Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

When I was 15 years old I was abducted by a psycho for his own purposes. I used all my wits to get out of a very bad situation. It took five long hours before to formulate and put my escape plan into action. I pretended to be co-operative whilst formulating an escape from a third floor apartment weighing up the escape options, of which I could find only one. Part of the five hours included playing chess with my captor, bowing to his demand that I get dressed up in his leather outfits and modeling for him. My delaying tactics ended when my captor described in graphic detail what he was about to do to me. I had to escape and I did.

Thankfully he didn't touch me, but my memory of the event still haunts me. It took me five years before I was able to disclose this event to anybody.

Don't attach time frames to how the mentally demented behave. There's no rule book.

It's good you listened to your 'fear' instincts. It helped get you out of a dangerous situation. I should think many here can think of a situation that put them into hypervigilance mode. In the case of Amanda, the postal police described her as being perfectly calm. Compare and contrast the response of Filomena and her friend, Luca, who immediately smashed the door down.

 

[Grinder]

In Washington state his arrest probably would have been for either 1st or 2nd degree burglary, both felonies. In truth he would be in jail awaiting trial so Meredith wouldn't have been murdered in the first place.

Possession of stolen property and trespass may have led to an arrest and he would have been released within a couple days at most three days. It is also possible the police would have taken the goods, written up the GO report and released him. Without any priors, he would be held at most three days. He would never be charged for theft unless they had evidence from the site of the theft.

 

[Vixen]

You're operating under the delusion that Sophie Purton walked Meredith all the way home, lied about it for no reason, the police failed to recognize this in vital CCTV footage they collected, that a random passerby stamped at 13:22 just happened to be wearing distinctive striped pants like the carabinieri right after a carabinieri car drove by, but was not in fact a carabinieri officer, and that the two male figures standing on the cottage grounds shortly after two male postal police officers arrived at the cottage grounds in their black fiat, one of them identified by the police as officer Battistelli, were not the two officers in question. And that half a dozen phone calls totaling about 6 minutes went completely unnoticed by either officer while they were alone with the students the entire time.

So...I guess that makes two of us

You are reconfiguring here the incident wherein the carabinieri had to call HQ to clarify the address, circa 13:26 2nd Nov 2007. However, in the meantime they had found the correct address. There was an argument that as they called HQ 13:26, they could not have been at via 7 Pergola. However, actually they were.

IOW a non sequitur.

 

[Bill Williams]

It's good you listened to your 'fear' instincts. It helped get you out of a dangerous situation. I should think many here can think of a situation that put them into hypervigilance mode. In the case of Amanda, the postal police described her as being perfectly calm. Compare and contrast the response of Filomena and her friend, Luca, who immediately smashed the door down.

What a load of bull. The postal police suspected AK and RS of absolutely nothing, and Filomena and Luca did not "immediately" smash the door down. Do you just type the first thing that pops up in your head?

Filomena was the only one there who realized what Meredith being without her phones could mean. She then told the postals to break down the door, which they refused to do - obviously because at that moment they thought Filomena was overreacting.

It turns out she was not.

You do your "position" no service with your hyperbole. It is far better to stick to facts.

 

[bagels]

Possession of stolen property and trespass may have led to an arrest and he would have been released within a couple days at most three days. It is also possible the police would have taken the goods, written up the GO report and released him. Without any priors, he would be held at most three days. He would never be charged for theft unless they had evidence from the site of the theft.

He doesn't have to steal anything, they merely need to say he intended to. Holding stolen goods while illegally entering a property would probably be enough circumstantial evidence for the charge. But more importantly he did literally commit theft the second he picked up the knife.

Anyway out of curiosity I did more research. Possession of stolen goods valued in excess of $750 is a felony in Washington state, which would qualify for entry into the CODIS database. He was in possession of a "new Sony VAIO laptop" model number unknown. From a 2007 article: "What makes the NR series genuinely unique for Sony is that the starting price is...$799...making the NR the lowest-priced notebook the company has ever produced."

 

[bagels]

You are reconfiguring here the incident wherein the carabinieri had to call HQ to clarify the address, circa 13:26 2nd Nov 2007. However, in the meantime they had found the correct address. There was an argument that as they called HQ 13:26, they could not have been at via 7 Pergola. However, actually they were.

IOW a non sequitur.

Their call to HQ lasted from 13:26 to 13:29. When HQ called them back at 13:35 they had found the cottage in the meantime. Thus the carabinieri arrived at the cottage between 13:29 and 13:35. The CCTV showed them arriving at the cottage at 13:22. Thus the CCTV clock is between 7 and 12 minutes slow. I hope this helps.

 

[Bill Williams]

On amandaknoxcase.com, it says Massei rejected the prosecution's argument that Sollecito conducted phone calls while the police were present, and cites pages 25 and 89 - but I'm unable to look further into that because the site is down. Is QG suggesting Massei didn't rely on the clock being out to reach this conclusion? My reaction to the bit about Purton's boyfriend is as per Bagels.

Massei rejected that notion in a strange sort of way. Massei says that Sollecito called 112: "The phone calls made to the Carabinieri just mentioned were at 12:51 pm and 12:54 pm on November 2, 2007 by Raffaele Sollecito." Also that the postals: "Also present were an inspector and an officer from the Postal Police of Perugia: Michele Battistelli and Fabio Marzi, who arrived a little before 1:00 pm." Then in short order Filomena and her crew arrived.

It is clear that Massei wanted that part of the record accurate, while not calling the postals liars or incompetent.

 

[Grinder]

You are reconfiguring here the incident wherein the carabinieri had to call HQ to clarify the address, circa 13:26 2nd Nov 2007. However, in the meantime they had found the correct address. There was an argument that as they called HQ 13:26, they could not have been at via 7 Pergola. However, actually they were.

IOW a non sequitur.

You are saying the local Carabinieri started the investigation by not being able to find an address?

Are you sure you are not confusing the Carabineiri with the Postals?

 

[Vixen]

What a load of bull. The postal police suspected AK and RS of absolutely nothing, and Filomena and Luca did not "immediately" smash the door down. Do you just type the first thing that pops up in your head?

Filomena was the only one there who realized what Meredith being without her phones could mean. She then told the postals to break down the door, which they refused to do - obviously because at that moment they thought Filomena was overreacting.

It turns out she was not.

You do your "position" no service with your hyperbole. It is far better to stick to facts.

Fact is, Filomena and her three companions arrived circa 12:55, having driven at top speed from a Day of the Dead fair after Filomena rang Amanda (note: not the other way round) and she told her the place was in chaos.

Within about five to ten minutes of arriving Luca kicked the door down. The Postal Police said they did not have the authority. They were further, lulled into a false state of calm by Amanda assuring them Mez' door was always locked.

Please advise which aspect of these facts you dispute.

 

[Grinder]

He doesn't have to steal anything, they merely need to say he intended to. Holding stolen goods while illegally entering a property would probably be enough circumstantial evidence for the charge. But more importantly he did literally commit theft the second he picked up the knife.

Anyway out of curiosity I did more research. Possession of stolen goods valued in excess of $750 is a felony in Washington state, which would qualify for entry into the CODIS database. He was in possession of a "new Sony VAIO laptop" model number unknown. From a 2007 article: "What makes the NR series genuinely unique for Sony is that the starting price is...$799...making the NR the lowest-priced notebook the company has ever produced."

Bagels, I really, really know this stuff. They don't hold people here for a low level crime for more than three days. He didn't commit theft with the knife, since he didn't leave the premises with it. Just like putting an item in your pocket at a store isn't shoplifting unless you leave the store.

The laptop isn't worth over $750 used. Recently the King County Prosecutor raised the felony threshold to $5000 because of funding issues.

 

[Vixen]

Fair enough.
Her boyfriend, short term since she left Perugia as soon as she could, was Hicham Khiri.
Hicham Khiri's employer was Gennaro Crugliano. Gennaro Crugliano's brother was Daniele Crugliano who ran Merlin. The Cruglianos were arrested late 2014 for being the local heads of the 'Ndrangheta.
The 'Ndrangheta controlled the cocaine trade in Perugia.

I think Daniele Crugliano was who Rudy Guede referred to in his German diary
"Daniele “My Captain” "

Elsewhere Guede writes this

druggie-lovers = Daniele de Luna
Merlin/Domus = Crugliano brothers
Downstairs = Giacomo and Stefano.

Probably not the most tactful way to bring up the subject of Daniele de Luna, but since Knox's silence was going to mean Guede would spent 8 years and counting in prison, I guess he can be excused a bit of political incorrectness

AIUI the police had one or two other leads, apart from Patrick. A man was seen covered in blood screaming, "I've killed her! I've killed her!" and was seen washing in a fountain. This was a false lead. He turned out to be a junkie who was having some kind of crisis.

The other lead IIRC was from Amanda and Raff in the questura, who kept voicing their suspicions it was a fellow named 'Shaky' (= not Hicham). Police strongly suspected the quirky couple knew they were being wired because of their theatrics. For example, they kept saying the Italian for "threat" or "danger" as a seeming code for "careful, we are being wired".

Naming 'Shaky' was their idea of a huge in-joke.

NB In the police intercept of Amanda and Mom, Edda, we see Edda doing the same thing when Amanda began to get carried away about the topic of the investigation and suddenly she changes the subject to spaghetti, just as it's getting interesting.

 

[Grinder]

Fact is, Filomena and her three companions arrived circa 12:55, having driven at top speed from a Day of the Dead fair after Filomena rang Amanda (note: not the other way round) and she told her the place was in chaos.

Within about five to ten minutes of arriving Luca kicked the door down. The Postal Police said they did not have the authority. They were further, lulled into a false state of calm by Amanda assuring them Mez' door was always locked.

Please advise which aspect of these facts you dispute.

She never said it was always locked. She took them to the blood in the bathroom. She certainly didn't lull them into anything.

What do you think about Sophie and her gang doing Meredith in? I wonder if they were connected to Koko?

 

[query grind]

Sorry the only early reading I did was in English language pubs. The only reference lately I recall was the Skype call but it is possible at that time someone came up with some Italian language articles. If I find that conversation, which revolved around the oddity that Rudi wouldn't have made up a story to cover his semen being found if he had left any behind, I'll let you know.

Perhaps katy_did or one of the other Italian speakers can provide early Italian reports that include what you are asking for.

ETA - I don't recall ever deleting an article on anything and certainly not on this subject.

Could you provide your source on the Sophie relationship and his connections? Thanks in advance.

Off the top of my head there is her statement of 3 November 2007

Among recent acquaintances I can refer to a young man called Hicham who I have mentioned previously.
Hicham has tried on several occasions to hug me and to kiss me and I had always refused until last Wednesday, the date when I let him kiss me.

Sometime later she was a bit more explicit.

Hicham Khiri's testimony has him working for Gennaro Cruliano in his pizzaria.

The two brothers were arrested in late 2014 on suspicion of involvement in the 'Ndrangheta
Here
http://www.lanazione.it/umbria/merlin-covo-capi-piovra-1.479863

Perugia, December 11, 2014 - BETWEEN LOCAL subject to seizure as part of the 'Fourth step' is the 'Pubs Merlin ", in the heart of Perugia, Via del Forno a few steps from the City. And 'what - according to surveys of the ROS Carabinieri - one of the meeting places between the' Ndrangheta group and the stick heads: the Farao. The place, according to investigators, is notionally payable to other would actually attributable to the brothers Daniel and Gennaro Crugliano.

http://www.perugiatoday.it/cronaca/arresti-ndrangheta-perugia-lista-nomi.html
May have only been house arrest. I haven't heard of any charges since then.

 

[bagels]

Fact is, Filomena and her three companions arrived circa 12:55, having driven at top speed from a Day of the Dead fair after Filomena rang Amanda (note: not the other way round) and she told her the place was in chaos.

Within about five to ten minutes of arriving Luca kicked the door down. The Postal Police said they did not have the authority. They were further, lulled into a false state of calm by Amanda assuring them Mez' door was always locked.

Please advise which aspect of these facts you dispute.

The fact is Marco Zaroli was still home at 12:45 when he called Luca Altieri to confirm the pick up. Even if Luca was immediately outside to pick him up the drive time from Marco's to the cottage puts them there after 12:55, and they arrived a little before Filomena.

You need to accept that your PGP talking points were disproved in this thread ages ago and multiple times over and that the people posting here are not delusional dimwits reciting a PR pamphlet but are informed participants aware of the facts. I'm sorry they don't agree with you.

 

[Vixen]

In Washington state his arrest probably would have been for either 1st or 2nd degree burglary, both felonies. In truth he would be in jail awaiting trial so Meredith wouldn't have been murdered in the first place.

When putting forward a hypothesis, you need to name your assumptions.

Your assumptions appear to be:

1. Rudy was the sole killer.

2. Rudy was an interrupted burglar.

You also should have stated neither of these assumptions were upheld in ANY court.

IOW you may just as well put forward a hypothesis the moon is cheese, and what's more it's gorgonzola.

 

[query grind]

AIUI the police had one or two other leads, apart from Patrick. A man was seen covered in blood screaming, "I've killed her! I've killed her!" and was seen washing in a fountain. This was a false lead. He turned out to be a junkie who was having some kind of crisis.

That was Daniele de Luna. It wasn't a false lead, he was just too white to be prosecuted

The other lead IIRC was from Amanda and Raff in the questura, who kept voicing their suspicions it was a fellow named 'Shaky' (= not Hicham).

No, no, that was Hicham Khiri. He just came afterwards and did some clean up. He was the one who left the Nike shoeprints.

 

[bagels]

Bagels, I really, really know this stuff. They don't hold people here for a low level crime for more than three days. He didn't commit theft with the knife, since he didn't leave the premises with it. Just like putting an item in your pocket at a store isn't shoplifting unless you leave the store.

The laptop isn't worth over $750 used. Recently the King County Prosecutor raised the felony threshold to $5000 because of funding issues.

By this logic nobody could ever be convicted of burglary. If they're on the premise no theft has occurred. If they're off, it's possession.

 

[bagels]

When putting forward a hypothesis, you need to name your assumptions.

Your assumptions appear to be:

1. Rudy was the sole killer.

2. Rudy was an interrupted burglar.

You also should have stated neither of these assumptions were upheld in ANY court.

IOW you may just as well put forward a hypothesis the moon is cheese, and what's more it's gorgonzola.

Rudy was the only killer proven to have participated in the murder. If he is in jail, then the only killer proven to have killed her isn't available to kill her. I hope this helps.

 

[Vixen]

Their call to HQ lasted from 13:26 to 13:29. When HQ called them back at 13:35 they had found the cottage in the meantime. Thus the carabinieri arrived at the cottage between 13:29 and 13:35. The CCTV showed them arriving at the cottage at 13:22. Thus the CCTV clock is between 7 and 12 minutes slow. I hope this helps.

Once again, misinformation. When HQ called back at 13:35, the carabinieri had been there almost ten minutes. IIRC their arrival time was circa 13:26.

Nice try in putting the clock forward ten minutes to suit your agenda.

 

[Vixen]

You are saying the local Carabinieri started the investigation by not being able to find an address?

Are you sure you are not confusing the Carabineiri with the Postals?

That's right. Apparently it was not uncommon for people to have difficulty finding via 7 Pergola.