Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Grinder]

Do drinks/fluids stay in your stomach that long? Seems there is so little for your stomach to do in breaking it down.

Well if you drink water it will pass through immediately but if you have food in there as well it doesn't. The gastric fluids definitely don't.

 

[LondonJohn]

A female perp, or at least one with feminine sized hands, had already tried to strangle Mez, through the stab wound.

I suspect you don't understand what a tourniquet is:

"A tourniquet is a constricting or compressing device, specifically a bandage, used to control venous and arterial circulation to an extremity for a period of time."

A tourniquet in this case is the towel pressed near the neck to staunch the bleeding. You do know whom Massei blamed for the mortal stab wound? It wasn't Rudy.

What a shame that Vixen omitted the very next sentence of that Wikipedia article on tourniquets. I shall do so now, and bold the relevant part:

A tourniquet is a constricting or compressing device, specifically a bandage, used to control venous and arterial circulation to an extremity for a period of time. Pressure is applied circumferentially upon the skin and underlying tissues of a limb; this pressure is transferred to the walls of vessels, causing them to become temporarily occluded.

In other words, a tourniquet is, necessarily (as most people well know) a bandage tied tightly around the circumference of a part of the body near to a bleeding cut. And of course if one were applying a tourniquet to try to slow/stop the blood coming from a neck wound, one would be tightening a bandage around the neck. Which would have the unfortunate dual effect of a) constricting the airway, causing rapid asphyxia and consequent hypoxia, and b) slowing or stopping blood flow to the brain and brain stem, with the attendant risk of brain damage or brain death.

Lalalalalalalala on and on and on and on we go.....................


ETA: Oops I see that others have addressed and corrected this latest inaccuracy before me!

 

[LondonJohn]

Let's see if I understand some things. Meredith's digestion just happened to be in the 1/2 percentile range explaining (not really) why nothing was in the duodenum.

Amanda didn't test positive for coke because though she was buying it from the day she arrived in Perugia she didn't use it until the 1st of Nov. and therefore the drug tests didn't catch it.

Raf said in diary he cooked stir-fry (just isn't actually in the diary) which you have concluded was a meal force fed to Meredith before killing her.

A meal she ate at 6:00-30 is moved to 4 and her system isn't slow it's fast and all gastric contents are through the small intestines.

Just to clarify: a T(lag) of >= 2.5 hours lies somewhere in the 2%-5% range, per experimental study data, not 0.5%.

And even at the low end of this margin of error, that's 1 in 50 people, so it's rare but by no means impossibly rare. And as has been pointed out before, of the 1 in 50 with T(lag) >= 2.5hr, around 90% of such people have a T(lag) in the 2.5hr-3.0hr range, another c.8% in the 3.0hr-3.5hr range, another c.2% in the 3.5-4.0hr range, and none in the >4.0hr range.

Which means that it's highly likely that Kercher died some time between 9.00pm and 9.30pm, that she almost certainly died before 10.00pm, and that it's effectively impossible that she died any later than 10.30pm

 

[acbytesla]

Well if you drink water it will pass through immediately but if you have food in there as well it doesn't. The gastric fluids definitely don't.

I mean juice, wine, soda, coffee.

 

[LondonJohn]

Do drinks/fluids stay in your stomach that long? Seems there is so little for your stomach to do in breaking it down.

Water stays in the stomach for a good while, especially when consumed alongside solid food, provided that the person is not dehydrated or otherwise in need of rapid supplies of water into the bloodstream. The stomach needs to make ingested food into a pretty liquid "soup" (anyone who's vomited - which is probably everyone! - knows that there's a lot of liquid in the mix.

If one were to eat, for example, a pile of dry biscuits without drinking any fluids, the stomach would know to secrete enough water (plus acids and enzymes) to turn the biscuits into a thin porridge. If one were to drink a glass of water alongside the biscuits, the stomach would recognise this and simply secrete less (or no) water alongside the concentrated acids and enzymes.

Incidentally, the phenomenon of wanting to pee - and then peeing - very shortly after drinking a large amount of fluids is interesting, in that what you're peeing is NOT the fluids you've just ingested. Rather, the body recognises (via the sensors in the stomach and oesophagus) that a large amount of fluids have been taken in, and automatically triggers a dump of existing fluids so as to ensure that the body doesn't become over-hydrated. Water can taken from the kidneys and bloodstream as well as the bladder in such an instance. As an aside on this subject, some years ago in the UK there was a spate of clubbers taking ecstasy and killing themselves through having an uncontrollable urge to drink water. What they were doing was taking in water faster than the body could expel other water, meaning that ultimately the water balance of the body became incorrect, with fatal consequences.

 

[Vixen]

I mean juice, wine, soda, coffee.

LOL I'm "scientifically illiterate"...

 

[Grinder]

Just to clarify: a T(lag) of >= 2.5 hours lies somewhere in the 2%-5% range, per experimental study data, not 0.5%.

And even at the low end of this margin of error, that's 1 in 50 people, so it's rare but by no means impossibly rare. And as has been pointed out before, of the 1 in 50 with T(lag) >= 2.5hr, around 90% of such people have a T(lag) in the 2.5hr-3.0hr range, another c.8% in the 3.0hr-3.5hr range, another c.2% in the 3.5-4.0hr range, and none in the >4.0hr range.

Which means that it's highly likely that Kercher died some time between 9.00pm and 9.30pm, that she almost certainly died before 10.00pm, and that it's effectively impossible that she died any later than 10.30pm

LJ although much is known about digestion it is a very difficult issue to narrow down precisely. The meal eaten at 6:30 with a TOD of 11:30 would easily put t-lag into .5% range. The precision wasn't the point. The point was that Vixen needs every extreme to make any of her theories work.

The drugs didn't show up because she took them just long enough before the test to not have them show up.

I'm with Bagels on the digestion debate and don't wish to parry over it.

 

[LondonJohn]

LJ although much is known about digestion it is a very difficult issue to narrow down precisely. The meal eaten at 6:30 with a TOD of 11:30 would easily put t-lag into .5% range. The precision wasn't the point. The point was that Vixen needs every extreme to make any of her theories work.

The drugs didn't show up because she took them just long enough before the test to not have them show up.

I'm with Bagels on the digestion debate and don't wish to parry over it.

Ah I see - I misunderstood your post. You were doing a hypothetical based on an 11.30pm ToD.

In fact, the data suggest that the range for that (T(lag) = 5hr) would be 0.0% (in an otherwise healthy adult). The 0.5% range has a threshold at around T(lag) = 3hr.

But yes, the nitty-gritty is to some extent neither here nor there, as it relates to this case. What's important is that the evidence in this area shows that Kercher had to have died before 10.30pm, and that she very, very likely died between 9.00pm and 9.30pm (and almost certainly before 10.00pm).

 

[acbytesla]

LOL I'm "scientifically illiterate"...

There is no shame in being ignorant of some things. That's why I ask questions. To be less so. It beats "pretending" to be knowledgeable of a subject and then shown to the world that you're a fraud.

Edited by Agatha: 

Removed breach of rule 0 and rule 12

 

[LondonJohn]

I mean juice, wine, soda, coffee.

The alcohol in wine and the caffeine in coffee (and the glucose/sucrose in suspension in a soda) can to some extent be absorbed through the mucosal linings of the oesophagus and stomach. But in all of those liquids the main constituent is water, which will be treated by the GI system in the same way as a glass of water itself.

 

[Vixen]

LJ although much is known about digestion it is a very difficult issue to narrow down precisely. The meal eaten at 6:30 with a TOD of 11:30 would easily put t-lag into .5% range. The precision wasn't the point. The point was that Vixen needs every extreme to make any of her theories work.

The drugs didn't show up because she took them just long enough before the test to not have them show up.

I'm with Bagels on the digestion debate and don't wish to parry over it.

Grinder, you have failed to factor in:

1. A possible later meal, as indicated by the additional wine, vegetables (still fibre) and mushrooms.

2. The effect of extreme fear. Imagine you step inside your home and are confronted by knife wielding yobs in an altered state of consciousness and you know you are alone with them.

3. The fact that there are many factors to take into consideration in assessing time of death.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c...nssge-method-for-estimating-time-of-death.pdf

4. Not even Lalli, a forensic pathologist, could pinpoint an exact time.

5. In addition, the body was in an advanced state of rigor mortis, thanks to the perps delaying discovery for over sixteen hours. The stomach contents would be dehydrated and impacted.

It is rubbish for an armchair biologist to claim they know the victim's TOD, when the expert forensic pathologists had trouble fixing a time, because of the late examination.

 

[Vixen]

Deleted.

 

[Bill Williams]

Grinder, you have failed to factor in:

1. A possible later meal, as indicated by the additional wine, vegetables (still fibre) and mushrooms.

2. The effect of extreme fear. Imagine you step inside your home and are confronted by knife wielding yobs in an altered state of consciousness and you know you are alone with them.

3. The fact that there are many factors to take into consideration in assessing time of death.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c...nssge-method-for-estimating-time-of-death.pdf

4. Not even Lalli, a forensic pathologist, could pinpoint an exact time. Perhaps we should send him to bagels for training.

Yup, a "dinner-game gone wrong." One knows the importance of an issue when guilters have to reinvent the crime to deal with evidence they don't like.

 

[Grinder]

Ah I see - I misunderstood your post. You were doing a hypothetical based on an 11.30pm ToD.

In fact, the data suggest that the range for that (T(lag) = 5hr) would be 0.0% (in an otherwise healthy adult). The 0.5% range has a threshold at around T(lag) = 3hr.

But yes, the nitty-gritty is to some extent neither here nor there, as it relates to this case. What's important is that the evidence in this area shows that Kercher had to have died before 10.30pm, and that she very, very likely died between 9.00pm and 9.30pm (and almost certainly before 10.00pm).

And that all of the assertions need perfect precision of each and every step. Curatolo needs to read a long article and not smoke when the kids sneak off or whatever the current scenario requires. The kids make calls after the PP arrive just at a time that neither cop hears any of the calls or Raf asking what the address is. Drugs don't show in hair for 4 or 5 days so apparently she bought drugs and stored them for the premeditated murder. Meredith ate at 4 and all of that meal had exited the small intestine. Phone calls and texts need to connect to exactly the right towers and could only connect if the phone is where she claims it was. etc. etc. etc.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder, you have failed to factor in:

1. A possible later meal, as indicated by the additional wine, vegetables (still fibre) and mushrooms.

2. The effect of extreme fear. Imagine you step inside your home and are confronted by knife wielding yobs in an altered state of consciousness and you know you are alone with them.

3. The fact that there are many factors to take into consideration in assessing time of death.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c...nssge-method-for-estimating-time-of-death.pdf

4. Not even Lalli, a forensic pathologist, could pinpoint an exact time. Perhaps we should send him to bagels for training.

Lalli was just another PLE tool. The idea that t-lag takes hours is absurd. There is no evidence that extreme fear stops the digestion process perhaps you could provide a non cat study.

There is no evidence of a later meal except in the demented mind of Mignini who dropped the theory completely by trial time. My she had a piece of mushroom like the ones in Raf's frig - and like ones in Nara's and Quintavalle's and probably in fat old Mignini's.

There is no mention of this fantasy meal in Raf's diary as you claimed.

Do you have proof Lalli was a forensic pathologist?

 

[acbytesla]

The alcohol in wine and the caffeine in coffee (and the glucose/sucrose in suspension in a soda) can to some extent be absorbed through the mucosal linings of the oesophagus and stomach. But in all of those liquids the main constituent is water, which will be treated by the GI system in the same way as a glass of water itself.

Thanks LJ.

 

[bagels]

*does Italian forensics*

Based on this bruising I've determined that there were precisely three attackers. One of them was female. Yes definitely female. Her first name starts with...I'm getting an A. Definitely an A....

 

[Vixen]

Yup, a "dinner-game gone wrong." One knows the importance of an issue when guilters have to reinvent the crime to deal with evidence they don't like.

The body was in an advanced state of rigor mortis, thanks to the perps delaying discovery for over sixteen hours. The stomach contents would be dehydrated and impacted.

It is rubbish for an armchair biologist to claim they know the victim's TOD, when the expert forensic pathologists had trouble fixing a time, because of the late examination.

Strawman logical fallacy: "Dinner-game gone wrong" are your words, not mine (nor Mignini's).

In the UK it is routine to have tea at about four (a light snack) and then a supper later on in the evening. It would be quite conventional for Mez to have eaten again, later (although nine is a bit late).

 

[Vixen]

Lalli was just another PLE tool. The idea that t-lag takes hours is absurd. There is no evidence that extreme fear stops the digestion process perhaps you could provide a non cat study.

There is no evidence of a later meal except in the demented mind of Mignini who dropped the theory completely by trial time. My she had a piece of mushroom like the ones in Raf's frig - and like ones in Nara's and Quintavalle's and probably in fat old Mignini's.

There is no mention of this fantasy meal in Raf's diary as you claimed.

Do you have proof Lalli was a forensic pathologist?

Dr. Luca Lalli is referred to as a forensic pathologist in court records.

In the world of the PIP, highly qualified doctors and criminal prosecutors are all bent and members of PIP have to do their job instead.

 

[Bill Williams]

The body was in an advanced state of rigor mortis, thanks to the perps delaying discovery for over sixteen hours. The stomach contents would be dehydrated and impacted.

If it was not for Amanda and Raffaele raising the alarm in the late morning of Nov 2, the delay would have been a lot longer.

It is rubbish for an armchair biologist to claim they know the victim's TOD, when the expert forensic pathologists had trouble fixing a time, because of the late examination.

The best way would have been to take body temperature, but Mignini - genius that he was - directed that the body temperature not be taken.

Strawman logical fallacy: "Dinner-game gone wrong" are your words, not mine (nor Mignini's).

Not exactly "strawman", but agreed that is my term for what you are proposing. Five minutes after being seen by Raffaele's friend, who did not describe Amanda as in a drug induced fugue, acc. to you these drugged up felons raced over to the cottage to serve the victim a second meal, one that you said Raffaele cooked. No one, no prosecutor, no stomach-content pathologist, no judge thinks it happened that way.

You just make it up.

In the UK it is routine to have tea at about four (a light snack) and then a supper later on in the evening. It would be quite conventional for Mez to have eaten again, later (although nine is a bit late).

You said she was forced to eat by her drug crazed roomies. Perhaps this is when Rudy was on the toilet dealing with his Kabob. Perhaps you and Rudy should get together and compare notes, because you seem to agree with him about what he alleges Meredith told him - that she told no one else. He's the sole source, and yet you believe him.