Brexit: the referendum

[Information Analyst]

You do know that these signs are like a red rag to some particular bulls? Why the hell should my taxes go to building new bridges in Spain or roads in Greece, or whatever.......is the argument. People who don't like the idea of subsidy, or of redistribution, find this an anathema. Don't assign this view to me.

Yeah, but that's only because they don't see similar signs in the UK where they would be appropriate example. In other countries, those responsible are happy to flag up EU support in a way that we just don't see in the UK.

 

[H'ethetheth]

Yes, we do elect European parliament MPs. It is similar to the Scottish / UK government relationship in that the EU only deals with some matters. It is however a slightly different relationship in that Scottish people are subject to the laws set by both the Scottish and UK parliaments. UK people are not usually subject to EU laws in the same way. The EU laws apply to the UK as a country. The UK government generally has to change domestic law to give effect to EU law.

I don't doubt that there are differences. I would expect it, in fact. It's just that the disadvantages mentioned seem to be mostly nationalism-based, as similar government systems are in place in the UK, with the only difference being that foreigners now directly influence British government policy.
To be clear, I don't like everything about the EU. I think they pushed the expansion way too quickly after the fall of the iron curtain, and I voted no to the "constitution" , because I don't see why economic policy should be made especially hard to change, more so because of the liberal (actually liberal, not the US American kind) leanings of those policies.

 

[The Don]

Yeah, but that's only because they don't see similar signs in the UK where they would be appropriate example. In other countries, those responsible are happy to flag up EU support in a way that we just don't see in the UK.

Part of the problem is that it's comparatively easy to put a monetary value on the net EU contribution in pure cash terms. What's much more difficult to determine is the cash value of benefits such as the ease with which I can now move around in, and work in Europe or the way in which UK businesses have easy access to a pool of skilled and motivated EU labour without onerous red tape.

It's also difficult to put a value on the environmental, worker safety, animal welfare benefits we have as a result of being in Europe.

Mrs. Don (who was originally a U.S. citizen but is now a dual citizen) frequently comments on how the U.K. focuses on the cost of everything (Europe, the NHS, the police, administration.......) to the exclusion of all else.

 

[The Don]

You do know that these signs are like a red rag to some particular bulls? Why the hell should my taxes go to building new bridges in Spain or roads in Greece, or whatever.......is the argument. People who don't like the idea of subsidy, or of redistribution, find this an anathema. Don't assign this view to me.

I hear that a lot. I wonder whether those same people would say the same if the E.U. didn't exist and passed a bridge in Wales which proudly proclaimed "Funded by the U.K. government" if they themselves were not resident in the area. If they would, then they are very parochial indeed and if they would not then the issue is viewing the people in the rest of the E.U. as "them" rather than "us".

Then again, if they're enjoying the benefit of travelling on that road or bridge then it's a little rich complaining about paying for a fraction of it.

 

[The Don]

Yeah, but that's only because they don't see similar signs in the UK where they would be appropriate example. In other countries, those responsible are happy to flag up EU support in a way that we just don't see in the UK.

Trouble is, that we're now so backward looking as a country that EU funding contributions towards these large projects would be seen as forcing HS2 or railway electrification or whatever on us.

 

[welshdean]

Sadly it seems that for a lot of people it's some vague indefinable idea that the EU is designed solely to screw the UK over yet will bend over backwards to assist us as much as possible if we leave

fixed

Lothian, are you suggesting that they'll make our exit as easy as possible, or that they'll be very helpful to us after we leave?

 

[Lothian]

Lothian, are you suggesting that they'll make our exit as easy as possible, or that they'll be very helpful to us after we leave?

My view is that following Brexit the EU will purely look at what is best for the EU and will only enter into agreements if they favour the remaining EU. They will see the UK as a competitor and will do what they can to give EU businesses and citizens and advantage over those in the UK.

The point I was making was that some people think nothing will change and the EU will be happy to allow us free trade and will allow UK citizens free movement in Europe while we restrict the ability of EU citizens to come and to trade here. That is naive.

While there will be a will to assist each other any agreement will be mutual. Whatever changes we apply at our borders will also be applied to us at theirs.

 

[Craig B]

That's it? That's the best you can do: trot out silly stereotypes....... Have you got nothing substantive to say?

I would be interested to see a more substantive response also from you. It seems to me that the recent experience of Empire still affects the minds of certain politicians when they contemplate relations with other states. And the current speedy development of ex-Soviet dependencies is unquestionably changing the character of European political geography.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

A lot of British people seem to believe that the UK is god damn "special" that it must be treated exceptionally compared to all other countries in the EU. Unfortunately Britain isn't nearly as special as it once was. This is especially true now that the ex-communist central and eastern European countries are becoming increasingly developed.

Evidently they can't accept that the days of the British empire is long gone and not coming whether or they leave the EU.

Pretty much.

Also consider that a lot of British people don't actually consider themselves part of Europe (which is 'The Continent' to them) and therefore regard anything coming from there with suspicion.

In the minds of some the whole point of the EU is to take UK money and spend it to benefit foreign farmers and layabouts while also allowing everyone in Europe to come and live/work/scrounge in the UK like they all secretly want to.

 

[MikeG]

I would be interested to see a more substantive response also from you.........

Why me? You're British too. You could easily write such a piece yourself. Could it be because the person who writes anything of substance is usually the one who gets pulled to pieces, perhaps, and not everyone is willing to be the pullee, whereas plenty are consumate pullers.

.........It seems to me that the recent experience of Empire still affects the minds of certain politicians......

I think you mentally exaggerate the number politicians who have served more than 40 years or so.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Yeah, but that's only because they don't see similar signs in the UK where they would be appropriate example. In other countries, those responsible are happy to flag up EU support in a way that we just don't see in the UK.

We should certainly see these signs as its generally a rule of the funding that such a sign is displayed. I've seen them quite often dotted around. Not sure what's happened in your neck of the woods.

 

[Craig B]

I think you mentally exaggerate the number politicians who have served more than 40 years or so.

Experiences of that kind have effects that don't always disappear immediately on the death or retirement of the people who personally underwent them.

 

[MikeG]

In all sincerity, Craig, you seem to have thought more about some connection between imperialism and the EU than I have. I haven't anything to contribute on the matter, but would be interested in your thesis.

As an aside, I may be in a tiny minority of people who have at the very top of their reasons for disliking the EU that they raise unfair trade barriers against Africa, and particularly African agricultural products. If, and I mean that advisedly, if I end up voting against remaining, that would in all likelihood be my main reason. That is the only link I can make between the EU and Colonialism.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

In all sincerity, Craig, you seem to have thought more about some connection between imperialism and the EU than I have. I haven't anything to contribute on the matter, but would be interested in your thesis.

As an aside, I may be in a tiny minority of people who have at the very top of their reasons for disliking the EU that they raise unfair trade barriers against Africa, and particularly African agricultural products. If, and I mean that advisedly, if I end up voting against remaining, that would in all likelihood be my main reason. That is the only link I can make between the EU and Colonialism.

Really, that would be your main reason for leaving? A single, minor issue which leaving wouldn't fix, as the trade barriers between the EU and Africa would remain, and I doubt Britain could absorb all Africa's agricultural output.
I also doubt that Tory voting UK farmers would be clamouring for the removal of tariffs on African products should Britain leave.

Would it not be better to work through the EU to get trade terms with Africa improved, as that would benefit Africa more?

 

[Craig B]

In all sincerity, Craig, you seem to have thought more about some connection between imperialism and the EU than I have. I haven't anything to contribute on the matter, but would be interested in your thesis.

As an aside, I may be in a tiny minority of people who have at the very top of their reasons for disliking the EU that they raise unfair trade barriers against Africa, and particularly African agricultural products. If, and I mean that advisedly, if I end up voting against remaining, that would in all likelihood be my main reason. That is the only link I can make between the EU and Colonialism.

It's not a straight link between the EU and colonialism I was thinking of. More like the observations made in this paper.

 

[ComfySlippers]

In all sincerity, Craig, you seem to have thought more about some connection between imperialism and the EU than I have. I haven't anything to contribute on the matter, but would be interested in your thesis.
...

This is important. Automatically putting anyone who has concerns about how The EU operates in real life under the "Daily Mail", "Special Snowflake" or "It 'ain't Half Hot Mum" umbrella isn't very fair.

Yes, there are people who haven't got a clue what they're talking about. There are also people who are affected by, and witness with their own eyes, some of the ludicrous rules invented by The EU. They are in situations which the general populace might not be aware of, or might not at first glance affect the majority. That doesn't relegate their opinions to the "Why Oh Why" League.

Farming subsidies are one example. If I were to sit under the Daily Mail umbrella you'd expect me to waffle on about The French. You'd be wrong as The UK itself, Scotland in particular, is an abuser of a broken system.

I won't prattle on about the lunacy of 'Shellfish Protected Areas" because that would mean losing my umbrella seat.


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[Archie Gemmill Goal]

This is important. Automatically putting anyone who has concerns about how The EU operates in real life under the "Daily Mail", "Special Snowflake" or "It 'ain't Half Hot Mum" umbrella isn't very fair.

Yes, there are people who haven't got a clue what they're talking about. There are also people who are affected by, and witness with their own eyes, some of the ludicrous rules invented by The EU. They are in situations which the general populace might not be aware of, or might not at first glance affect the majority. That doesn't relegate their opinions to the "Why Oh Why" League.

Farming subsidies are one example. If I were to sit under the Daily Mail umbrella you'd expect me to waffle on about The French. You'd be wrong as The UK itself, Scotland in particular, is an abuser of a broken system.

I won't prattle on about the lunacy of 'Shellfish Protected Areas" because that would mean losing my umbrella seat.


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I hope none of the Tories campaigning for out would dare bring up EU subsidies to Scottish farmers as they were the ones threatening that a vote for independence would mean less EU money for Scottish farmers (more lies anyway).

Why are Shellfish Protected Areas EU lunacy incidentally?

 

[Lothian]

In all sincerity, Craig, you seem to have thought more about some connection between imperialism and the EU than I have. I haven't anything to contribute on the matter, but would be interested in your thesis.

As an aside, I may be in a tiny minority of people who have at the very top of their reasons for disliking the EU that they raise unfair trade barriers against Africa, and particularly African agricultural products. If, and I mean that advisedly, if I end up voting against remaining, that would in all likelihood be my main reason. That is the only link I can make between the EU and Colonialism.

What barriers? There is the import duty that applies to non EU goods however that is waived for the poorest countries.34 African countries can import all goods (except arms) duty free into the EU.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

What barriers? There is the import duty that applies to non EU goods however that is waived for the poorest countries.34 African countries can import all goods (except arms) duty free into the EU.

Is it not about standards set for the import that most African imports don't meet?

 

[MikeG]

Really, that would be your main reason for leaving?

Yes

A single, minor issue which leaving wouldn't fix, as the trade barriers between the EU and Africa would remain, and I doubt Britain could absorb all Africa's agricultural output.

It's a minor issue for you, but don't judge everyone by your own priorities.

I also doubt that Tory voting UK farmers would be clamouring for the removal of tariffs on African products should Britain leave.

So what?

Would it not be better to work through the EU to get trade terms with Africa improved, as that would benefit Africa more?

How's that worked out so far? Europe is a protectionist organisation, and that will always be its first instinct.