Brexit: the referendum

Archie Gemmill Goal said:
I hope none of the Tories campaigning for out would dare bring up EU subsidies to Scottish farmers as they were the ones threatening that a vote for independence would mean less EU money for Scottish farmers (more lies anyway).



Why are Shellfish Protected Areas EU lunacy incidentally?
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I should have been more specific. When I said Farming I was referring to Sheep. I have no personal experience in other areas. Unless you include Highland Cows. Ever tried getting a passport for a cow? I kid you not. Suffice to say I developed a hatred for sheep and cows, unless they're on a plate.

Shellfish Protected Areas is merely an example of something that looks good on the paper on which it is penned in Brussels, but in practice is pointless and causes more problems than the imaginary ones it prevents.

A better example could have been the recycling of domestic waste in The UK. In theory a very sound idea that everyone agrees with. In practice a major cock-up because Local Councils have to meet quotas set by The EU or face hefty fines, and that is all some of them do... meet quotas regardless of the consequences. The EU cares not a jot how it's rules affect a local area in a country it knows little about- they see everything in black and white with no concessions. The local council has no choice but to implement idiotic systems that, whilst meeting legal obligations set in Brussels, cause and create more problems than they solve. Ironically some areas would be more 'Green' without The EU imposing silly rules.

But again, the above example could be seen as a Daily Mail rant by someone who is lucky enough to have a competent local council. Mine isn't, so mine and others' objections are based on real life observations.

Much of this depends where in The UK you live. Some depends on if you have a home or business that has to suffer the nonsense.

If you're lucky - you aren't affected. But don't dismiss the opinions of those who are as being jingoistic snowflakeisms.



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ComfySlippers said:
......don't dismiss the opinions of those who are as being jingoistic snowflakeisms.........[/SIZE][/I]
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Get used to it. That is weapon number one for those who have made up their mind to stay in. Weapon number two is to personalise it thus: "X, Y and Z are campaigning to leave. I hate them, therefore I am voting to stay in". It's all very childish. Hopefully, here, we don't need to stoop to those levels.
 
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MikeG said:
Get used to it. That is weapon number one for those who have made up their mind to stay in. Weapon number two is to personalise it thus: "X, Y and Z are campaigning to leave. I hate them, therefore I am voting to stay in". It's all very childish. Hopefully, here, we don't need to stoop to those levels.
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To be fair though, if Cameron feels the need to announce that he bargained for getting all the advantages of EU membership and none of the costs (as someone paraphrased(?) above), there must be a significant constituency who deem this fair and good. If that cannot be termed "special snowflakedom", I don't know what can.
 
H'ethetheth said:
....if Cameron feels the need to announce that he bargained for getting all the advantages of EU membership and none of the costs
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There's the word that turns this into a strawman.

H'ethetheth said:
If that cannot be termed "special snowflakedom", I don't know what can.
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And there's the plummet into childishness, as predicted:

MikeG said:
......It's all very childish. Hopefully, here, we don't need to stoop to those levels.
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Archie Gemmill Goal said:
<snip>

Why are Shellfish Protected Areas EU lunacy incidentally?
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I'm curious about that as well.

ComfySlippers said:
<snip>

Shellfish Protected Areas is merely an example of something that looks good on the paper on which it is penned in Brussels, but in practice is pointless and causes more problems than the imaginary ones it prevents.

<snip>
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Could you go into a little more detail about that, as well?

What have they been doing wrong?

Here in the States the regulation of shellfishing grounds has been responsible for the ongoing resurrection of what had been a dying ... actually nearly dead ... industry in areas which had once been world class.

Sure, there was grumbling from some of the fishermen who believed a decreasing haul with the end of the industry quite realistically in view was more desirable than a restored and growing one, but most of them ultimately got on board and even became enthusiastic supporters as they saw the success of the policies.

From your comments this has not been the case over there. I wonder why they haven't been.
 
MikeG said:
There's the word that turns this into a strawman.



And there's the plummet into childishness, as predicted:
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Well, that was silly. I admit I should have checked the actual quote that the person paraphrased/invented, but the "if" is exactly that which keeps it from being a straw man. It makes explicit my assumption that this poster (I'll look up who it was ) was being somewhat accurate. Congratulations on taking the offense you went out of your way to get, but there's no need. I'm amenable to argument.
I'll get back to you when I find what Cameron actually said.
 
ComfySlippers said:
I should have been more specific. When I said Farming I was referring to Sheep. I have no personal experience in other areas. Unless you include Highland Cows. Ever tried getting a passport for a cow? I kid you not. Suffice to say I developed a hatred for sheep and cows, unless they're on a plate.

Shellfish Protected Areas is merely an example of something that looks good on the paper on which it is penned in Brussels, but in practice is pointless and causes more problems than the imaginary ones it prevents.

A better example could have been the recycling of domestic waste in The UK. In theory a very sound idea that everyone agrees with. In practice a major cock-up because Local Councils have to meet quotas set by The EU or face hefty fines, and that is all some of them do... meet quotas regardless of the consequences. The EU cares not a jot how it's rules affect a local area in a country it knows little about- they see everything in black and white with no concessions. The local council has no choice but to implement idiotic systems that, whilst meeting legal obligations set in Brussels, cause and create more problems than they solve. Ironically some areas would be more 'Green' without The EU imposing silly rules.

But again, the above example could be seen as a Daily Mail rant by someone who is lucky enough to have a competent local council. Mine isn't, so mine and others' objections are based on real life observations.

Much of this depends where in The UK you live. Some depends on if you have a home or business that has to suffer the nonsense.

If you're lucky - you aren't affected. But don't dismiss the opinions of those who are as being jingoistic snowflakeisms.



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If I google Shellfish Protected Areas I get things that were set up by the Scottish Government and if I google recycling I see that the EU sets overall targets but nothing on local government tactics to achieve these (as far as I can see)

Is it possible that you are blaming the EU for the decisions of others?
 
H'ethetheth said:
Well, that was silly. I admit I should have checked the actual quote that the person paraphrased/invented, but the "if" is exactly that which keeps it from being a straw man. It makes explicit my assumption that this poster (I'll look up who it was ) was being somewhat accurate. Congratulations on taking the offense you went out of your way to get, but there's no need. I'm amenable to argument.
I'll get back to you when I find what Cameron actually said.
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No, he didn't actually use the word 'snowflake' but it would be pretty disingenuous to dismiss your comments as childish.

"David Cameron says a deal struck with EU leaders will give the UK "special status" and he will campaign with his "heart and soul" to stay in the union."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35616768
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
...



Is it possible that you are blaming the EU for the decisions of others?
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No.

It's a legal obligation of EU member states to meet quotas set by The EU. Fines are levied if they don't. At the moment The UK is expected to be recycling almost 50% of its waste by 2020, increasing to about 70% by 2030. (Top of the head but easily Googleable).

This is causing real problems now. Not imaginary problems. Real ones which are going to get worse because The UK isn't Sweden, Belgium or The Netherlands. We have our own unique problems, infrastructure etc. The EU does not take such things into account when making EU-wide decisions and laws.

None of the above is imaginary. I won't bore you with real life examples of what I see with my eye-holes on a daily basis because, frankly, it's so ridiculous that you'd think I was making it up.

Re the shellfish: I'll try to get back on that one.
Please excuse the lack of linkys etc as I hate it when my mashed potatoes go cold plus I have a full packet of Jaffa Cakes to consume with my hot chocolate. :)


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ComfySlippers said:
No.

It's a legal obligation of EU member states to meet quotas set by The EU. Fines are levied if they don't. At the moment The UK is expected to be recycling almost 50% of its waste by 2020, increasing to about 70% by 2030. (Top of the head but easily Googleable).

This is causing real problems now. Not imaginary problems. Real ones which are going to get worse because The UK isn't Sweden, Belgium or The Netherlands. We have our own unique problems, infrastructure etc. The EU does not take such things into account when making EU-wide decisions and laws.

None of the above is imaginary. I won't bore you with real life examples of what I see with my eye-holes on a daily basis because, frankly, it's so ridiculous that you'd think I was making it up.

Re the shellfish: I'll try to get back on that one.
Please excuse the lack of linkys etc as I hate it when my mashed potatoes go cold plus I have a full packet of Jaffa Cakes to consume with my hot chocolate. :)


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But the quotas don't dictate the specific tactics to be used and if your local council implements it badly it's not the EU's fault. And the UK government signed up to these quotas so presumably they agreed with them.

I think you are tilting at windmills slightly here.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
But the quotas don't dictate the specific tactics to be used and if your local council implements it badly it's not the EU's fault. And the UK government signed up to these quotas so presumably they agreed with them.



I think you are tilting at windmills slightly here.
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Again, no.
I realise that this is a new concept for some but I really have no reason to make stuff up for the fun of it.

Of course The EU don't mention specific tactics. That would involve them knowing what they're talking about and is an example of how dictating EU-wide rules without taking into account the fact that individual countries are, in fact, different is a silly idea.

Based solely on what I experience, (although I've heard similar from other areas), it is impossible for my local council to meet the quota within budgetary restraints. Or, in old money, they can't afford to do it. So in order for the quota to be met on paper, sacrifices are made within the very services being used in the waste collection system itself. The result is a horrendous mess.

You're probably right that blame could be laid on The UK Government for signing up to this. But did they have a choice?




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Lothian said:
Seems the prospect of leaving the EU has hit the value of the pound. Has no-one told the markets that we will all be better off out?
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Uncertainty is behind it, of course. A lot of people are cashing up and leaving that particular table. Those are the weekenders; the real gamblers are just settling in for a session of Short Or Long.

Quite possibly with our money :eek:.
 
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