Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[bagels]

Has it ever crossed your mind that Stefanoni and her team were perfectly objective in her findings and it is your theory of a "conspiracy to frame the kids" which is absurd?

There are three facts that by themselves should at least raise questions:

1. Prior to Knox's arrest Stefanoni and her forensic team found zero evidence against the students. None. Their early forensic examination lead them to believe Meredith was attacked by a male using a small penknife. After the police beat a confession out of Knox and declared her a murderer to the entire world, they - luckily for them! - finally managed to "find" evidence against her.

2. Stefanoni suppressed the results of various tests which favored the defense, specifically the TMB blood tests.

3. Stefanoni is to my knowledge the only forensic scientist in the world that has ever found DNA from the victim on a knife, but no blood.

And these are just ancillary facts to the main case.

Bad forensics might get a pass, for better or worse, if you have someone who is obviously guilty. Maybe Ted Bundy's lawyer says this LCN DNA could be contaminated. We all roll our eyes and go whatever. But if you're going to take an obviously innocent girl and throw her in prison for life for a crime clearly committed by the town burglar it's best to have some real evidence.

 

[acbytesla]

There are three facts that by themselves should at least raise questions:

1. Prior to Knox's arrest Stefanoni and her forensic team found zero evidence against the students. None. Their early forensic examination lead them to believe Meredith was attacked by a male using a small penknife. After the police beat a confession out of Knox and declared her a murderer to the entire world, they - luckily for them! - finally managed to "find" evidence against her.

2. Stefanoni suppressed the results of various tests which favored the defense, specifically the TMB blood tests.

3. Stefanoni is to my knowledge the only forensic scientist in the world that has ever found DNA from the victim on a knife, but no blood.

And these are just ancillary facts to the main case.

Bad forensics might get a pass, for better or worse, if you have someone who is obviously guilty. Maybe Ted Bundy's lawyer says this LCN DNA could be contaminated. We all roll our eyes and go whatever. But if you're going to take an obviously innocent girl and throw her in prison for life for a crime clearly committed by the town burglar it's best to have some real evidence.

And Stefanoni is the only person to ever to find any incriminating DNA against Amanda or Raffaele.She also refuses full discovery. How does one trust actions like that?

 

[Vixen]

You absolutely refuse to open your eyes. You say that Amanda is a sociopath and that sociopaths don't have close relationships with people. Have you paid any attention at all to Amanda Knox? She has kept close relationships with countless people. Many since she was a child. Her friends are fiercely loyal. Sociopaths don't have friends like that. At best they have are good time acquaintances. Not people who stick by them.

You weave an interesting tale but it's all a bunch of nonsense with zero relationship to the truth.

How do you know 'Amanda's friends are fiercely loyal'? I sense this is just a soundbite you just made up. I suspect you are talking about friends of Curt, Chris and Edda. Are you SURE you're not getting paid for spin?

 

[NotEvenWrong]

How do you know 'Amanda's friends are fiercely loyal'? I sense this is just a soundbite you just made up. I suspect you are talking about friends of Curt, Chris and Edda. Are you SURE you're not getting paid for spin?

Well, Vixen, how about you answer this first: How do you know Amanda is a sociopath and doesn't have close relationships with people? Think about this really hard.

Also, got a chuckle out of this

I sense this is just a soundbite you just made up. I suspect you are talking about friends of Curt, Chris and Edda. Are you SURE you're not getting paid for spin?

What were you saying about soundbites Vixen? Where have you heard that Knox supporters are paid shills? I seem to have heard that once or twice in the past....

(What's awesome is I don't even know if Vixen is aware she has been co-opted by the Anti-Amanda She-Devil campaign.)

 

[christianahannah]

Like the stuff you bring up is all new and fresh.

If Mignini didn't claim it was a rite of some sort what did he claim? Not in a Google translated page but what you believe he said.

We were talking about the early claims as well as the later ones.

Bizarrely this isn't a transcript from the court but Mignini's prepared statement. How odd that PGP site has it. Very odd, indeed.

I don't think this was from the Matteni hearing but was from the Micheli hearing.

I think I first saw this on Raffaele's defense site (but am not totally certain). Wherever I first saw this it was before the Meredith Wiki was created and the transcript was in Italian (it did not look like the document Vixen linked).

ETA: Here is the link on the Meredith Wiki but this is not where I first saw the document.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c...10-18-Notes-Mignini-for-closing-arguments.pdf

 

[LondonJohn]

Like the stuff you bring up is all new and fresh.

If Mignini didn't claim it was a rite of some sort what did he claim? Not in a Google translated page but what you believe he said.

We were talking about the early claims as well as the later ones.

Bizarrely this isn't a transcript from the court but Mignini's prepared statement. How odd that PGP site has it. Very odd, indeed.

Yes: a person could be forgiven for believing that a prosecuting magistrate in the Italian judiciary was improperly giving out material to an amateur website which happened to be useful to his purposes (owing to its highly partisan and pro-prosecution stance). Heaven forbid that could actually happen though!

 

[acbytesla]

How do you know 'Amanda's friends are fiercely loyal'? I sense this is just a soundbite you just made up. I suspect you are talking about friends of Curt, Chris and Edda. Are you SURE you're not getting paid for spin?

You make me sick. You accuse any and everyone who supports Amanda as dishonest and with ulterior motives. A large community of people gave of their time and money to support Amanda. The tabloids have been flashing cash in Seattle for any juicy story to anyone and they've come up with zilch.

Fellow students of Amanda from Seattle Prep held car washes and fundraisers. Madison Paxton flew to Italy and visited with her every day. The chaplain priest at the prison is very close to her and Amanda is an atheist I don't know Amanda, but I know people who do. She is loved here in Seattle. They are fiercely loyal to her.

She is not a sociopath. When do you acknowledge the facts and accept that your perception of her is false?

 

[LondonJohn]

And on the "satanic rites" matter, there appears to be a certain amount of credible evidence that Mignini originally intended to include this as part of imputed motive, but that others in the prosecutors' office dissuaded him from doing so. In addition, there's no doubt that in the early days (early-mid November 2007) many journalists were writing about satanic rituals, satanic orgies, the link to Halloween and so on, and it appears that a lot of this almost certainly came via briefings from police and/or prosecutors.

 

[LondonJohn]

You make me sick. You accuse any and everyone who supports Amanda as dishonest and with ulterior motives. A large community of people gave of their time and money to support Amanda. The tabloids have been flashing cash in Seattle for any juicy story to anyone and they've come up with zilch.

Fellow students of Amanda from Seattle Prep held car washes and fundraisers. Madison Paxton flew to Italy and visited with her every day. The chaplain priest at the prison is very close to her and Amanda is an atheist I don't know Amanda, but I know people who do. She is loved here in Seattle. They are fiercely loyal to her.

She is not a sociopath. When do you acknowledge the facts and accept that your perception of her is false?

Not worth getting frothed up about, AC. Knox is not a sociopath. She's never exhibited any sociopathic traits. I'd agree that if she HAD participated in the Kercher murder, then her actions around and since the time of the murder could be open to a certain amount of psychiatric interpretation. But since she didn't participate in the Kercher murder, that's a moot point.

I think you have to understand that to a large proportion of pro-guilt ARGUMENTS, it's a mandatory part of the narrative and raison-d'etre to NEED to demonise Knox and Sollecito, and in particular to find Knox to be a manipulative, cunning, evil bitch. It's all a crucial part of the warped observation and damaged thinking that concocts a belief in the guilt of Knox and Sollecito and then zealously guards and promotes that belief. But you, and I, and any reasonable person, know that such approaches are both a) spectacularly wrong and b) unsupported by any reliable, credible evidence. And the psychology/psychiatry underpinning this set of warped beliefs is fascinating in itself.

Anyhow, the take-home message is this: Knox is not a sociopath. And any false claims that she is a sociopath are the product of poor thinking, poor reasoning, and inability to assess evidence correctly and objectively.

 

[Bill Williams]

And on the "satanic rites" matter, there appears to be a certain amount of credible evidence that Mignini originally intended to include this as part of imputed motive, but that others in the prosecutors' office dissuaded him from doing so. In addition, there's no doubt that in the early days (early-mid November 2007) many journalists were writing about satanic rituals, satanic orgies, the link to Halloween and so on, and it appears that a lot of this almost certainly came via briefings from police and/or prosecutors.

So far that evidence is two cites, one from Barbie Nadeau and another from John Kercher, Snr.

It actually makes no difference, really. Then again, Mignini did not help himself when he attended and was invited to speak at......

 

[christianahannah]

Like the stuff you bring up is all new and fresh.

If Mignini didn't claim it was a rite of some sort what did he claim? Not in a Google translated page but what you believe he said.

We were talking about the early claims as well as the later ones.

Bizarrely this isn't a transcript from the court but Mignini's prepared statement. How odd that PGP site has it. Very odd, indeed.

http://www.raffaelesollecito.org/?page_id=612&lang=en

Here is Raffaele's site where I saw the Mignini document. Who had it first and distributed it freely I don't know. But both sides had access to it. I may have seen it even earlier in Charlie Wilkes list of documents.

 

[Bill Williams]

The New Scientist has a piece on sleep deprivation and false confessions.

While not needed now in the Sollecito/Knox cases, it will be one more finger in the dike of wrongful convictions....

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2076725-sleep-deprivation-linked-to-false-confession-in-milestone-study/

Guilters will have apoplexy when they read this......

“To the average person it’s inconceivable how a false confession can happen,” says Saul Kassin of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York, who has been an expert witness in dozens of wrongful conviction cases. He says the suspect usually sees it as a short-term measure, thinking that when all the evidence is in, their innocence will become obvious. “They believe that in the end they won’t have to pay for the confession.”

Such a gamble is hard for juries to understand, he says, but the latest study might help. In this, 88 people did various computer tasks as part of a fake experiment, then either slept for 8 hours or had to stay awake all night. The next morning they were accused of losing all the study data by pressing the “Escape” key, something they had been repeatedly warned against.

“It’s not as awful as confessing to murder but some of these people feel really bad – they think the experiment is ruined,” says Elizabeth Loftus of the University of California, Irvine, who took part in the work.

When asked to sign a statement admitting their guilt, half of those who were sleep deprived complied, compared with only 18 per cent of those who got a night’s rest.​

 

[Bill Williams]

How do you know 'Amanda's friends are fiercely loyal'? I sense this is just a soundbite you just made up. I suspect you are talking about friends of Curt, Chris and Edda. Are you SURE you're not getting paid for spin?

You were doing better when you were bragging about your chess prowess. Now you are accusing people of being sociopaths and others of being paid spin doctors, and refuting loyalty with no evidence at all.

You think that because you are able to ask the question that that proves something.

One day the mods will moderate this thread according to skeptical principles and evidence-based posts. Either that or take the word "skeptics" out of the title of the forum.

 

[christianahannah]

And on the "satanic rites" matter, there appears to be a certain amount of credible evidence that Mignini originally intended to include this as part of imputed motive, but that others in the prosecutors' office dissuaded him from doing so. In addition, there's no doubt that in the early days (early-mid November 2007) many journalists were writing about satanic rituals, satanic orgies, the link to Halloween and so on, and it appears that a lot of this almost certainly came via briefings from police and/or prosecutors.

I don't know if this is fact based or not (Mignini, satanic rites, motive) but I haven't found it in my research (there is still more information out there so there may be substantive facts to back this up).

As far as journalists go they didn't need briefings from police or prosecution to write about satanic rituals, etc. The time of the murder and circumstances surrounding it lent itself to early (speculative) writing.

 

[acbytesla]

Not worth getting frothed up about, AC. Knox is not a sociopath. She's never exhibited any sociopathic traits. I'd agree that if she HAD participated in the Kercher murder, then her actions around and since the time of the murder could be open to a certain amount of psychiatric interpretation. But since she didn't participate in the Kercher murder, that's a moot point.

I think you have to understand that to a large proportion of pro-guilt ARGUMENTS, it's a mandatory part of the narrative and raison-d'etre to NEED to demonise Knox and Sollecito, and in particular to find Knox to be a manipulative, cunning, evil bitch. It's all a crucial part of the warped observation and damaged thinking that concocts a belief in the guilt of Knox and Sollecito and then zealously guards and promotes that belief. But you, and I, and any reasonable person, know that such approaches are both a) spectacularly wrong and b) unsupported by any reliable, credible evidence. And the psychology/psychiatry underpinning this set of warped beliefs is fascinating in itself.

Anyhow, the take-home message is this: Knox is not a sociopath. And any false claims that she is a sociopath are the product of poor thinking, poor reasoning, and inability to assess evidence correctly and objectively.

I understand what they are doing LJ. They must demonize her because there is no evidence and no visible motivation.

I also think this manipulative she witch personification has some kind of psycho-sexual thrill for them. Men are not responsible for their urges, it's the pretty girl's fault. Notice how both Raffaele and Rudy disappear from the conversation?

The whole sociopathic idea is based on circular reasoning which is intellectually dishonest. It starts like this. Only a sociopath would kill. Amanda is the killer, therefore we can say that Amanda is a sociopath and her motivation is that she is a sociopath.

 

[Vixen]

Grinder,
I agree that the media can royally screw up a story (as evidenced by the two different accounts you linked to for Ha). Over time it seems like the stories converged to the truth (Ha's account is corroborated by the witnesses).

Relating to the whole sex game Mignini thing -- I have read enough accounts from people who were at the proceedings where I feel comfortable saying Mignini said and believed something akin to a pagan sex scenario in his legal ramblings. I don't think I have read a single account where Mignini came in to trial with something rational. If you can find a source of something different (and not just a PGP saying "nuh uh" because they don't want to admit the whole thing is ridiculous) where Mignini's initial account sounded reasonable and completely different than a sex game, I'd like to see it. Then there's his whole (confirmed) conspiracy theorizing with the Monster of Florence case, and it dramatically increases the probability that he's a loon obsessed with coming up with outlandish theories involving Satanism to explain straightforward crimes. Pretty far from an infallible prosecutor just out for the truth.

NotEvenWrong, you are quite wrong. Mignini has never used the term ritual re the Kercher murder. You might think satanism does not exist, but during the trial the cottage was broken into a couple of times. On one occasion, the perp left a knife on the kitchen table, one pointing towards the murder room and there were wax marks from a candle.

Police were right to consider all theories as the black cat downstairs was found to be bleeding, it happened on a Thursday night, said to be the satanists' sabbath, and Raff did express an interest in the occult, via Marilyn Manson, who did inspire the Columbine college killings, not to mention manga vampire slaying, which, in Japan, traditionally happens, guess when?, Halloween, no matter how preposterous you personally might think the idea.

 

[Bill Williams]

NotEvenWrong, you are quite wrong. Mignini has never used the term ritual re the Kercher murder. You might think satanism does not exist, but during the trial the cottage was broken into a couple of times. On one occasion, the perp left a knife on the kitchen table, one pointing towards the murder room and there were wax marks from a candle.

Police were right to consider all theories as the black cat downstairs was found to be bleeding, it happened on a Thursday night, said to be the satanists' sabbath, and Raff did express an interest in the occult, via Marilyn Manson, who did inspire the Columbine college killings, not to mention manga vampire slaying, which, in Japan, traditionally happens, guess when?, Halloween, no matter how preposterous you personally might think the idea.

It's rare that a guilter admits that Migini was "right" to pursue the Satanic rite, ritualistic killing angle. Most run from this like the plague because it is (outside Italy) preposterous. The most Vixen can do here is propose a four-degree of separation between Raffaele and killings in Colorado! Mainly because Raffaele read a Manga comic book once.

If everyone who had read a manga, or if everyone who'd once used a Ouiji Board turned into sociopathic killers, then the planet would truly be zombie-ville.....

Yes, ladies and gentleman, I present - Vixen. Who now supports Mignini in his satanic-rite rituals, while at first seemingly pooh-poohing it. That takes talent!

 

[Vixen]

Only an aside, it seems it isn't just Mignini, but Italy. They have given part of their country to a religion that is the most cultish of major religions IMO and they seem to be obsessed with the occult, Masons etc.

There is no doubt that many theories involving sex were out there from very early on. Sex game gone bad was the first I remember, which along with "we questioned her until she buckled and told us what we knew to be correct" were the red flag rockets that made very skeptical from the beginning.

Now we have a major TV show broadcasting Rudi and his story, quoting from the verdict stating M&B said Amanda was there and washed her hands of Meredith's blood and no media, I've seen to date, has questioned it. Italy currently seems to be a very backward country with the oddest of beliefs. Yes they were advanced once, but then so were the Mayans.

Italy has its problems with poverty, high unemployment, large families crammed in together, not to mention serious organised crime and boat people trafficking. However, it is not a 'backward country'. It is highly civilised. The best parts of the Victoria & Albert Museum for me is the Italian Renaissance section (sculptures), likewise, the art galleries and British Museum. I am not a Catholic but I love to walk around the Catholic cathedrals such as Westminster, St Albans (might be protestant High Anglican) or Canterbury. There is no way being religious makes it backward. In fact, here in London a bunch of atheists have set up a secular church where atheists can meet up to sing pop songs together, so jealous are they of the high culture of choral music.

Italy has massive crucifixes on the walls of their courts and schools, but then it is home to the Pope, and catholicism has always shown remnants of the old pagan panopoly of Roman gods and goddesses, now reinvented as the saints and the Virgin Mary. That is not so different from the divine right of kings remants on British Court walls, "Mon dieu et mon droit". Everywhere we go, we are reminded it all belongs to Her Majesty the Queen, including prisons, postal service, the armed forces, etc, etc, and you must admit, the UK is one of the most civilised countries in the world, if not the most.

Given Amanda's obsession with sex, the murder probably did have something to do with it. It is not "slut-shaming" (in the UK a slut is simply a slovenly woman, bad at housekeeping, our word would be "slag"). I mention it because irresponsible promiscuity can be a classic symptom of sociopathy.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

It's rare that a guilter admits that Migini was "right" to pursue the Satanic rite, ritualistic killing angle. Most run from this like the plague because it is (outside Italy) preposterous. The most Vixen can do here is propose a four-degree of separation between Raffaele and killings in Colorado! Mainly because Raffaele read a Manga comic book once.

If everyone who had read a manga, or if everyone who'd once used a Ouiji Board turned into sociopathic killers, then the planet would truly be zombie-ville.....

Yes, ladies and gentleman, I present - Vixen. Who now supports Mignini in his satanic-rite rituals, while at first seemingly pooh-poohing it. That takes talent!

Jackpot! We finally got ol' Vixen to admit it. Should the thread be moved to conspiracy theories now? I bet we can find a satanic link with the fake moon landings somewhere if we just find the right pattern. Let's consult Mignini.

 

[Vixen]

And Stefanoni is the only person to ever to find any incriminating DNA against Amanda or Raffaele.She also refuses full discovery. How does one trust actions like that?

This is yet another one of the myths you PIP love to tell yourselves. The stuff the defense were demanding be disclosed went far beyond the reasonable or conventional. It's the old tactic of asking for more and more pedantic material. It's no surprise the judge threw out the application. It was just a time-wasting, bullying and unreasonable demand, which would never end, even to the extent of wanting to see the content of all the lab's rubbish bins, and then a trip to the landfill to dig out shredded paper. Enough already!