Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Mike1711]

And what does it say when there is evidence of presence of only two people?

Two people fighting in a room of around 8m2 is going to result in a lot of furniture damage. Unless one was so much stronger that the fight was one sided. Not expert opinion, just logic.

 

[LondonJohn]

Grinder,

Please explain what difference, under Italian law, there is between an acquittal under CPP Article 530.1, "the accused did not commit it", and CPP Article 530.2, "the judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal also in case of insufficient, contradictory or lacking proof that the...accused committed it" in light of CPP Article 533.1, "the judge shall deliver a judgment of conviction if the accused is proven guilty of the alleged offense beyond a reasonable doubt". Please be specific in terms of the legal difference that actually has an affect on the persons acquitted.

If you find that the there is no difference in legal effect, but a possible difference in how some persons perceive the verdict, please indicate that as well.

Clue: There is no procedural difference in the CPP (Code of Criminal Procedure) in the effect of either of these types of acquittal, for those found not to have committed the crime, whether under CPP Art. 530.1 or 530.2. In neither case can the acquitted be retried, and in neither case can they be subject to a new civil action for the crime for which they were acquitted by any party that joined the civil action to the criminal case.

Exactly. The whole of 530 is an anachronism that is left over from the former inquisitorial system. It's to the further incompetence and failings of the Italian legislators and those in its criminal justice system that this wasn't properly addressed and rectified well over a decade ago. I suspect they haven't got round to it because in reality it has little practical effect upon the administration of justice (or what they call justice there.....).

So we have this clumsy and redundant process whereby acquitting courts are still obliged to specify which para of 530 the acquittal sits under, when in reality there's no legal difference. But - as has been noted here many times before - Italian courts have seemingly adopted the practice of announcing a 530.1 verdict where either a) the court determines that the acquitted person(s) did not commit the crime by virtue of proving his/her/their innocence to the satisfaction of the court, or b) the court determines that no crime ever actually took place (again as mentioned before, a good example would be a rape trial where the court rules that what occurred was not a rape but instead was consensual sexual activity). And in ALL OTHER INSTANCES a 530.2 verdict is used.

But lastly, it's worth repeating loudly the fundamental point you make: there's now no difference in Italian law between a 530.1 acquittal and a 530.2 acquittal. And the whole of 530 should no longer even exist in the Italian Code. But it does, and what's more, acquitting judges are still (as a pointless legacy) required to state which para of 530 they have used in their acquittals. So they do. But it's pure semantics.

 

[Vixen]

I have no idea how Vixen thinks so I dunno.

But the passage quoted talks about things related to to 1) paganism (Samhain) 2) sex/eroticism and 3) murder. So... pagan sex murder seems like a fair 3 words to summarize it?



If by Halloween you simply mean it happened around Halloween then I guess... but that's not what Mignini is talking about. He is specifically talking about erotic games related to Samhain and talking about sex games and murder culture.

If you came across a broken window and a murder with only evidence of a single perp, you DON'T think it is "off the beam" to say, "Well it looks like a murder involving a 3 way erotic sex game related to Halloween, All Saints Day, and Samhain (links to neopaganism)!" ??



I don't know enough about MoF to say. I just remember Mignini hypothesizing a double body swap to explain some piece of evidence rather than simply admit he was mistaken -- shows what kind of person he is.



I still don't see how summarizing Mignini's thoughts as "Satanic rite" even if those were not the exact words he used in court is unfair. Seems a lot of reports described his hypothesis that way and "paganism, eroticism, murder games, occult, etc." isn't that far off (or far enough off to really matter here). And given the actual court transcripts, is it really unlikely he used the words "Satanic rite" at some point? So unlikely you think those other early reports (that say he used it) to be unbelievable? And does it really matter?

I can't see that the original Italian version mentions Samhain (Celtic) at all. However, I do not speak it.


Excerpt of the Italian:

E va sottolineato che, in ogni caso, per soggetti, morbosamente attratti dalla commistione di sesso e di violenza, è tutt’altro che inverosimile la connessione di tale progetto alla tradizione di Halloween, perché se è vero che la notte tra il 31 ottobre e il primo novembre era passata (e Meredith l’aveva trascorsa con le sue amiche connazionali), è altrettanto vero che, alle 21 circa del primo novembre e per le successive tre ore, si fosse ancora nella giornata di Ognissanti e che quello che non si fosse potuto realizzare nella notte di viglia della Festività dei Santi, si potesse realizzare nella notte di passaggio da quest’ultima alla Festività dei Defunti.


google translation:
In addition, the three and above Sollecito, were all employees from the suggestions "cultural" erotic - murderous of which we have spoken and that night it was still the day of the Saints Holiday, "Catholic heir" of the Celtic New Year Samhain, with all the implications who have their central point in the eve of the Feast, ie the night between October 31 and November 1,

In any case, my Wiccan friend who celebrates Celtic quarters such as Samhain, assures me paganism has nothing to do with satanism. They see themselves as "white witches" in touch with nature (as opposed to being anti-Christs).

I see no hidden meaning in Mignini putting it into the context of the time of year, an important day for Christians and very popular with students and people who love to dress up, as Mez did or into the context of modern moraes of people acting out their fantasies and going too far.

 

[LondonJohn]

It's sad when people don't realise that Halloween, far from being "an important day for Christians", is anything but. In fact the Catholic Church has long campaigned against any celebration of Halloween in Italy. The custom and practice of Halloween is, in fact, anathema and an insult to the Christian church the world over.

But then again: when you've got an agenda to pursue, truth and accuracy rather tend to fly out of the window. On a broomstick.

 

[Numbers]

One issue I see in some posts here is that there is a lack of skepticism about the claims of police and prosecutors, and of course Mignini and the Italian police specifically.

There seems to be a reluctance to accept that official misconduct is a real phenomenon that occurs in some cases, as a deliberate effort by the police and/or prosecutor, whatever the motivation may be.

To show evidence that such official misconduct occurs, here is an excerpt from a recent article dealing with the case of prosecutor Charles Sebasta in Texas, who was disbarred for official misconduct which resulted in the wrongful conviction of Anthony Graves for murder.

Prosecutor who sent innocent man to death row is disbarred
Updated 9:03 am, Tuesday, February 9, 2016

"In a ruling issued when [Charles] Sebesta was originally disbarred, the disciplinary panel found that he failed to provide several items of exculpatory evidence to the defense during [Anthony] Graves' trial, presented false testimony to the jury, made a false statement of material fact to the trial judge and engaged in conduct involving dishonesty, fraud, deceit or misrepresentation."

Source: http://www.chron.com/news/article/Disbarment-of-Texas-prosecutor-of-ex-death-row-6817491.php

Another issue with some posts is the lack of skepticism regarding conspiracies. Apparently, it is "skeptical" to always maintain, without any evidence, that there was no "conspiracy" among the prosecution and police in the Knox-Sollecito case, despite the many irregularities and procedural violations committed by the prosecution and police in the case. While it is not clear whether those posts are using the legal (US) definition of conspiracy* or some other, perhaps more grand and romantic concept, the basic argument appears to be that law enforcement officials do not engage in conspiracies. (*Two or more persons agree to commit an illegal act, and then at least one person commits an act - which by itself may be legal - in furtherance or support of the agreed illegal act.)

Here is a recent example of an apparent widespread conspiracy by members of a US law enforcement agency. The criminal acts may not have been labeled or charged as a conspiracy, but they involved a superior officer - a sheriff - ordering his deputies to commit certain offenses or irregularities to cover up other offenses or irregularities. Here are some excerpts from a news article. Notice that the news article specifically states that there was a plot by the law enforcement officials.

Source: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...sheriff-baca-jail-scandal-20160210-story.html

Ex-L.A. County Sheriff Lee Baca to plead guilty in jail scandal, his attorney says

"Retired Los Angeles County Sheriff Lee Baca will plead guilty in a downtown courtroom Wednesday to making false statements, marking a dramatic turn in the ongoing federal investigation into corruption in the Sheriff's Department.

"According to a charging document filed by federal prosecutors on Wednesday morning, Baca lied twice about his involvement in hiding an inmate from FBI agents who were investigating brutality and corruption by sheriff's deputies in the county jails.

"Baca also lied when he said he was unaware that his subordinates planned to approach an FBI special agent at her home, the document said.

"Baca, who ran the department for more than 15 years, retired in 2014 amid an FBI probe into misconduct and abuse by deputies in the county's jail system. So far, more than a dozen former sheriff's officials have been convicted as a result of the wide-ranging investigation, which began more than five years ago.

"In sketching out the case against [Undersheriff Paul] Tanaka, who resigned in 2013, and another former high-ranking official, prosecutors accused them of directing a group of deputies who were convicted of carrying out the plot to impede the FBI's investigation into misconduct at the jail."

 

[Vixen]

No, I'm saying there is no evidence of anyone else. Rudy left a half a dozen of his shoe prints whereas there are no others.

But now that you mention it, 4 people in that room is more than a little crowded.

Garofano is quoted in Darkness Descending describing how the fight progressed:

Pg 381-2: “The indication is the fight was fast. There aren’t many signs of a fight going on. The glass is still standing, the postcards on the chest of drawers are still there. No, there is not much sign of a fight. So the action moves from near the white desk around the room in anti-clockwise fashion to the area in front of the wardrobe.”

Liz Houle has written a truly excellent article about this, well worth a read:

http://truecrimespodcasts.com/2016/...ain-analysis-in-meredith-kercher-murder-case/

 

[Grinder]

Grinder,

Please explain what difference, under Italian law, there is between an acquittal under CPP Article 530.1, "the accused did not commit it", and CPP Article 530.2, "the judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal also in case of insufficient, contradictory or lacking proof that the...accused committed it" in light of CPP Article 533.1, "the judge shall deliver a judgment of conviction if the accused is proven guilty of the alleged offense beyond a reasonable doubt". Please be specific in terms of the legal difference that actually has an affect on the persons acquitted.

If you find that the there is no difference in legal effect, but a possible difference in how some persons perceive the verdict, please indicate that as well.

Clue: There is no procedural difference in the CPP (Code of Criminal Procedure) in the effect of either of these types of acquittal, for those found not to have committed the crime, whether under CPP Art. 530.1 or 530.2. In neither case can the acquitted be retried, and in neither case can they be subject to a new civil action for the crime for which they were acquitted by any party that joined the civil action to the criminal case.

With due respect and I mean it, I don't believe you are an expert in Italian law.

Besides the wording of the law para 1 and para 2 I will quote you this:

Since the acquittal is based on paragraph 2 of article 530 of the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure, which provides for a judge to pronounce a verdict of acquittal “when evidence is lacking, insufficient or contradictory”, it was to be expected that it would not have been a clearcut, one-sided proclamation of innocence.​

 

[Grinder]

Grinder,

Please give us your dictionary definition of "exonerate". In fact, Knox and Sollecito were exonerated twice on the murder/rape charges; first, in a preliminary judgment, by the Hellmann court verdict (annulling the Massei court conviction), and second, in a final, definitive judgment, but the Marasca CSC panel verdict (annulling the Nencini court verdict).

A definition of exonerate: to clear from accusation or blame
Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exonerate

If you believe that Knox and Sollecito were not exonerated by the Marasca CSC panel final and definitive verdict of acquittal, please explain in some detail how they are not fully cleared of the charges.

Please refer to actual Italian law, not to any person's interpretation of it. Please cite the actual articles of that law that support your position.

to clear, as of an accusation; free from guilt or blame; exculpate: He was exonerated from the accusation of cheating.

1. If the fact does not exist, if the accused has not committed, if the offense is not or is not required by law as a crime or if the offense was committed by a person not responsible [85 scp] or not punishable for a ' other reason, the court ruling of acquittal on their cause in the device [254 trans.].
2. The judge pronounces acquittal even when there is insufficient or contradictory evidence that the thing certain, that the accused committed it, that constitutes a criminal offense or the offense was committed by the person responsible.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

I can't see that the original Italian version mentions Samhain (Celtic) at all. However, I do not speak it.


Excerpt of the Italian:

E va sottolineato che, in ogni caso, per soggetti, morbosamente attratti dalla commistione di sesso e di violenza, è tutt’altro che inverosimile la connessione di tale progetto alla tradizione di Halloween, perché se è vero che la notte tra il 31 ottobre e il primo novembre era passata (e Meredith l’aveva trascorsa con le sue amiche connazionali), è altrettanto vero che, alle 21 circa del primo novembre e per le successive tre ore, si fosse ancora nella giornata di Ognissanti e che quello che non si fosse potuto realizzare nella notte di viglia della Festività dei Santi, si potesse realizzare nella notte di passaggio da quest’ultima alla Festività dei Defunti.


google translation:
In addition, the three and above Sollecito, were all employees from the suggestions "cultural" erotic - murderous of which we have spoken and that night it was still the day of the Saints Holiday, "Catholic heir" of the Celtic New Year Samhain, with all the implications who have their central point in the eve of the Feast, ie the night between October 31 and November 1,

???

In any case, my Wiccan friend who celebrates Celtic quarters such as Samhain, assures me paganism has nothing to do with satanism. They see themselves as "white witches" in touch with nature (as opposed to being anti-Christs).

That's all fine and dandy, but when you throw erotic murder games into the context I don't think our boy Miggy is talking about good Wiccan hippies that are in touch with nature.

I see no hidden meaning in Mignini putting it into the context of the time of year, an important day for Christians and very popular with students and people who love to dress up, as Mez did or into the context of modern moraes of people acting out their fantasies and going too far.

So you think Mignini meant to describe Amanda and Raffaele as enjoying Halloween so that they could play dress up, and he just happened to mention erotic murder games as an aside in the same paragraph?

 

[Grinder]

Exactly. The whole of 530 is an anachronism that is left over from the former inquisitorial system. It's to the further incompetence and failings of the Italian legislators and those in its criminal justice system that this wasn't properly addressed and rectified well over a decade ago. I suspect they haven't got round to it because in reality it has little practical effect upon the administration of justice (or what they call justice there.....).

Do you have anything to back this claim?

Regardless it is looked as a difference.

ETA - when the verdict came out the defense lawyers said it was a para 1 total exoneration.

 

[Vixen]

It's sad when people don't realise that Halloween, far from being "an important day for Christians", is anything but. In fact the Catholic Church has long campaigned against any celebration of Halloween in Italy. The custom and practice of Halloween is, in fact, anathema and an insult to the Christian church the world over.

But then again: when you've got an agenda to pursue, truth and accuracy rather tend to fly out of the window. On a broomstick.

Once again you spout off at half-cock. The Lutheran church (that is, virtually the whole of Scandinavia and Germany) marks 31st October as Martin Luther
Commemoration Day (the C16 priest, not his US C20 assassinated namesake). On the nearest Sunday, candles are lit in memory of departed loved ones. So, whilst Catholics may well eschew the celebration of quasi-witches abroad, and Raff declined to party, they do associate that time of the year with All Souls/Day of the Dead. 31st October is the eve. As per Jewish custom, on which many Christian customs are based, a religious festival starts on the eve of the day before.

From wiki:

According to one account, Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses to the door of All Saints' Church in Wittenberg on 31 October 1517, sparking the Reformation. The Latin inscription above informs the reader that the original door was destroyed by a fire, and that in 1857, King Frederick William IV of Prussia ordered the replacement be made. Luther's theses were engraved into today's bronze gate (pictured).

 

[acbytesla]

In any case, my Wiccan friend who celebrates Celtic quarters such as Samhain, assures me paganism has nothing to do with satanism. They see themselves as "white witches" in touch with nature (as opposed to being anti-Christs).

I see no hidden meaning in Mignini putting it into the context of the time of year, an important day for Christians and very popular with students and people who love to dress up, as Mez did or into the context of modern moraes of people acting out their fantasies and going too far.

This is of course from the Wiccan view of their own religion. Not from age old Catholic view of Wiccan. To many deeply religious Catholics, you are either on the side of Christ or on the side of the Devil or Antichrist.

 

[acbytesla]

Garofano is quoted in Darkness Descending describing how the fight progressed:

Pg 381-2: “The indication is the fight was fast. There aren’t many signs of a fight going on. The glass is still standing, the postcards on the chest of drawers are still there. No, there is not much sign of a fight. So the action moves from near the white desk around the room in anti-clockwise fashion to the area in front of the wardrobe.”

Liz Houle has written a truly excellent article about this, well worth a read:

http://truecrimespodcasts.com/2016/...ain-analysis-in-meredith-kercher-murder-case/

And how would Garofano know? That's right, neither he nor Liz Houle have a clue.

 

[Vixen]

???



That's all fine and dandy, but when you throw erotic murder games into the context I don't think our boy Miggy is talking about good Wiccan hippies that are in touch with nature.



So you think Mignini meant to describe Amanda and Raffaele as enjoying Halloween so that they could play dress up, and he just happened to mention erotic murder games as an aside in the same paragraph?

Mignini was pointing out that to a gullible person in a fantasy world, the time of year could have been a trigger for acting out fantasy. Raff had vampire slaying fantasies, Rudy made a video in which he jeered, "I am a vampire and I'll drink your blood."

Amanda was all dressed up on Halloween with nowhere to go.

In her email to the world she made a point of mentioning Mez' vampire makeup running down her chin, and Raff mentioned it in police statements, too, so was obviously something they focused on.

Raff has a massive tattoo on his shoulder of a dark figure known in manga as 'Devilman', which was also the same password Rudy used on his computer.

Why wouldn't Mignini make a note of this?

 

[Vixen]

And how would Garofano know? That's right, neither he nor Liz Houle have a clue.

He knew from blood spatter analysis and crime reconstruction from forensics.

Read the article and learn how forensic science works.

 

[Methos]

Garofano is quoted in Darkness Descending describing how the fight progressed:

Pg 381-2: “The indication is the fight was fast. There aren’t many signs of a fight going on. The glass is still standing, the postcards on the chest of drawers are still there. No, there is not much sign of a fight. So the action moves from near the white desk around the room in anti-clockwise fashion to the area in front of the wardrobe.”

Liz Houle has written a truly excellent article about this, well worth a read:

http://truecrimespodcasts.com/2016/...ain-analysis-in-meredith-kercher-murder-case/

Could you please point me to the transcript of Col. Garofano's testimony?
What is Liz Houle's - in your mind excellent - clickbait piece of copy and paste, supposed to tell me?

 

[Vixen]

This is of course from the Wiccan view of their own religion. Not from age old Catholic view of Wiccan. To many deeply religious Catholics, you are either on the side of Christ or on the side of the Devil or Antichrist.

Zooterkin says we are not allowed to talk religion, so I'll just quote Shakespeare's Hamlet 2:2 instead:

"Nothing's either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

 

[Vixen]

Two people fighting in a room of around 8m2 is going to result in a lot of furniture damage. Unless one was so much stronger that the fight was one sided. Not expert opinion, just logic.

One person was restrained. Read Massei.

 

[Grinder]

.

Raff has a massive tattoo on his shoulder of a dark figure known in manga as 'Devilman', which was also the same password Rudy used on his computer.

Why wouldn't Mignini make a note of this?

I didn't see reference to this in the trial, strange.

Perhaps in backward old Italy computers come with "Devilman" as the default.

I'd ask for a cite but I sense a tidal-wave coming.

 

[Vixen]

Could you please point me to the transcript of Col. Garofano's testimony?
What is Liz Houle's - in your mind excellent - clickbait piece of copy and paste, supposed to tell me?

It tells us that we can assess exactly where the fatal wound was adminstered, from the expirated blood spatter on the wardrobe door. Garofano points out that there is a lack of voluminous blood on the furnishings where one would expect it when the knife was extracted, and therefore, the killer must have got drenched by it. As Mez was 15" from the floor, this would have spurted over the killer's lower legs.

Extrapolating from this, you'll note, the footprint found with the biggest splodge of blood, is that on the bathmat and analysed as being incompatible with Amanda and Rudy but extremely compatible with Raff.

Confused? You won't be once you've read the article.