• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

Status
Not open for further replies.
The original question was Amanda really nice. Not whether or not if kids from middle class backgrounds could grow up to do horrible things.

I'm glad you're not comparing the experiences of the Manson Family and that of Amanda Knox. Because they don't compare. The Mansons had been living in a quasi commune but instead of "working" the Spahn ranch they were burglarizing homes (like Rudy) No one had an actual job or learning a third language (like Amanda) or going to college (like Amanda and Raffaele) The Mansons all knew each other well actually living together and all spoke the same language. The drug use doesn't compare either even though you continue to represent Knox as a druggie because of her occasional use of cannabis. The Mansons were constantly taking anything and everything including heavy use of psychedelics particularly LSD and Peyote.

It really matters little what the Mansons were like when they were children, it was clear to everyone they weren't anything like that when they were arrested. They came off totally crazy, something no one would say about Amanda or Raffaele.

I've never seen a real life crime anything like the one that you and the other guilters suggest happened.

Maybe you should reconsider.

OK, fair enough. However, there are some similarities. There's the element of fantasy, a vision of the Beatles' 'Helter Skelter' that had them writing things on the wall in the victims' blood, such as "Kill the pigs", the bizarre and irreverent behaviour of the defendants in court, smiling and laughing (cf Amanda in her 'All You Need is Love' t-shirt) and in addition, killing all these upright decent people with the strategy of blaming it all on black gangs (cf Amanda and Raff strategy of blaming Patrick and Rudy).
 
Vixen you've given a long paste of some document but still haven't said exactly what Mignini or the PLE were saying motivated the murder.

Would this be an accurate description? The PLE believed Ms Kercher may have been killed after refusing to take part in a violent orgy. Police consider the case closed.
 
OK, fair enough. However, there are some similarities. There's the element of fantasy, a vision of the Beatles' 'Helter Skelter' that had them writing things on the wall in the victims' blood, such as "Kill the pigs", the bizarre and irreverent behaviour of the defendants in court, smiling and laughing (cf Amanda in her 'All You Need is Love' t-shirt) and in addition, killing all these upright decent people with the strategy of blaming it all on black gangs (cf Amanda and Raff strategy of blaming Patrick and Rudy).

Aside from being complete bunk, the main dissimilarity is that RS and AK never killed anyone. In your long cut and paste of the forensic report, at the Massei court 8 of nine experts said that none of that ruled out a single attacker.
 
Last edited:
Aside from being complete bunk, the main dissimilarity is that RS and AK never killed anyone. In your long cut and paste of the forensic report, at the Massei court 8 of nine experts said that none of that ruled out a single attacker.

I've seen you and others post this numerous times. Where does this fact originate? Have you read all nine experts' reports?

From Massei - The consultant further pointed out that when a subject struggles and writhes, and there is the possibility of struggling and writhing, the harm that is suffered is considerably greater than that found in this case. He pointed out, moreover, that everything had taken place in an area that was territorially fairly definite; therefore, the subject had not attempted to escape, to go into other rooms or any such thing. He also pointed out that there had not been a specific repetitiveness of the action: ‚if a subject carries out a harming/detrimental/damaging action he/she is compelled to reiterate the harming/detrimental/damaging action in qualitatively analogous terms‛; in this case, on the contrary, there had been several harmful actions, *which had been] reiterated, but [were] each different from the other. All this led to the conclusion that one single person could not have carried out all the harmful actions which had occurred in this case.

I haven't seen the nine reports. Did the experts say that more than one attacker was possible under cross or did they include it in their reports?

ETA - Of course the other part of your post begs the question. They weren't killers because they never killed anybody.
 
Last edited:
I've seen you and others post this numerous times. Where does this fact originate? Have you read all nine experts' reports?

From Massei - The consultant further pointed out that when a subject struggles and writhes, and there is the possibility of struggling and writhing, the harm that is suffered is considerably greater than that found in this case. He pointed out, moreover, that everything had taken place in an area that was territorially fairly definite; therefore, the subject had not attempted to escape, to go into other rooms or any such thing. He also pointed out that there had not been a specific repetitiveness of the action: ‚if a subject carries out a harming/detrimental/damaging action he/she is compelled to reiterate the harming/detrimental/damaging action in qualitatively analogous terms‛; in this case, on the contrary, there had been several harmful actions, *which had been] reiterated, but [were] each different from the other. All this led to the conclusion that one single person could not have carried out all the harmful actions which had occurred in this case.

I haven't seen the nine reports. Did the experts say that more than one attacker was possible under cross or did they include it in their reports?

ETA - Of course the other part of your post begs the question. They weren't killers because they never killed anybody.

IIRC it comes from Massei's conclusionary statement, where he says he comes to the finding of multiple attackers on other grounds than the forensics.
 
IIRC it comes from Massei's conclusionary statement, where he says he comes to the finding of multiple attackers on other grounds than the forensics.
It's 6 out of 7 ;)
Dr. Lalli (Massei pg 116) said:
He excluded, finally, that the biological data alone could indicate the presence and action of several people against the victim.
Dr. Liviero said:
As for the dynamic of the homicide, with particular reference to whether the action was performed by one or more persons, Dr. Liviero ruled out the existence of scientific elements that would allow us to formulate a response to this question.
Professor Bacci said:
He indicated that the biological data did not allow for a determination of whether the injuries were caused by one person or by several people, claiming they were compatible with both possibilities
Professor Norelli said:
All this led to the conclusion that one single person could not have carried out all the harmful actions which had occurred in this case.
Professor Introna said:
He also stated that the action was that of a single attacker.
Professor Torre said:
He maintained that " in any case there is nothing there which could lead me to think that there was more than one attacker"
Prof Cingolani said:
He was unable to provide an explanation for such a disproportion, which he held to be compatible with the presence of more than one person, but also with the action of a sole person who acts in a progressive manner
 
It's 6 out of 7 ;)

IIRC Massei indicated that more than one could be concluded from the forensics and other evidence.

What you didn't elucidate was how these statements were extracted? I'm amazed that even one expert maintain it had to be multiple attackers.

Of course, multiple attackers doesn't equal A&R. M&B absolutely believe multiple attackers but said there wasn't evidence it was the kids.

Please tell me you had those quotes on file and didn't just put it together in 5 minutes. :p

ETA - Can't believe Itrona and Torre insisted they could tell it was only one person.
 
Last edited:
IIRC Massei indicated that more than one could be concluded from the forensics and other evidence.

What you didn't elucidate was how these statements were extracted? I'm amazed that even one expert maintain it had to be multiple attackers.

Of course, multiple attackers doesn't equal A&R. M&B absolutely believe multiple attackers but said there wasn't evidence it was the kids.

Please tell me you had those quotes on file and didn't just put it together in 5 minutes. :p
The quotes are Massei's summing up of what the experts had either said in court or submitted in their reports regarding to one or more assailants.
He then writes something like, you can't rely on the forensics alone and explains how it would be against Meredith Kercher's character to be overwhelmed by just one person...
Not on file, but I know where to find them http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11030171#post11030171 :D
 
Last edited:
It's 6 out of 7 ;)

I once counted 8 out of nine. Oh well. The whole issue is now hopelessly muddled because of the way Italy determines "judicial facts". For my money, and I could be wrong, Judge Hellmann's motivations report said it best. It was not his court's job to determine the issue of multiple attackers, just the question as to whether AK and/or RS were part of that judicially crated "multiple". He said they were not.

Part of the bizarre nature of all this is that here we are, almost a year from the exonerations still arguing this. Perhaps the only reason at this point to address it at all is that Rudy Guede seems set - and seems to have some support - to push all this back into Italy's public eye.

Raffaele seems set to say, "not so fast." If ever anyone has doubted that Raffaele pairs his own innocence with Knox's innocence, Raffaele seems prepared to get Rudy into court to repeat his RAI3 claims...... where Raffaele is never once explicitly named.

How would each fare in cross-examination? My guess is that Rudy would cave in well before it got there, but that's only a guess.
 
IIRC Massei indicated that more than one could be concluded from the forensics and other evidence.

What you didn't elucidate was how these statements were extracted? I'm amazed that even one expert maintain it had to be multiple attackers.

Of course, multiple attackers doesn't equal A&R. M&B absolutely believe multiple attackers but said there wasn't evidence it was the kids.

Please tell me you had those quotes on file and didn't just put it together in 5 minutes. :p

ETA - Can't believe Itrona and Torre insisted they could tell it was only one person.
IIRC you are correct that only a few (maybe those two) said that multiple assailants could be ruled out. Only one, the prosecution expert, said that a single attacker could be ruled out. The rest said that neither scenario could be ruled out.

There it sits. Massei, in effect, has been annulled anyway - and in grand Italian fashion it's not clear what it is about Massei that has been annulled, other than his verdict of guilty.
 
One issue I see in some posts here is that there is a lack of skepticism about the claims of police and prosecutors, and of course Mignini and the Italian police specifically.

There seems to be a reluctance to accept that official misconduct is a real phenomenon that occurs in some cases, as a deliberate effort by the police and/or prosecutor, whatever the motivation may be.

To show evidence that such official misconduct occurs, here is an excerpt from a recent article dealing with the case of prosecutor Charles Sebasta in Texas, who was disbarred for official misconduct which resulted in the wrongful conviction of Anthony Graves for murder.

Prosecutor who sent innocent man to death row is disbarred
Updated 9:03 am, Tuesday, February 9, 2016

"In a ruling issued when [Charles] Sebesta was originally disbarred, the disciplinary panel found that he failed to provide several items of exculpatory evidence to the defense during [Anthony] Graves' trial, presented false testimony to the jury, made a false statement of material fact to the trial judge and engaged in conduct involving dishonesty, fraud, deceit or misrepresentation."

Source: http://www.chron.com/news/article/Disbarment-of-Texas-prosecutor-of-ex-death-row-6817491.php
 
Vixen you've given a long paste of some document but still haven't said exactly what Mignini or the PLE were saying motivated the murder.

Would this be an accurate description? The PLE believed Ms Kercher may have been killed after refusing to take part in a violent orgy. Police consider the case closed.

Grinder,
From the trial transcript, statements by Mignini:

“It should be emphasized that, in any case, for those pathologically addicted to the commission of sex and violence, it is not far-fetched to connect the project to the tradition of Halloween, because if it is true that the night between October 31 and November 1 was passed (and Meredith had spent with her friends and fellows), it is equally true that, at 9 pm circa of the first of November and for the next three hours, it was still the day of All Saints’ Day and what you do not was able to achieve on the eve night of Holiday of the Saints, could be realized in the night to pass from the last one to the “Holiday of the deads”.

“Moreover, the three, and especially Sollecito, were all addicted to the suggestions of erotic – mudering “culture”, which has previosly been discussed and that night it was still the day of the Holiday of Saints, “inheritor” of the Catholic Samhain Celtic New Year, with all the implications that have their central point in the Holiday eve, that is the night between October 31 and November 1."


Is this what you are looking for?
 
Last edited:
Grinder,
From the trial transcript, statements by Mignini:

“It should be emphasized that, in any case, for those pathologically addicted to the commission of sex and violence, it is not far-fetched to connect the project to the tradition of Halloween, because if it is true that the night between October 31 and November 1 was passed (and Meredith had spent with her friends and fellows), it is equally true that, at 9 pm circa of the first of November and for the next three hours, it was still the day of All Saints’ Day and what you do not was able to achieve on the eve night of Holiday of the Saints, could be realized in the night to pass from the last one to the “Holiday of the deads”.

“Moreover, the three, and especially Sollecito, were all addicted to the suggestions of erotic – mudering “culture”, which has previosly been discussed and that night it was still the day of the Holiday of Saints, “inheritor” of the Catholic Samhain Celtic New Year, with all the implications that have their central point in the Holiday eve, that is the night between October 31 and November 1."


Is this what you are looking for?

Thanks. I did read that at the beginning of the tome Vixen posted. I'm trying to get Vixen to say what she thinks Mignini's theory was. IOW take the above and reword to clarify.

Mignini like many or most Italians, at least those in LE, seem to attempt to make up for their third world upbringing by using large words and run-on sentences.
 
IIRC you are correct that only a few (maybe those two) said that multiple assailants could be ruled out. Only one, the prosecution expert, said that a single attacker could be ruled out. The rest said that neither scenario could be ruled out.

There it sits. Massei, in effect, has been annulled anyway - and in grand Italian fashion it's not clear what it is about Massei that has been annulled, other than his verdict of guilty.

Was Massei annulled or only Nencini?

Btw, they weren't exonerated that would have been a paragraph one acquittal. M&B don't say that even if all evidence presented was serious, precise, and consistent they were innocent. What they do say is the evidence was so compromised, partially because of the media focus causing them to hurry, that no guilty verdict is possible BARD.
 
OK, fair enough. However, there are some similarities. There's the element of fantasy, a vision of the Beatles' 'Helter Skelter' that had them writing things on the wall in the victims' blood, such as "Kill the pigs", the bizarre and irreverent behaviour of the defendants in court, smiling and laughing (cf Amanda in her 'All You Need is Love' t-shirt) and in addition, killing all these upright decent people with the strategy of blaming it all on black gangs (cf Amanda and Raff strategy of blaming Patrick and Rudy).

You stretch the actual facts and then throw in your own fantasy. Neither Amanda or Raffaele ever blamed Rudy and Amanda said Patrick wasn't involved within hours and only said he was through coercion. Raffaele never blamed either. You act as if they blamed them forever.

Why the need to embellish?
 
IIRC you are correct that only a few (maybe those two) said that multiple assailants could be ruled out. Only one, the prosecution expert, said that a single attacker could be ruled out. The rest said that neither scenario could be ruled out.

There it sits. Massei, in effect, has been annulled anyway - and in grand Italian fashion it's not clear what it is about Massei that has been annulled, other than his verdict of guilty.


I think everyone's looking past the obvious at this point.

The obvious is this: from a forensic medical standpoint, it's abundantly clear that this murder is compatible with a single attacker or multiple attackers.

And the other point to note is that virtually every murder carried out in the absence of disinterested witnesses is "compatible", in theory, with multiple attackers. Even where the victim is killed by (e.g.) a single bullet to the head, a second criminal might have been standing right next to the shooter, egging him on. And that second person would be equally culpable of murder. Likewise, if someone is (e.g.) kicked to death with multiple kicks to the face and body, such an act will almost always be compatible with either one or multiple perps (up to an almost unlimited number for that example, if one's imagination runs wild enough....).

The important thing in the Kercher case is that some ignorant, ill-informed judges came to the bone-headed "conclusion" that since (in their ill-advised view) Kercher would have necessarily tried to fight back no matter what, the very absence of the additional wounds she probably would have suffered in such a struggle means that a) she must have been restrained by more than one person in order to enable another person to inflict the stab wounds, and therefore b) more than one person must necessarily have been involved in this attack/murder.

It shouldn't need to be pointed out that this "reasoning" is as dreadful and illogical as....well.....as the fine mind (also Massei) that brought us the stunning decision that if Capezzali says she heard a scream, then there must actually have BEEN a scream (otherwise why would Capezzali say she heard a scream?) :rolleyes:

The truth is as follows: it is entirely possible - likely, in fact - for a person of Guede's build, carrying and brandishing a sharp knife, to have quickly convinced Kercher to adopt a submissive, passive role. This is basic psychology - and it's been used by violent criminals (especially sex criminals) since time immemorial. A larger, more powerful, much heavier man with a deadly weapon can almost always force a smaller, weaker, weaponless woman into submission. The classic "convincer" (though often not even needed) is to tell the victim something along the lines of "If you do what I say, keep quiet and don't struggle, I won't hurt you.... but if you try to fight back or scream out, I'll kill you".

Given that choice, and given the general odds, a very large proportion of women will choose the option of cooperation and submission (since the alternative - the promise/threat of being attacked with the knife - appears disastrously worse. And this is exactly how many rapists, robbers and sadistic killers get their victims to comply - IIRC, the "BTK" killer, Dennis Rader, even got his victims to tie themselves up. They didn't know what his true intentions were of course.

And in Kercher's case, there's zero reason to believe that she must have suspected that Guede was going to harm her - whether sexually or more generally. By contrast, it's easy to think that Kercher might have decided that complying with Guede's orders passively was going to result in him getting her keys, taking her money and other valuables, then maybe tying her up and leaving. And given that she was almost certainly cornered by Guede, she very probably also thought that any attempt to escape - or even get into any sort of struggle - would be futile, and could only therefore lead to a very bad outcome for her. Furthermore, the relative remoteness of the cottage, and the fact that nobody was anywhere near, would have made Kercher think that it was unlikely that her screams would alert anyone (and that even if her screams did alert someone outside the cottage, it would take too long for them to get there or summon help).

All in all, therefore, it would have been an entirely logical decision for Kercher to have complied submissively with Guede's demands. Even when he ordered/forced her onto all fours, she probably thought this was a precursor to being tied up or placed into that position while Guede escaped. It was only (IMO) when Guede undid Kercher's jeans and commenced a sexual assault that Kercher knew Guede's real intentions. And IMO that's precisely when - and why - she DID start to struggle and scream out. Which in turn led to the horrific conclusion.
 
Was Massei annulled or only Nencini?

Btw, they weren't exonerated that would have been a paragraph one acquittal. M&B don't say that even if all evidence presented was serious, precise, and consistent they were innocent. What they do say is the evidence was so compromised, partially because of the media focus causing them to hurry, that no guilty verdict is possible BARD.


Nope.

The Marasca panel didn't leave anything like this sort of room for equivocation. In fact, the verdict was that there was zero credible. reliable evidence pointing to the guilt of Knox or Sollecito (and that this was due in part to the horrific bungling of the investigation etc). You're making it sound like it was a close-run thing as to whether the BARD standard had been reached by the prosecution or not. The annulment of the process also makes it clear that the Marasca panel regards this from being so far away from a BARD case that it will never be possible (or reasonable) for any fair court to try Knox or Sollecito for the murder again.

And again, on 530.1 vs 530.2, I think your interpretation is incorrect. But since I know you'll continue to disagree, I won't bother to elaborate again :)
 
Was Massei annulled or only Nencini?

Btw, they weren't exonerated that would have been a paragraph one acquittal. M&B don't say that even if all evidence presented was serious, precise, and consistent they were innocent. What they do say is the evidence was so compromised, partially because of the media focus causing them to hurry, that no guilty verdict is possible BARD.

Where's Numbers when you need him? Or LondonJohn? One of those gentlefolk claim that in essence there is no difference between paragraph 1 and paragraph 2. Neither you nor I am expert in Italian law or verdicts. There are people on the scene in Italy very comfortable using the word "exonerated".

As to whether or not it was Massei or Nencini which was annulled, it's probably moot.

Hellmann's court, in effect, annulled Massei's verdict. Chieffi's ISC panel annulled Hellmann's verdict. In both annulments it is unclear, really, which parts of the respective motivation reports suffered the same fate. IMO the Conti-Vecchiotti report survived the Chieffi annulment of Hellmann, if only that Judge Nencini felt forced to deal with the C&V conclusions, if only so as to proclaim that Stefanoni's conclusions were preferable.

The Bruno/Marasca finding annulled Nencini's verdict, and presumably all the findings within both the Massei and Nencini courts which they claimed added up to guilt BARD.

At this point I was going to close with that snarky ISF-tease, "Are we clear now." But heck, none of this is clear with annulments overlaid upon annulments overlaid upon annulments.

Wanna talk about Satanic-cult conspiracies instead? At least that is clear! :p
 
Nope.

The Marasca panel didn't leave anything like this sort of room for equivocation. In fact, the verdict was that there was zero credible. reliable evidence pointing to the guilt of Knox or Sollecito (and that this was due in part to the horrific bungling of the investigation etc). You're making it sound like it was a close-run thing as to whether the BARD standard had been reached by the prosecution or not. The annulment of the process also makes it clear that the Marasca panel regards this from being so far away from a BARD case that it will never be possible (or reasonable) for any fair court to try Knox or Sollecito for the murder again.
And again, on 530.1 vs 530.2, I think your interpretation is incorrect. But since I know you'll continue to disagree, I won't bother to elaborate again :)

The refusal of the Marasca/Bruno panel to remand to another appeal's court is key here. The phrase you use, LJ, here is key: "the Marasca panel regards this from being so far away from a BARD case that it will never be possible (or reasonable) for any fair court to try Knox or Sollecito for the murder again."

If the M/B panel had deemed factual any of the things which the remaining guilters cling to, why then no remand?

Oh right - conspiracy. Somehow Marriott from Seattle got to the Italian Supreme Court.

The only conclusion, really, is that M/B deemed everything bunk from the git-go - in the context of not being seen to violate "judicial truths" generated by former courts of status equal to the M/B panel.
 
Last edited:
Where's Numbers when you need him? Or LondonJohn? One of those gentlefolk claim that in essence there is no difference between paragraph 1 and paragraph 2. Neither you nor I am expert in Italian law or verdicts. There are people on the scene in Italy very comfortable using the word "exonerated".

LJ has chimed in. There clearly is a difference and Cheli an Italian well versed in legal issues, a long time FOA and one that has been regarded highly by PIP, made the point in his article. Nothing has been presented to refute that by anyone with credentials equal to Cheli or really with any credentials.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom