Split Thread the TM and anti-semitism

[Oystein]

"Anti-mafia = anti-Italian" is on a par with "911 trutherism = antisemitic"

That's a strawman. No one equates truthers with antisemites.

Some truther blaming jews is anti-semitic?
I dont know. Why should he be?

Careful with the wording:
"Blaming jews" is anti-semitic.
"Blaming some (specific) jews" may very well be not anti-semitic.

Some anti-semitic truther blaming jews is anti-semitic?
Apparently, if he's anti-semitic to begin with. Thats different.

Some anti-semitic truther blaming certain jews is much more likely to be anti-semitic than some non-anti-semitic person blaming certain jews.

Its like someone gets called racist only because they are critical of Obama's job performance. Ridiculous.

What if you knew that someone is a racist to begin with, and you heard him being critical of Obama's job performance - would you consider it more likely that he is critical because of his racism? I would! More likely - not certain.


To give you my perspective:
It appears to me (= this is my perception, but I don't have robust data to prove it) that a much higher proportion of Truthers is anti-semitic than of the general population.
How do I spot them as anti-semites?

• Pointing out that that people they blame are Jews - good indication. They rarely point out that GW Bush has English ancestry or is a Christian, or that Shyam Sunder is of Indian descent. It seems that being Jewish is relevant in a way that being a Indian or a Christian is not.
• Hypothesizing that 9/11 is part of some history spanning generations and starting out with Jewish bankers - yes, these old anti-semitic conspiracy theories are well alive
• Blaming Israel without specificity and evidence - I have very often seen people blame Mossad, I am totally unaware of any evidence actually implicating Mossad, other than the anti-semitic conviction that Israel and Mossad are prime evil and behind everything bad in the world
• It's strange that none of these Israel-blamers ever blame Germany - Germany has started enough world wars to be on everybody's list of usual suspects, AND Atta and several of his buddies planned the attacks from Hamburg, Germany! (Or perhaps Truthers could fantasize that they were framed by the Germans).

None of these indications is sufficient to prove anti-semitism by its lonesome self, but once you spot someone communicating along those lines, if you look more into how they talk and think, you will usually find clear anti-semitic patterns.


So what is it with truthers and anti-semitism? I logically see the following possibilities

1. My perception is wrong - there really isn't a statistical correlation between the two
2. Anti-semites are more likely to believe in 9/11 CTs
3. 9/11 Truthers are more likely to become anti-semites
4. The same traits that make someone more likely to become an anti-semite also make them prone to believing in 9/11 CTs

My money would be split between 4. and 2.
After all, anti-semitism really is the mother of all CTs.

 

[beachnut]

"Anti-mafia = anti-Italian" is on a par with "911 trutherism = antisemitic"

Some truther blaming jews is anti-semitic?
I dont know. Why should he be?


Some anti-semitic truther blaming jews is anti-semitic?
Apparently, if he's anti-semitic to begin with. Thats different.


Its like someone gets called racist only because they are critical of Obama's job performance. Ridiculous.

I am not surprised stormfront dolts may be 911 truth believers, or 911 truth believers my be antisemitic - the intelligence level to be a bigot is conducive for falling for the idiotic lies 911 truth pushes.

Blaming Jews for 19 idiots attacking the USA may not be antisemitic, but it is dumber than dirt. It is possible the dolt is antisemitic.

LOL, the Obama analogy is funny, because many are racists when they make up BS, which may be mistaken for being critical about Obama - if we have missed the lies and BS about Obama, then we may be mistaking lies and bigotry for criticism. Poor analogy; blaming Jews for 911 usually is an idiot who has no clue they are antisemitic. (I guess the people pushing lies about Obama may not be racist, but then they are dumber than dirt)

Guess the dolts in 911 truth could be delusional, thinking 19 terrorists were Jews, which is par for 911 truth nuts and dolts.

 

[HotRodDeluxe]

I am not surprised stormfront dolts may be 911 truth believers, or 911 truth believers my be antisemitic - the intelligence level to be a bigot is conducive for falling for the idiotic lies 911 truth pushes.

Many Stormfront supporters on one site I frequent are truthers. The 'dancing Israelis' canard comes up with alarming regularity, and 'da Jooz' are behind 9/11, and just about every other event that happens in the world today.

Personally, in my experience 9/11 truth and anti-Semitism are concomitant. I am labelled a 'Zioshill'; a 'Sayanim'; a 'Jewbot' and every other anti-Semitic term you can think of just because I understand the irrational nature of truther claims.

They are the vilest individuals one could interact with online.

 

[Jango]

This may be off topic...but I came across this quote from The Atlantic:

"Yet the new anti-Semitism flourishing in corners of the European Muslim community would be impoverished without the incorporation of European fascist tropes. Dieudonné M’bala M’bala, a comedian of French Cameroonian descent who specializes in Holocaust revisionism and gas-chamber humor, is the inventor of the quenelle, widely understood as an inverted Nazi salute. His followers have taken to photographing themselves making the quenelle in front of synagogues, Holocaust memorials, and sites of past anti-Jewish terrorist attacks. Dieudonné has built an ideological partnership with Alain Soral, the anti-Jewish conspiracy theorist and 9/11 “truther” who was for several years a member of the National Front’s central committee. Soral was photographed not long ago making the quenelle in front of Berlin’s Holocaust memorial."

Is certainly real among some people and groups, however, the usage of labeling someone or a group anti-Semitic has become an umbrella term to include criticism or dissent and is not strictly limited to prejudice against Jews because they're Jewish. The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt is an example of criticism being called anti-Semitism.

 

[Jango]

Many Stormfront supporters on one site I frequent are truthers. The 'dancing Israelis' canard comes up with alarming regularity, and 'da Jooz' are behind 9/11, and just about every other event that happens in the world today.

Personally, in my experience 9/11 truth and anti-Semitism are concomitant. I am labelled a 'Zioshill'; a 'Sayanim'; a 'Jewbot' and every other anti-Semitic term you can think of just because I understand the irrational nature of truther claims.

They are the vilest individuals one could interact with online.

1. Mossad is one of the world's smallest intelligence services. But it has a back-up system no other outfit can match. The system is known as sayanim, a derivative of the Hebrew word lesayeah, meaning to help.

There are tens of thousands of these "helpers". Each has been carefully recruited, sometimes by katsas, Mossad's field agents. Others have been asked to become helpers by other members of the secret group.

Created by Meir Amit, the role of the sayanim is a striking example of the cohesiveness of the world Jewish community. In practical terms, a sayan who runs a car rental agency will provide a kidon with a vehicle on a no-questions basis. An estate agent sayan will provide a building for surveillance. A bank manager sayan will provide funds at any time of day or night, and a sayan doctor provides medical assistance.

In other words, the term itself is not anti-Semitic, but a Hebrew way of saying a network of loyal Jews willing to help other Jews at a moment's notice.

2. You may really believe that, but I don't classify anti-Semitism as being worse than rape, murder, human trafficking or many other dark, sinister and evil groups of people on the Internet, be it above on the open net or (especially) below on the dark net.

 

[Oystein]

1. ... the term ['Sayanim'] itself is not anti-Semitic, but a Hebrew way of saying a network of loyal Jews willing to help other Jews at a moment's notice.

No, the term is not. But its use in the context that HotRodDeluxe described is. The speaker clearly implied that
- Mossad is behind 9/11
- HotRodDeluxe is a Mossad supporter
Both implied claims have no evidence for them whatsoever and reflect on the prejudices of the speaker alone, not reality as determined by rational skepticism. These prejudices are anti-semitic.

2. You may really believe that, but I don't classify anti-Semitism as being worse than rape, murder, human trafficking or many other dark, sinister and evil groups of people on the Internet, be it above on the open net or (especially) below on the dark net.

If it turned out that a highly vocal and visible proportion of Truthers were part of groups of rapists, murderers^[*] or human traffickers, we'd point that out, too as potentially significant. This is not a contest of what is the most vile sin, this is a matter of observing reality






^[*] Of course it has been pointed out that several murders and murder-suicides have been committed by well-known truthers over the years. I do not believe this is significant. I once researched relevant statistics and found no robust evidence that incidence of murder is higher among the TM than among the general US population.

 

[Bubba]

.....[*]Blaming Israel without specificity and evidence - I have very often seen people blame Mossad, I am totally unaware of any evidence actually implicating Mossad, other than the anti-semitic conviction that Israel and Mossad are prime evil and behind everything bad in the world

Also, IIRC some were blaming Mossad as follows.

Mars and Venus are in conflict.

So Martians cause Earthlings to believe that they have been attacked by Venutians because Mars wants Earth to attack Venus.

So what is it with truthers and anti-semitism? I logically see the following possibilities

1. My perception is wrong - there really isn't a statistical correlation between the two
2. Anti-semites are more likely to believe in 9/11 CTs
3. 9/11 Truthers are more likely to become anti-semites
4. The same traits that make someone more likely to become an anti-semite also make them prone to believing in 9/11 CTs

My money would be split between 4. and 2.
After all, anti-semitism really is the mother of all CTs.

Seriously?
How so?
.

 

[Oystein]

Also, IIRC some were blaming Mossad as follows.
Mars and Venus are in conflict.
So Martians cause Earthlings to believe that they have been attacked by Venutians because Mars wants Earth to attack Venus.

Seriously?

Seriously?
How so?
.

 

[Bubba]

Posted by Bubba View Post
Also, IIRC some were blaming Mossad as follows.

Mars and Venus are in conflict.
So Martians cause Earthlings to believe that they have been attacked by Venutians because Mars wants Earth to attack Venus.

Seriously?

If it helps:

Mars = Mossad.
Venus = Arabs
Earth = USA

Yes seriously.
They claimed Mossad orchestrated 911 so that USA would attack Mossad's enemies.
I'm not saying it made sense.

According to its proponents in 911 truther world, it was a garden variety false flag attack scenario.
Lack of evidence didnt matter to them.

BTW I was inspired by this in your post 61

"Blaming Israel without specificity and evidence - I have very often seen people blame Mossad, I am totally unaware of any evidence actually implicating Mossad, other than the anti-semitic conviction that Israel and Mossad are prime evil and behind everything bad in the world "

 

[Oystein]

If it helps:

Mars = Mossad.
Venus = Arabs
Earth = USA

Yes seriously.
They claimed Mossad orchestrated 911 so that USA would attack Mossad's enemies.
I'm not saying it made sense.

According to its proponents in 911 truther world, it was a garden variety false flag attack scenario.
Lack of evidence didnt matter to them.
BTW I was inspired by this in your post 61

Thanks for explaining.
So why would they say such things? -> Anti-semitism.

 

[carlitos]

If it turned out that a highly vocal and visible proportion of Truthers were part of groups of rapists, murderers^[*] or human traffickers, we'd point that out, too as potentially significant. This is not a contest of what is the most vile sin, this is a matter of observing reality


^[*] Of course it has been pointed out that several murders and murder-suicides have been committed by well-known truthers over the years. I do not believe this is significant. I once researched relevant statistics and found no robust evidence that incidence of murder is higher among the TM than among the general US population.

I'd love to see this data. Please share and prepare for an extensive review and critique of your methodology.

 

[Oystein]

I'd love to see this data. Please share and prepare for an extensive review and critique of your methodology.

On this forum, perhaps 3 years ago. The search function may help, if you are interested. I am not at this time.

 

[carlitos]

Knowing what we know about human memory (both yours and mine), I'm forced to conclude that you have no evidence to make your claim above.

If you have any keywords or further hints for me to try, I'll do my best to search for your stuff.

 

[njslim]

Many of the Paleo-truthers (talking 2001-2002) like Eric Hufschmidt,
Chris Bollyn (of AMERICAN FREE PRES, successor to notorious rag SPOTLIGHT)
et al came out of the Anti Semitic conspiracy movement . They blamed the JOOS for anything and everything claimed was wrong with the country

It was these clowns who "advised" Dillion Avery and his gang of stoners - providing many of the tropes that truthers repeat endlessly

Later on Avery and most of the 911 truthers switched from blatant Antisemitism to "ANTI ZIONISM" as their theme

Anti Zionist allowed to blame the Jews, Israel and Mossad without the taint
of Antisemitism

 

[carlitos]

That would be Dylan Avery^WP:

https://youtu.be/c5-Ph0Mv-2I?t=42s

 

[Oystein]

Knowing what we know about human memory (both yours and mine), I'm forced to conclude that you have no evidence to make your claim above.

If you have any keywords or further hints for me to try, I'll do my best to search for your stuff.

Do I seriously have to present evidence to support the claim "I once researched relevant statistics and found no robust evidence..."??

But if you must: Here is what I was refering to:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8972772#post8972772

 

[HotRodDeluxe]

1. Mossad is one of the world's smallest intelligence services. But it has a back-up system no other outfit can match. The system is known as sayanim, a derivative of the Hebrew word lesayeah, meaning to help.

There are tens of thousands of these "helpers". Each has been carefully recruited, sometimes by katsas, Mossad's field agents. Others have been asked to become helpers by other members of the secret group.

Created by Meir Amit, the role of the sayanim is a striking example of the cohesiveness of the world Jewish community. In practical terms, a sayan who runs a car rental agency will provide a kidon with a vehicle on a no-questions basis. An estate agent sayan will provide a building for surveillance. A bank manager sayan will provide funds at any time of day or night, and a sayan doctor provides medical assistance.

In other words, the term itself is not anti-Semitic, but a Hebrew way of saying a network of loyal Jews willing to help other Jews at a moment's notice.

I know all this, and the individuals in question use it as an ad hom. You see, if you think for just a moment, a Jew-helper is just as bad as a Jew to these anti-Semites. It's not too difficult to understand if you bother to note the context.

2. You may really believe that, but I don't classify anti-Semitism as being worse than rape, murder, human trafficking or many other dark, sinister and evil groups of people on the Internet, be it above on the open net or (especially) below on the dark net.

What an inane response. You don't even know the individuals I'm talking about so please refrain from projection and facile assumption. Furthermore, your beliefs are of no interest to me.

 

[Jango]

I know all this, and the individuals in question use it as an ad hom. You see, if you think for just a moment, a Jew-helper is just as bad as a Jew to these anti-Semites. It's not too difficult to understand if you bother to note the context.

What an inane response. You don't even know the individuals I'm talking about so please refrain from projection and facile assumption. Furthermore, your beliefs are of no interest to me.

Your post I responded to initially:

Many Stormfront supporters on one site I frequent are truthers. The 'dancing Israelis' canard comes up with alarming regularity, and 'da Jooz' are behind 9/11, and just about every other event that happens in the world today.

Personally, in my experience 9/11 truth and anti-Semitism are concomitant. I am labelled a 'Zioshill'; a 'Sayanim'; a 'Jewbot' and every other anti-Semitic term you can think of just because I understand the irrational nature of truther claims.

They are the vilest individuals one could interact with online.

You're talking about supporters of Stormfront being "the vilest individuals one could interact with online." In other words, the most unpleasant. Do you stand by that, that Stormfront supporters are the most unpleasant "individuals one could interact with online"?

Secondly, you in fact did call "'Sayanim'" an "anti-Semitic term".

 

[HotRodDeluxe]

You're talking about supporters of Stormfront being "the vilest individuals one could interact with online." In other words, the most unpleasant. Do you stand by that, that Stormfront supporters are the most unpleasant "individuals one could interact with online"?

Note the following:

"Many Stormfront supporters on one site I frequent are truthers. "

Now, the key words you seemed to have completely ignored are "Many"...and "on a site I frequent". These are the individuals in question, not Stormfront overall, as you seem to imagine (I don't know where you pulled that from).

Secondly, you in fact did call "'Sayanim'" an "anti-Semitic term".

And the individuals in question use it as an anti-Semitic term (note context, yet again). I apologise if my post didn't outline every single nuance perfectly. I'll try to be more pedantic in future for your benefit.

 

[Jango]

Note the following:

"Many Stormfront supporters on one site I frequent are truthers. "

Now, the key words you seemed to have completely ignored are "Many"...and "on a site I frequent".

I hope that helps with your poor comprehension.

Do you or do you not consider whomever you're talking about to be "the vilest individuals one could interact with online"?

And the individuals in question use it as an anti-Semitic term (note context, yet again). I apologise if my post didn't outline every single nuance perfectly. I'll try to be more pedantic in future for your benefit.

Precision of language would be helpful, thanks.