It doesn't matter. I really can't be bothered going through it all again.
If I was the govt I would just pay him a mill so he goes away.
The added bonus is we wouldnt have to listen to Karam moaning.
Should David Bain get compensation?
- Thread starter Samson
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If I was the govt I would just pay him a mill so he goes away.
The added bonus is we wouldnt have to listen to Karam moaning.
PhantomWolf
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Except it does matter. saying that he is not innocent beyond reason doubt is totally different to saying that he is not innocent at all. In fact these two things are so far apart they might as well be east and west.
It is also incredibly hard to prove that you didn't do something beyond all reasonable doubt. Short of not having been in Dunedin at the time of the Murders, I'd say that it would be an impossible goal since any evidence that might have cleared him was destroyed.
If you find that hard to understand, consider this, what evidence would you be willing to accept that would prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not guilty? Now consider the second half. Does that evidence exist? Did it ever exist? Does it still exist to be tested? If not, then you realise that the Theory of David's guilt is impossible to falsify, thus impossible to prove wrong beyond reasonable doubt.
Nearly finally.... The courts have determined that he is not guilty beyond reasonable doubt, yet apparently you don't consider this to mean that his is innocent, yet when this panel determines the converse, that he is not Innocent beyond a reasonable doubt, you don't mirror your previous conclusion. You can't have it both ways and claim to be a skeptic.
Finally. The courts determined the facts and said not guilty.
In my view the courts are irrelevant in the fact finding process. Courts have made such idiots of normally sane people the system should be binned and a fresh start made.
Courts failed twice with Thomas, once with Tamihere, once or twice with Pora, once with Ellis, once with Bain, and twice with Lundy. And that is discounting the execrable work of the appeal courts. The privy council has done a good job because the brain pool is way larger and independent.
Courts failed twice with Thomas, once with Tamihere, once or twice with Pora, once with Ellis, once with Bain, and twice with Lundy. And that is discounting the execrable work of the appeal courts. The privy council has done a good job because the brain pool is way larger and independent.
The Atheist
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To you it does. To me, not in the slightest.
I like to call it the evidence that proves beyond any doubt he did it.
Evidence that showed how Robin was able to shoot himself in the back of the head from more than three feet away and then once dead, stand the magazine on its end.
That'll do for starters, but there's more.
Ditto his guilt, therefore he is getting a fair deal - he's out jail and a free man, is married to some bush-pig of his ability to secure, and I believe they've even bred.
He can have that, but not several mio to compensate him for getting out a decade early.
There is no issue here.
There is insufficient evidence to convict him; likewise, there is insufficient evidence to compensate him. Two judgements I'm ok with.
It is not an uncommon pattern. Both Bain and Lundy testified first time round as innocent bystanders to crimes committed by others. When that serious endeavour was met with 13 years in jail they both tried something different the second time.
You can have your opinions but not your facts though. It is irrelevant to the resolution of the case what David Bain ever said or did. He rang the police and reported a crime. The New Zealand people should congratulate him on doing this, and cabinet should be sacked and replaced while this painful hoax continues. Shame on every one of them.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
...except he wasn't shot in the the back of the head, he was shot through the left temple.... big difference.
My childhood friend's father blew his brains out with an old long-barrelled shotgun. The distance from muzzle to trigger was longer than three feet;
There was the magazine on the ground, and one still in the rifle. Who is to say that the magazine wasn't placed there before Robin was shot.
The Privy Council report, para 118, said that "there is no compelling reason why it could not have been Robin".
I still go with the murder-suicide scenario.
Both David and Robin had the means and the opportunity to kill the rest of the family, but only Robin had a motive, and it was a compelling one.. he was about to be exposed as a paedophile, a revelation that would consign his standing in the community to the scrapheap.
David only had motive to kill Robin after he found his family dead.
The Atheist
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Not when the tip of the gun is over three feet from the head.
No, not the trigger three feet from the head, the muzzle was several feet away. That's the trick.
Good point!
Given the difficulty of shooting oneself in the head while keeping the muzzle well away from it, he was just being prepared, in case the first half-dozen shots missed.
Why didn't I think of that?
Oh yeah, the Privy Council had great insight. What a load of cobblers.
First off, paedophilia has nothing to do with it - he was accused of incest with a grown daughter. Paedophilia is little kids, not teens. Pedantic, but it shows the level of "evidence".
Secondly, Robin had no standing in the community! They were a family of weirdos living in a rubbish tip. To say that David had no motive is incredibly naive. He's a young man with big dreams and feels he's being held back by his family.
What better way to re-boot your life than remove the damaging elements - your family - and set up a life of luxury based around people's compassion for the poor young man who had his entire family murdered.
In fact, if you want to give Baino compensation - start up a Givealittle page.
Heck, if that glorified sandbar in the sounds raised 2 mio, Baino should be good for 4 or 5.
Baloney - see above.
The fact that supporters of David are unable to see a motive is a good indication their support is based in emotion rather than facts.
Hands. Oh will these hands ne'er be clean?
Since cabinet are as confused as ever, and are in another huddle, I decided to return to the first trial to see what is going on.
First trial
Under cross-examination Ngamoki said that all the shots that were fired during these reconstructions using a similar weapon were actually fired from the hip as opposed to the normal firing position from the shoulder. The reason the police did this was to emulate the position of David's left hand fingerprints on the fore-stock of the rifle which were pointing down over the top of the rifle in the pick-up position, as opposed to having the left forward hand underneath that part of the rifle in the normal firing position.
Then
Dr Alec Dempster, the pathologist:
He described the entry wound to Robin Bain as being 4mm in diameter surrounded by a ring of soot up to 10 mm in diameter.
"This indicates to me that this is a contact wound where the muzzle of the gun has been held in direct contact with the skin of the deceased."
This evidence requires the prosecution combo having D Bain either shooting R Bain from the hip at point blank range.
Or On the other hand if the only pathologist to physically examine Robin Bain lied about the 10mil soot ring, it is ONE shot to the temple fired from the hip at a distance.
I contend both impossible for either to be an actual PLAN.
These matters are important, I spend a lot of time trying to assemble the best proof in the most economical fashion that the five Bain, Lundy and MacDonald prosecutions are expensive hoaxes that have destroyed many families.
First trial
Under cross-examination Ngamoki said that all the shots that were fired during these reconstructions using a similar weapon were actually fired from the hip as opposed to the normal firing position from the shoulder. The reason the police did this was to emulate the position of David's left hand fingerprints on the fore-stock of the rifle which were pointing down over the top of the rifle in the pick-up position, as opposed to having the left forward hand underneath that part of the rifle in the normal firing position.
Then
Dr Alec Dempster, the pathologist:
He described the entry wound to Robin Bain as being 4mm in diameter surrounded by a ring of soot up to 10 mm in diameter.
"This indicates to me that this is a contact wound where the muzzle of the gun has been held in direct contact with the skin of the deceased."
This evidence requires the prosecution combo having D Bain either shooting R Bain from the hip at point blank range.
Or On the other hand if the only pathologist to physically examine Robin Bain lied about the 10mil soot ring, it is ONE shot to the temple fired from the hip at a distance.
I contend both impossible for either to be an actual PLAN.
These matters are important, I spend a lot of time trying to assemble the best proof in the most economical fashion that the five Bain, Lundy and MacDonald prosecutions are expensive hoaxes that have destroyed many families.
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The Atheist
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Christ, I hope someone's paying you!
Anyway, saying the prosecution destroyed Baino's family is a bit rich, they were all dead.
Likewise MacDonald - he was a scumbag, arsonist piece of crap, which is what the problem was more. If he hadn't been a piece of crap, he probably wouldn't have made the grade as a suspect, let alone perpetrator.
Lundy? It's certainly ruined his life.
PhantomWolf
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Well no, he still has extended family who have totally disowned him to the point that he pretty much can't even set foot in the same island as they are.
he might be a scumbag, but that doesn't mean that pinning a murder on him because he's a scumbag is good policing. There is enough evidence that it wasn't him that the Jury had reasonable doubt that it wasn't him. It seems further that more evidence seen since the trail really casts major doubt on his ability to have committed the murder.
This one really gets me. It seems like it's a case of "We believe he did it, we don't know how it did it, but he did it and we're going to make up different stories on how he did it until one sticks."
They failed to look at other viable suspects and totally changed everything about the Murder including suddenly deciding in the second trial that they couldn't pin down the time of death as accurately as they did in the first trial all because they had to concede that their initial case against him was totally wrong. The solution to that, make up a totally new scenario that avoids all the pitfalls of the first made up story. It really smells of making up the facts to fit the narrative instead of working with the evidence.
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Atheist:
I am not trying to score points, but you did not challenge the data point. A 10 mil (one centimeter) ring of soot surrounding a four mil bullet hole in the left temple.
I leaned a stick against the wall and asked a right handed man to pick it up. He used his right hand, as I would. Control, precision, placement of object. Dempster described a non exiting bullet 45 degrees to right rear of brain and 10 degrees tilted up. This is exactly the injury a right handed man achieves when placing rifle stock on the floor, leaning his left temple to the silencer and reaching down with his left thumb. Try it. Robin Bain did and it worked
Ring of soot, passage of bullet through brain equals suicide.
We can rule out the alternative of a weapon wielding threat because David Bain's finger prints would have been in the wrong place unless shooting from the hip as explained above.
Since this evidence is original from the immediate crime scene we can logically ignore everything else. Everything.
However, unsurprisingly, both crown and defence agreed the 270 mil complete footprint was made by the killer, so it is unsurprising to learn that Robin's foot is 270 mil and Davids 300 mil, because Robin killed the family.
If two data points are not sufficient, we can go through every item and watch the dominos topple.
We arrive 22 years later at cabinet farting with the inevitable. (never do this, Joseph Heller, Good as Gold).
They are going to lose and compensate, I bet my life, because Joe Karam and David have established a legal mechanism where they go on and on and on. Trust me on this.
Two fraudulent prosecutions where the evidence was pristine and unequivocal from day one.
And then of course Mark Lundy. Two fraudulent prosecutions where the evidence was pristine and unequivocal from day one. Lundy was in bleeding Petone!! He did not possess a full bio hazard suit or the 30 litres extra of petrol to do three trips.
The killings were done by at least two thugs to attempt the settlement of the debt Permanently Name Suppressed Witness owed to their paymasters.
One drives the car, one goes in for the deed, and is surprised to find not Mark Lundy but Christine. Damn woman would not behave!
So when we bust him out of jail, he applies for compensation. He will learn from David Bain that this is uber straightforward.
Meanwhile 10 kilometers away and 10 years later two more thugs drive a car some distance, turn and leave CAR tyre tracks on soft grass (not push bike tracks that Ewen MacDonald would have left if not leaving that mythical device laying on the roadway). One gets out with a semi automatic shot gun and fires three times, as heard by the lady who is a local gun club club champion, while the farm shotgun is not employed for the murder but rests quietly in its cabinet with its two shot capacity.
Undeterred the Palmerston North police wade in with a manufactured theory, number three for the crooked little provincial town morons. But they are being busted.
They will not escape the searchlight of history, none of these people.
Among them, Grantham, Vanderkolk, Bill Wright, Susan Glazebrooke, Judith Collins, Amy Adams, and a zillion more.
I hope they read this. They are being hunted.
Meanwhile Sue Shwalger refuses to look for four killers terrorising her neighbour hood.
Yep, the Bain compensation matters alright, and so does exposing these mind boggling destructive hoaxes.
I am not trying to score points, but you did not challenge the data point. A 10 mil (one centimeter) ring of soot surrounding a four mil bullet hole in the left temple.
I leaned a stick against the wall and asked a right handed man to pick it up. He used his right hand, as I would. Control, precision, placement of object. Dempster described a non exiting bullet 45 degrees to right rear of brain and 10 degrees tilted up. This is exactly the injury a right handed man achieves when placing rifle stock on the floor, leaning his left temple to the silencer and reaching down with his left thumb. Try it. Robin Bain did and it worked
Ring of soot, passage of bullet through brain equals suicide.
We can rule out the alternative of a weapon wielding threat because David Bain's finger prints would have been in the wrong place unless shooting from the hip as explained above.
Since this evidence is original from the immediate crime scene we can logically ignore everything else. Everything.
However, unsurprisingly, both crown and defence agreed the 270 mil complete footprint was made by the killer, so it is unsurprising to learn that Robin's foot is 270 mil and Davids 300 mil, because Robin killed the family.
If two data points are not sufficient, we can go through every item and watch the dominos topple.
We arrive 22 years later at cabinet farting with the inevitable. (never do this, Joseph Heller, Good as Gold).
They are going to lose and compensate, I bet my life, because Joe Karam and David have established a legal mechanism where they go on and on and on. Trust me on this.
Two fraudulent prosecutions where the evidence was pristine and unequivocal from day one.
And then of course Mark Lundy. Two fraudulent prosecutions where the evidence was pristine and unequivocal from day one. Lundy was in bleeding Petone!! He did not possess a full bio hazard suit or the 30 litres extra of petrol to do three trips.
The killings were done by at least two thugs to attempt the settlement of the debt Permanently Name Suppressed Witness owed to their paymasters.
One drives the car, one goes in for the deed, and is surprised to find not Mark Lundy but Christine. Damn woman would not behave!
So when we bust him out of jail, he applies for compensation. He will learn from David Bain that this is uber straightforward.
Meanwhile 10 kilometers away and 10 years later two more thugs drive a car some distance, turn and leave CAR tyre tracks on soft grass (not push bike tracks that Ewen MacDonald would have left if not leaving that mythical device laying on the roadway). One gets out with a semi automatic shot gun and fires three times, as heard by the lady who is a local gun club club champion, while the farm shotgun is not employed for the murder but rests quietly in its cabinet with its two shot capacity.
Undeterred the Palmerston North police wade in with a manufactured theory, number three for the crooked little provincial town morons. But they are being busted.
They will not escape the searchlight of history, none of these people.
Among them, Grantham, Vanderkolk, Bill Wright, Susan Glazebrooke, Judith Collins, Amy Adams, and a zillion more.
I hope they read this. They are being hunted.
Meanwhile Sue Shwalger refuses to look for four killers terrorising her neighbour hood.
Yep, the Bain compensation matters alright, and so does exposing these mind boggling destructive hoaxes.
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The Atheist
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Sure, but I don't blame the prosecution for that. I blame the prosecution for screwing up the evidence.
Irrelevant - the question was relations with his family and he had destroyed them regardless of the murder trial.
The evidence is hearsay, as the physical evidence no longer exists.
Jesus mate, you don't value your life much. I'd wait for something much more definite than a short-man's syndrome loser like Karam.
have you ever considered a career in fantasy writing? I ask, because that is bloody ridiculous.
I don't think escaped prisoners qualify for compensation, and since he will never admit it, he's staying inside.
Lundy's problem will be getting another appeal. I'd be betting he won't even get to court. Two trials, a Privy Appeal... there's no real way forward and I imagine the fund is well and truly dry.
Public support is zero and I see no chance of him ever getting out.
Jesus mate - you're sounding like this is all getting to you. Chill, man.
Have no fear, there is absolute zero chance Crusher & Co. will be reading this thread.
Atheist, thank you for participating. Here is an important article you should read by Jim Lovering.
http://freebrendan.org/index.php/2016/04/06/brendan-dassey-chris-tapp-agentic-state/
Quote:
In the bleak annals of wrongful conviction, the agentic state looms as a real and pervasive phenomenon. We see it again and again. Once the criminal justice system takes the position that someone is guilty of a crime, especially in a high profile case where public credibility is at stake, individuals within the system will usually do whatever it takes to sustain that position. They refuse to admit the possibility of error. They embrace any ploy or strategy that serves their purpose. They treat exculpatory facts, no matter how compelling, as a problem to be overcome.
End Quote
I consulted a professional continental philosopher for an opinion, and he states
The milligram experiment set out to prove more than that people are easily manipulable They can be manipulated into ultimate evil, he wanted to show. Like Hannah Arend'ts 'the banality of Evil' it was a response to the Eichmann trial in Jerusalem. Milligram explicitly said it supported Arendt. Naturally both got into terribly trouble with the Jewish community for suggesting that there was nothing uniquely German about the holocaust, that in the right circumstances it could happen anywhere.
Here is my project in response to this.
I am working on a project to explain to New Zealanders that they have been subjected to 5 hoaxes and I want to correct the history
Hoax 1. The first prosecution of David Bain
Hoax 2. The first prosecution of Mark Lundy
Hoax 3. The second prosecution of David Bain
Hoax 4. The prosecution of Ewen MacDonald
Hoax 5. The second prosecution of Mark Lundy.
In each case there were incontrovertible data points from the outset that these men could not have been involved in these crimes. If I can see it with clarity now it is indeed certain that underlings at the time could see it, as they were availed of all these data points before the prosecutions, yet went along with the authority figures. Then the prosecutors were obliged to craft the known facts into a fictional case due to professional obligations, although that is a point I am unsure of. I think the American code is prosecutors are not allowed to bring false cases.
http://freebrendan.org/index.php/2016/04/06/brendan-dassey-chris-tapp-agentic-state/
Quote:
In the bleak annals of wrongful conviction, the agentic state looms as a real and pervasive phenomenon. We see it again and again. Once the criminal justice system takes the position that someone is guilty of a crime, especially in a high profile case where public credibility is at stake, individuals within the system will usually do whatever it takes to sustain that position. They refuse to admit the possibility of error. They embrace any ploy or strategy that serves their purpose. They treat exculpatory facts, no matter how compelling, as a problem to be overcome.
End Quote
I consulted a professional continental philosopher for an opinion, and he states
The milligram experiment set out to prove more than that people are easily manipulable They can be manipulated into ultimate evil, he wanted to show. Like Hannah Arend'ts 'the banality of Evil' it was a response to the Eichmann trial in Jerusalem. Milligram explicitly said it supported Arendt. Naturally both got into terribly trouble with the Jewish community for suggesting that there was nothing uniquely German about the holocaust, that in the right circumstances it could happen anywhere.
Here is my project in response to this.
I am working on a project to explain to New Zealanders that they have been subjected to 5 hoaxes and I want to correct the history
Hoax 1. The first prosecution of David Bain
Hoax 2. The first prosecution of Mark Lundy
Hoax 3. The second prosecution of David Bain
Hoax 4. The prosecution of Ewen MacDonald
Hoax 5. The second prosecution of Mark Lundy.
In each case there were incontrovertible data points from the outset that these men could not have been involved in these crimes. If I can see it with clarity now it is indeed certain that underlings at the time could see it, as they were availed of all these data points before the prosecutions, yet went along with the authority figures. Then the prosecutors were obliged to craft the known facts into a fictional case due to professional obligations, although that is a point I am unsure of. I think the American code is prosecutors are not allowed to bring false cases.
The Atheist
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Sorry, but I find the idea of "professional philosopher" about as good as "police intelligence".
You won't get any argument from me on the pigs being swill.
Good luck with that.
I suspect you'll find it quixotic, but I indulge in a lot of that myself, so I won't hold it against you.
Bollocks. In Baino's case there is no exculpatory evidence at all.
Hell on wheels, I just spelled it out. The ring of soot is not bleeding well anecdotal. It existed, or the pathologist is a bare faced liar. We already have one in the miserable James Pang who is being called big time in the Lundy fiasco. How many more??
Sorry, but I find the idea of "professional philosopher" about as good as "police intelligence".
You won't get any argument from me on the pigs being swill.
Good luck with that.
I suspect you'll find it quixotic, but I indulge in a lot of that myself, so I won't hold it against you.
Bollocks. In Baino's case there is no exculpatory evidence at all.
If the ring of soot exists it was suicide. Man shoots self. Get it?
