Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Planigale]

If they got the time wrong it can only have been a genuine mistake, because they recorded it in their notes which appeared in Matteini's report of 8 November.

So therefore
a. The postal police must have looked at their watch at 12:55 and read 12:35
b. There was a policeman wandering around with his hands above his head around 13:32, boots up to his mid thighs and a pink stripe on his trousers

Did the police officers make contemporaneous records of their arrival? Or perhaps because it was just a routine visit about a lost phone they did not bother? Did they check in with 'base' to say that they had arrived leaving a documented phone call? Or did they just turn up with the intention of knocking on the door? They then got distracted by students panicking about a missing English girl. Did they perhaps get their not books out and make a contemporaneous record at that point? Or did they just have to make a guess as to the time several hours latter when they eventually wrote down the events of the day?

If there were contemporaneous records kept would they have referred to them when giving evidence? Did they?

 

[Bill Williams]

Please don't put words in my mouth. Nowhere have I said he's corrupt. He's wise and diplomatic.

These are your words, where you make the case for Judge Massei being corrupt....

As you have been told, this was a case of Massei bending over backwards for the kids. It was a case of whether or not the call was before or after was quite irrelevant to the verdict (=Guilty). By conceding minor issues to the defense, it was one less thing they could latch onto in an appeal.

Plus, he probably figured he might need Papa Raff's delicate surgery one day.​

 

[Planigale]

The police did not "mis-remember". They meticulously record time of arrival as it happens and write up their report later.

This report clearly shows Raff rang 112 after the police arrived.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c...1-06-Summary-Police-Battistelli-112-calls.pdf

Battistelli has no motive to misrepresent the facts. Raff is Italian, like himself, remember?

ETA This is the report written up on the date of the discovery of the body, when there is no way anyone knew Amanda and Raff were suspects. Just ordinary cops doing their jobs.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c...ry-Police-Battistelli-discovery-of-murder.pdf

Where exactly was it recorded?

 

[Grinder]

I found this posted at IIP:

So creating a narrative that has Guede, one of multiple perpetrators, being ordered to take sole responsibility

3rd November - Guede receives facebook threats - leaves for Milan [Contemporary newspaper reports]
5th November - Guede arrested in Milan for cocaine possession [Contemporary newspaper reports]
5-6 November - Knox names the wrong black guy. Knox, Sollecito and Lumumba arrested
6th November ?Guede released and leaves for Germany intending to claim asylum?
?13th November Guede's friend brings him to the attention of police
16th November Boemia and Rinaldi identify print as Guede ("provisionally")
???? 'Ndrangheta order Guede to confess to cover outstanding forensic points so as to protect co-perpetrators
19th November - recorded Skype chat with Guede and Benedetti + police.

Anybody know about the alleged actions in Milan?

 

[acbytesla]

I found this posted at IIP:

So creating a narrative that has Guede, one of multiple perpetrators, being ordered to take sole responsibility

3rd November - Guede receives facebook threats - leaves for Milan [Contemporary newspaper reports]
5th November - Guede arrested in Milan for cocaine possession [Contemporary newspaper reports]
5-6 November - Knox names the wrong black guy. Knox, Sollecito and Lumumba arrested
6th November ?Guede released and leaves for Germany intending to claim asylum?
?13th November Guede's friend brings him to the attention of police
16th November Boemia and Rinaldi identify print as Guede ("provisionally")
???? 'Ndrangheta order Guede to confess to cover outstanding forensic points so as to protect co-perpetrators19th November - recorded Skype chat with Guede and Benedetti + police.

Anybody know about the alleged actions in Milan?

Who wrote the highlighed part? Obviously that's not official. People create narratives on IA that is just speculative as well.

 

[Vixen]

Where exactly was it recorded?

From:http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Michele_Battistelli's_Testimony_(English)

Battistelli testified that he looked at the clock when he left the offices of the Postal Police and that it was noon. Asked a second time he said 12:00pm, maybe 12:05pm
He estimated the travel time as 20 minutes because they originally were unable to locate the cottage and had to spend a few minutes looking for it. They had to do a loop and then Battistelli got out of the car and looked on foot. Battistelli estimated it took 10 minutes to get to the general area. Asked a third time about estimated arrival, he said it took 10 minutes to get to the University of Foreigners and then the rest of the time was spent looking on Via della Pregola.
Battistelli estimated that they arrived around 12:30pm because when he entered the cottage he looked at his watch and noted the time and it was 12:35pm and some time had been spent talking to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito outside. Asked by the defense why they should trust his time estimate, Battistelli responded that because he had looked at his watch.

 

[Bill Williams]

From:http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Michele_Battistelli's_Testimony_(English)

Battistelli testified that he looked at the clock when he left the offices of the Postal Police and that it was noon. Asked a second time he said 12:00pm, maybe 12:05pm
He estimated the travel time as 20 minutes because they originally were unable to locate the cottage and had to spend a few minutes looking for it. They had to do a loop and then Battistelli got out of the car and looked on foot. Battistelli estimated it took 10 minutes to get to the general area. Asked a third time about estimated arrival, he said it took 10 minutes to get to the University of Foreigners and then the rest of the time was spent looking on Via della Pregola.
Battistelli estimated that they arrived around 12:30pm because when he entered the cottage he looked at his watch and noted the time and it was 12:35pm and some time had been spent talking to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito outside. Asked by the defense why they should trust his time estimate, Battistelli responded that because he had looked at his watch.

It couldn't be plainer, then, that even Judge Massei thought Battistelli was lying.

 

[bagels]

It couldn't be plainer, then, that even Judge Massei thought Battistelli was lying.

Well the choice was Battistelli was lying (for the second time that day) or there was a time warp in Perugia sending the carabinieri back and forth through time. Massei made a bold choice in the end, but I think he got it right.

 

[acbytesla]

From:http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Michele_Battistelli's_Testimony_(English)

Battistelli testified that he looked at the clock when he left the offices of the Postal Police and that it was noon. Asked a second time he said 12:00pm, maybe 12:05pm
He estimated the travel time as 20 minutes because they originally were unable to locate the cottage and had to spend a few minutes looking for it. They had to do a loop and then Battistelli got out of the car and looked on foot. Battistelli estimated it took 10 minutes to get to the general area. Asked a third time about estimated arrival, he said it took 10 minutes to get to the University of Foreigners and then the rest of the time was spent looking on Via della Pregola.
Battistelli estimated that they arrived around 12:30pm because when he entered the cottage he looked at his watch and noted the time and it was 12:35pm and some time had been spent talking to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito outside. Asked by the defense why they should trust his time estimate, Battistelli responded that because he had looked at his watch.

The problem of course is Battistelli isn't logging the times. He is guestimating after the fact. Not precise.

 

[acbytesla]

Well the choice was Battistelli was lying (for the second time that day) or there was a time warp in Perugia sending the carabinieri back and forth through time. Massei made a bold choice in the end, but I think he got it right.

I wouldn't go so far as saying he's lying. Just that he's wrong. Cops are doing a lot of things at one and they are fallible.

 

[bagels]

I wouldn't go so far as saying he's lying. Just that he's wrong. Cops are doing a lot of things at one and they are fallible.

Well I think he pulled the 12:35 time out of thin air and possibly halfheartedly believed it was the correct time, but I don't think he believes he looked at his watch after talking to Amanda for a couple minutes and saw and noted that specific time, because it is impossible. He just didn't know he picked an impossible time. It would also mean Meredith arrived home before she left the British girls. I agree he was confused by how long he was at the cottage before Filomena showed up which is why he thought he could get away with saying that time.

 

[Bill Williams]

I wouldn't go so far as saying he's lying. Just that he's wrong. Cops are doing a lot of things at one and they are fallible.

Massei heard the testimony Vixen quoted. Then Massei wrote a 400+ page motivations report. All he said on the matter was that Battistelli arrived just before 1 pm. Massei said nothing on why he found differently from the testimony - nor that he was throwing a bone to the defense.

 

[Vixen]

Massei heard the testimony Vixen quoted. Then Massei wrote a 400+ page motivations report. All he said on the matter was that Battistelli arrived just before 1 pm. Massei said nothing on why he found differently from the testimony - nor that he was throwing a bone to the defense.

The timeline is the lady reported finding the phones in her garden. The police went to pick them up and were assigned to return them to their owner, one of whom was Filomena.

From court testimony: [source: http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Michele_Battistelli's_Testimony]
MB:
Around noon, I was in the office and the then ruling Bartolozzi sent me in Via della Pergola to track Filomena Romanelli, as they had been found a phone, I was told just in broad terms, was found a phone registered to her, then since there ... then we made the checks, since there had been complaints of theft or loss relative to that phone, we went in search of this Romanelli to know.
GM:
At 12.00 you started roughly?
MB:
Yes, approximately at 12.00.
GM:
He looked at the clock?
MB:
Yes, I was just back for another service.
<snip>
GM:
And you arrived at that hour, roughly?
MB:
At about noon and a half.
GM:
The again, he looked at his watch, he looked, you looked at the timetable for the case of the parking cameras?
MB:
We do not.
GM:
So around 12.30?

You saw my previous post in which I showed that Battistelli wrote up his report on the 2nd Nov 2007, when he got back.

As you can see, he built in a lot of slack. What should have been a 10 minute drive at most took thirty minutes, because they went round the block twice.

Bagels, Bill and acbytesla are seriously claiming Battistelli set in motion the police corruption, even though the body wasn't even yet found. All he was doing was delivering a couple of standard mobile phones. Yet bagels is convinced he took one look at 'the American' and thought, having powers of clairvoyancy, "Right, I'm going to deduct ten minutes from my real time of arrival".

In any case, even if it took the police a whole extra ten minutes (40" to drive a very short distance), that still only puts the time forward to 12:45. Raff's call wasn't made until 12:51, and then it was to his sister in the Carabinieri. Amanda rang Mom, Edda at 12:47. Edda urged her to call the police, yet Amanda didn't call the police once.

Massei did not consider Battistelli to be a liar. Having wisdom, he thought, "Do you know what? Shirley Conran once remarked, 'life is too short to stuff a mushroom'."

He threw the pair a crumb of comfort in the midst of their embarrassing self-incriminating behaviour...and found them guilty, as charged.

 

[Vixen]

Well I think he pulled the 12:35 time out of thin air and possibly halfheartedly believed it was the correct time, but I don't think he believes he looked at his watch after talking to Amanda for a couple minutes and saw and noted that specific time, because it is impossible. He just didn't know he picked an impossible time. It would also mean Meredith arrived home before she left the British girls. I agree he was confused by how long he was at the cottage before Filomena showed up which is why he thought he could get away with saying that time.

As you saw in his testimony sworn under oath, the police 'never look at the cctv camera for the time', they look at their watch, so it is completely irrelevant whether the camera time was ten minutes, fast, slow or showing New York time.

Next intuitive hypothesis...?

 

[Bill Williams]

TBagels, Bill and acbytesla are seriously claiming Battistelli set in motion the police corruption, even though the body wasn't even yet found. All he was doing was delivering a couple of standard mobile phones. Yet bagels is convinced he took one look at 'the American' and thought, having powers of clairvoyancy, "Right, I'm going to deduct ten minutes from my real time of arrival".

We're talking about Battistelli's testimony which was more than a year after the events. We're talking about what Judge Massei heard in testimony! (That you immediately launch into a strawman-conspiracy says all that needs to be said about your reasoning powers.)

Battistelli testified. Massei ruled. Massei said the P.P. arrived just before 1 pm. In 400+ pages of a motivation report, Massei simply could have said, "Despite what Battistelli mistakenly testofied to...." but he remained silent.

My view is that even Maseei knew he was dealing with the keystone cops. You believe Massei is corrupt.

Massei did not consider Battistelli to be a liar. Having wisdom, he thought, "Do you know what? Shirley Conran once remarked, 'life is too short to stuff a mushroom'."

He threw the pair a crumb of comfort in the midst of their embarrassing self-incriminating behaviour...and found them guilty, as charged.

Once again, you are accusing Massei of being corrupt.

 

[acbytesla]

Well I think he pulled the 12:35 time out of thin air and possibly halfheartedly believed it was the correct time, but I don't think he believes he looked at his watch after talking to Amanda for a couple minutes and saw and noted that specific time, because it is impossible. He just didn't know he picked an impossible time. It would also mean Meredith arrived home before she left the British girls. I agree he was confused by how long he was at the cottage before Filomena showed up which is why he thought he could get away with saying that time.

Overall it doesn't really matter. Today cops in the bigger municipalities cops are tracked via GPS, so it's extra precise. My best friend responded to a mass shooting 10 years ago on Capitol Hill when Kyle Huff shot 8 people killing 6 and then shot himself when the police arrived. I mention it because the police dispatch report was in the paper. Every radio interaction is logged to the second. And the police are trained to report there moment of arrival and where they are at. Their radios are digital so they don't have to identify themselves, that is instantly recorded by them hitting their transmitter button.

 

[acbytesla]

You saw my previous post in which I showed that Battistelli wrote up his report on the 2nd Nov 2007, when he got back.

As you can see, he built in a lot of slack. What should have been a 10 minute drive at most took thirty minutes, because they went round the block twice.

Bagels, Bill and acbytesla are seriously claiming Battistelli set in motion the police corruption, even though the body wasn't even yet found. All he was doing was delivering a couple of standard mobile phones. Yet bagels is convinced he took one look at 'the American' and thought, having powers of clairvoyancy, "Right, I'm going to deduct ten minutes from my real time of arrival".

In any case, even if it took the police a whole extra ten minutes (40" to drive a very short distance), that still only puts the time forward to 12:45. Raff's call wasn't made until 12:51, and then it was to his sister in the Carabinieri. Amanda rang Mom, Edda at 12:47. Edda urged her to call the police, yet Amanda didn't call the police once.

Massei did not consider Battistelli to be a liar. Having wisdom, he thought, "Do you know what? Shirley Conran once remarked, 'life is too short to stuff a mushroom'."

He threw the pair a crumb of comfort in the midst of their embarrassing self-incriminating behaviour...and found them guilty, as charged.

One, there is a difference between saying Batistelli is corrupt and saying he simply made a mistake. Hey, maybe his watch was fast. But he was wrong. It wouldn't be the first time that error begat error begat error.

 

[Grinder]

if the PP were there before Raf's calls the PGP need to explain how they pulled off making the calls without being heard including Raf yelling to Amanda for the address.

They also need to explain why the the very astute Amanda would assume a friendly judge wouldn't accept the times given by the PP. Why would they risk being caught by the PP making the call? Why wouldn't they accept some police were there and they just needed to control the investigation as was their original plan?

Did they whisper on the 112 call? Did the operator keep saying speak up?

Even a third class judge, in a third world country working in a dead end provincial town could see the klown kops had made a mistake.

 

[acbytesla]

if the PP were there before Raf's calls the PGP need to explain how they pulled off making the calls without being heard including Raf yelling to Amanda for the address.

They also need to explain why the the very astute Amanda would assume a friendly judge wouldn't accept the times given by the PP. Why would they risk being caught by the PP making the call? Why wouldn't they accept some police were there and they just needed to control the investigation as was their original plan?

Did they whisper on the 112 call? Did the operator keep saying speak up?

Even a third class judge, in a third world country working in a dead end provincial town could see the klown kops had made a mistake.

What's wrong with saying Battistelli made a mistake? He basically admits he didn't log the time when he arrived or got out of his vehicle. This was a mundane, routine call. They were just returning the phones. When did Batistelli write any of this down? Did he wait until he got back to his car after discovering Meredith's body? Was it 30 minutes later 60? 3 hours?

In the scheme of things it is irrelevant. Unless of course you insist that you can read the tea leaves as the PGP is desperately trying to do.

But the PGP have to argue the tea leaves as they lack any real evidence.

 

[query grind]

Did the police officers make contemporaneous records of their arrival? Or perhaps because it was just a routine visit about a lost phone they did not bother? Did they check in with 'base' to say that they had arrived leaving a documented phone call? Or did they just turn up with the intention of knocking on the door? They then got distracted by students panicking about a missing English girl. Did they perhaps get their not books out and make a contemporaneous record at that point? Or did they just have to make a guess as to the time several hours latter when they eventually wrote down the events of the day?

If there were contemporaneous records kept would they have referred to them when giving evidence? Did they?

They said they did.
One thing is for sure, try handing in your phone as lost to a police station and see how long it takes to get back to you. It will be a lot longer than 2 hours.

The idea that the police are going to have a phone handed in, looked it up on a database and cry "Mama mia! A young lady is without her phone. It is mid-day on a weekend, we must drop everything and immediately race to the address she gave when she bought the sim card on the remote chance she is still living there and is at home. Let us pray we are not too late and she has not drowned herself in despair!"

I mean would the address in the database even be where Filomena was living then? I thought she only took on the lease a 3 or 4 months before hand.

Meredith's Italian phone is a fiction. Knox only called it once - on the morning of the 2nd. It was never used to determine Kercher's location or cell tower pings. It has one appearance and one appearance only.

The moment Filomena got her phone back she immediately rang her lawyers - who I understand are connected with the whole Monster of Florence/Narducci fiasco. They advised her to get Knox to lie for her and promised to fix up the postals.

One of the interesting down the memory hole early newspaper reports is this
https://web.archive.org/web/20071105014001/http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,2204663,00.html

Police went to her house to return a mobile phone, which was one of two that had been found by an elderly woman living nearby.

The woman answered a call on one of the phones, and received a threatening message

Which at least would explain why they received a toilet bomb hoax call and sent the postal police to immediately search the garden and not the toilet.

The Postal Police had Filomena's phone already and Knox was talking to them in those 3 calls 12:00-12:34.
The last call was "we can't find your house."

Once that is established who cares if a man walking along a road at 13:22 has a pink stripe on his trousers or fortunate enough to possess arms?