.

Whilst what now you're English?

It is big of you to say if the birds said she had a date you'd go along.

Since a five year old could come up with a better story, why don't you give it to us?