Split Thread Foreknowledge of events on 9/11

[GlennB]

There's more than one version of the truth?

Over in the 'steel' thread you threw out some major doubts about office fire temperatures and the weakening of structural steel as a result. Some people filled you in with the facts and you didn't even acknowledge them.

You have no interest in 'truth'.

 

[ProBonoShill]

You obviously care enough to ask me what I think about it. How many posts do you have in the CT forum again?

The care was in the asking, making twofers look dumb is entertaining for some of us, your thoughts- outside their comedic value- are worthless.

You saying I won't find it here? Yeah, I figured that out before I joined.

Again, why are you still here? 14 years of failure and counting! Good job Sport!

 

[ProBonoShill]

Yep that's a possibility, do you have any info that indicates otherwise?

Please share any details you believe links the CIA to your make believe inside job. Might as well add the FBI as well and the NYPD too. Citing specific names would be awesome, just want a clear indication of who you're accusing of mass murder,

Thanks!

Still waiting for those details Jango.

Who are you accusing of mass murder. Specific names please.

TIA

 

[Axxman300]

xplain why when the CIA knew that Mihdhar and Hazmi had entered the US, and they knew they were al Qaeda terrorists who were connected to the east Africa bombings,

Customs alert.

why they kept this information secret from the FBI?

Customs sends the same alert to the FBI. The CIA assumed the FBI was reading the alerts and responding.

Since there was already a criminal FBI investigation into the east Africa bombings, it was in fact a substantial Federal crime for the CIA to keep this information secret from these FBI criminal investigators.

The CIA and FBI were working together at ALEC Station. The FBI knew when the CIA knew. No information was kept from the Bureau.

In other words the CIA secretly snuck extremely dangerous al Qaeda terrorists Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi into the United States,

Nope. They arrived on commercial airlines at an international airport, and went through Customs. That means there was a whole other agency that missed them...as they stamped their passports.

when they clearly knew these terrorists were connected to murder of over 200 people and 12 US citizens,

So they'd been indicted by DoJ? Then the Marshalls should have been on top of them too. But they hadn't been indicted.

and even knew that they had just attended a al Qaeda planning meeting, planning future attacks on the US. How in the hell do you explain this

CIA didn't have verification of any of this.

 

[Axxman300]

C.I.A. isn't a law agency, they're an intelligence agency. Is it your claim that the C.I.A. has never operated domestically in spite of the law restricting domestic operations?

Not since the 1970s after the Church Commission.

CIA can conduct research, but it cannot spy inside the country. More importantly - it hasn't done so since the 1970s.

 

[beachnut]

There's more than one version of the truth?

In the real world? No. But in fantasyland of woo, where 911 truth mock the murder of thousands with dumbed down lie... In 911 truth there are many version of lies; and lies are the only truth 911 truth has.
Nukes did it
DEW did it
Explosives did it
Thermite did it
and then it gets worse,,,
fake planes
missiles
shot down planes
and worse, and dumber,,, like foreknowledge

 

[Jango]

Not since the 1970s after the Church Commission.

CIA can conduct research, but it cannot spy inside the country. More importantly - it hasn't done so since the 1970s.

And you believe they have followed the law. Why?

 

[Axxman300]

And you believe they have followed the law. Why?

Because they're not above it.

More importantly, the majority of CIA employees take the Constitution more seriously than their elected leaders do. How many leaks have we seen out of Langley since 2002? NYTimes runs a story about the torture of Al Qaeda prisoners...source? CIA agents not cool with this wasted tactic.

The last time they crossed the line was when they accessed a joint US Senate/CIA storage server where the documents into the Guantanamo Bay activities were stored, but even then it's not clear if they broke the law or not. No indictments have been handed down, just a censure from the Senate Intelligence Committee. Even so, nothing was altered nor removed.

Beyond that the CIA has had a clean record.

Throw in the problem of Langley being mostly understaffed through most of the 1990s and the truth is they didn't have enough people to cover the world's trouble spots as it was, let alone pulling operations within the US.

 

[Jango]

Because they're not above it.

What about their finances? That immediately came to mind. Do they make their receipts of spent taxpayer money public as required by the law of the land?

More importantly, the majority of CIA employees take the Constitution more seriously than their elected leaders do. How many leaks have we seen out of Langley since 2002? NYTimes runs a story about the torture of Al Qaeda prisoners...source? CIA agents not cool with this wasted tactic.

Some noble folks blew the whistle while others tortured people.

The last time they crossed the line was when they accessed a joint US Senate/CIA storage server where the documents into the Guantanamo Bay activities were stored, but even then it's not clear if they broke the law or not. No indictments have been handed down, just a censure from the Senate Intelligence Committee. Even so, nothing was altered nor removed.

An assumption to say it was the last time they crossed the line. You don't consider hacking and spying on the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee to be a crime?

Beyond that the CIA has had a clean record.

An assumption.

Throw in the problem of Langley being mostly understaffed through most of the 1990s and the truth is they didn't have enough people to cover the world's trouble spots as it was, let alone pulling operations within the US.

While they did suffer from what you said, it is an assumption to say that from 1990 until the end of the decade that they did not operate domestically at all.

 

[Dave Rogers]

There's more than one version of the truth?

No. That's why you're stuck with the one you don't want.

Dave

 

[Axxman300]

What about their finances? That immediately came to mind. Do they make their receipts of spent taxpayer money public as required by the law of the land?

Actually yes. The public usually doesn't get to see the receipts for a few years, but eventually they become public record. That's how we know about all of the cash that vanished in Iraq. The have an accounting office like every other government agency (as required by law), and their budget for 2015 is estimated at $50 billion.

Some noble folks blew the whistle while others tortured people.

You missed the point. The White House and Congress signed off on torture, it was the CIA that was not happy about it and leaked it. In short, the CIA stood up for the Constitution and morality.

An assumption to say it was the last time they crossed the line. You don't consider hacking and spying on the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee to be a crime?

It was a shared network set up for the witch-hunt, I mean investigation on the interrogation program. So it wasn't hacked, just misused. I call it a witch-hunt because everyone involved in the Senate already knew about the program and approved it before hand.

While they did suffer from what you said, it is an assumption to say that from 1990 until the end of the decade that they did not operate domestically at all.

It's not an assumption, I have sited a few of the many times that the CIA has leaked information about its activities to the press when its employees felt, or knew lines were being crossed.

Steering this back to the topic, the fact that we know that the CIA and FBI knew as much as they did about the 9-11 hijackers is testament to integrity of the Americans who work for those entities. Every time the elected leadership threw up a stone wall a memo was leaked to the press. These leaks have had the unique situation of being confirmed by the Snowden files, and the Manning leak where everything including the kitchen sink was cast out into the public domain.

What Truther's and CT-loons ignore is that the CIA does not initiate operations on its own. They are guided by the White House NSC, the House, and the Senate. The other aspect ignored is that the FBI, DEA, BATF, and DOE all have ongoing intelligence gathering operations within CONUS, and all of them are good at what they do. If you think the competition between the CIA and FBI over Alec Station was bad, try throwing the rest of those agencies into the mix. They're all competing for funding, and would love to stick it to the CIA if it meant more $$ for their budgets. Where the CIA does work within the US it does so under the supervision of one of these other agencies (CIA and DEA often work together along the US/Mexico border with FBI and Customs).

In short, that's a lot of eyeballs and smartphones for the CIA to dodge. They don't possess magic powers, and since in the end they are just another government agency they are targeted by other government agencies hoping to steal some of their turf (and the funding that goes with it).

 

[Jango]

Actually yes. The public usually doesn't get to see the receipts for a few years, but eventually they become public record. That's how we know about all of the cash that vanished in Iraq. The have an accounting office like every other government agency (as required by law), and their budget for 2015 is estimated at $50 billion.

Figures have been made public, but as you said, it takes "a few years." Also, see this:

Neither the number of employees nor the size of the Agency's budget can, at present, be publicly disclosed. A common misconception is that the Agency has an unlimited budget, which is far from true. While classified, the budget and size of the CIA are known in detail and scrutinized by the Office of Management and Budget and by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, and the Defense Subcommittees of the Appropriations Committees in both houses of Congress. The resources allocated to the CIA are subject to the same rigorous examination and approval process that applies to all other government organizations.

In 1997, the aggregate figure for all US government intelligence and intelligence-related activities—of which the CIA is but one part—was made public for the first time. The aggregate intelligence budget was $26.6 billion in fiscal year 1997 and $26.7 billion for fiscal year 1998. The intelligence budgets for all other years remain classified.

Last Updated: Mar 21, 2013 09:19 AM

The Snowden leaks helped provide some data, but it appears that the budgets themselves remain classified according to the C.I.A.'s own website. But, perhaps the information is out of date.

You missed the point. The White House and Congress signed off on torture, it was the CIA that was not happy about it and leaked it. In short, the CIA stood up for the Constitution and morality.

No, I didn't miss your point. In fact, I acknowledged it by saying "Some noble folks blew the whistle". While that is the case, there remained C.I.A. personnel who, as President Obama said, "tortured some folks."

It was a shared network set up for the witch-hunt, I mean investigation on the interrogation program. So it wasn't hacked, just misused. I call it a witch-hunt because everyone involved in the Senate already knew about the program and approved it before hand.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/r/20...7-30 Unclass Summary of RDI ROI 31 Jul 14.pdf

Also, don't you think it is hyperbole to say "everyone involved in the Senate already knew about the program and approved it before hand"? (Emphasis mine) Senators may have been aware of the torture program, but not every Senator is equally powerful. In matters such as this, we'd be looking at the Chairperson and Ranking Members of a select few committees, like those on Intelligence and the Armed Services in particular. Senators like the Majority and Minority leaders, same with the House to include the Speaker would similarly be informed.

It's not an assumption, I have sited a few of the many times that the CIA has leaked information about its activities to the press when its employees felt, or knew lines were being crossed.

Yes it is. We don't have the complete collection of facts between those years of what the C.I.A. did or did not do.

Steering this back to the topic, the fact that we know that the CIA and FBI knew as much as they did about the 9-11 hijackers is testament to integrity of the Americans who work for those entities. Every time the elected leadership threw up a stone wall a memo was leaked to the press. These leaks have had the unique situation of being confirmed by the Snowden files, and the Manning leak where everything including the kitchen sink was cast out into the public domain.

Yeah, there are good and honest people working in the Security Services. That I have never questioned. Nor have I questioned the opposite of that, that there are bad and dishonest people too who work for our Security Services.

What Truther's and CT-loons ignore is that the CIA does not initiate operations on its own. They are guided by the White House NSC, the House, and the Senate. The other aspect ignored is that the FBI, DEA, BATF, and DOE all have ongoing intelligence gathering operations within CONUS, and all of them are good at what they do. If you think the competition between the CIA and FBI over Alec Station was bad, try throwing the rest of those agencies into the mix. They're all competing for funding, and would love to stick it to the CIA if it meant more $$ for their budgets. Where the CIA does work within the US it does so under the supervision of one of these other agencies (CIA and DEA often work together along the US/Mexico border with FBI and Customs).

I recall beachnut stating the exact opposite of that, that agencies like those from the Security Services don't have to wait for upper bureaucracy to initiate operations.

And yes, they are all competing for funds. I've never said otherwise.

In short, that's a lot of eyeballs and smartphones for the CIA to dodge. They don't possess magic powers, and since in the end they are just another government agency they are targeted by other government agencies hoping to steal some of their turf (and the funding that goes with it).

Again, I've never hinted at, suggested or claimed otherwise.

 

[Axxman300]

I recall beachnut stating the exact opposite of that, that agencies like those from the Security Services don't have to wait for upper bureaucracy to initiate operations.

CIA is an intelligence Agency. They conduct strategic intelligence operations and military intelligence operations. The strategic operations are initiated from the top down as conditions and situations develop. Bay of Pigs, Pinochet, Diem, STUXNET, and operations along those lines all were green-lit by the White House well in advance.

Their military intelligence operations can be more fluid depending on the when and where. In Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, or Syria these operations are initiated locally, but within a larger framework (ROE) set forth from the NSC.

None of them involve spying within the United States. There's no need for them to do so.

* I meant to say that the Senate Intelligence & House Intelligence Committees had been briefed on the interrogations and signed off on them.

 

[Jango]

CIA is an intelligence Agency. They conduct strategic intelligence operations and military intelligence operations. The strategic operations are initiated from the top down as conditions and situations develop. Bay of Pigs, Pinochet, Diem, STUXNET, and operations along those lines all were green-lit by the White House well in advance.

Their military intelligence operations can be more fluid depending on the when and where. In Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, or Syria these operations are initiated locally, but within a larger framework (ROE) set forth from the NSC.

None of them involve spying within the United States. There's no need for them to do so.
* I meant to say that the Senate Intelligence & House Intelligence Committees had been briefed on the interrogations and signed off on them.

1. Spying is but a part of the broader context I've said: operating domestically.

The CIA has plans to relocate the headquarters of its domestic division, which is responsible for operations and recruitment in the United States, from the CIA's Langley headquarters to Denver, a move designed to promote innovation, according to U.S. intelligence and law enforcement officials.

Continued:

About $20 million has been tentatively budgeted to relocate employees of the CIA's National Resources Division, officials said. A U.S. intelligence official said the planned move, confirmed by three other government officials, was being undertaken "for operational reasons."

A CIA spokesman declined to comment. Other current and former intelligence officials said the Denver relocation reflects the desire of CIA Director Porter J. Goss to develop new ways to operate under cover, including setting up more front corporations and working closer with established international firms.

Continued:

The main function of the domestic division, which has stations in many major U.S. cities, is to conduct voluntary debriefings of U.S. citizens who travel overseas for work or to visit relatives, and to recruit foreign students, diplomats and businesspeople to become CIA assets when they return to their countries.

Continued:

Although collecting information on U.S. citizens under suspicion for terrorist links is primarily an FBI function, the CIA may also collect information on citizens under limited circumstances, according to a 1981 executive order. The exact guidelines for those operations are spelled out in a classified document signed by the CIA director and approved by the attorney general.

Continued:

Last week, the CIA and FBI agreed to a new "memorandum of understanding" on domestic and foreign operations, the first change in decades. The negotiations surrounding the memo were highly contentious, with the FBI saying that it should control and approve the CIA's domestic activities, including its pool of U.S.-based assets that have been invaluable in the past to understanding the intentions of foreign nations and groups.

But the FBI is having significant problems developing its own domestic intelligence branch and the CIA is generally viewed across the intelligence community as more experienced and skilled at handling foreign informants who eventually return abroad, where the CIA has the lead in intelligence gathering and operations.

Both the CIA and FBI are trying to deepen their outreach to U.S. research and academic institutions and to private subcontractors working on major government contracts abroad.

Once more:

In response to questions this week about the new agreement, the FBI and CIA issued a joint statement to The Washington Post. "The FBI and CIA are committed to effective, joint operations to safeguard our nation," it says. "To that end, we are completing work on a memorandum of understanding that will codify our joint operating principals. We are pleased with both the process and the outcome and we recognize that our joint efforts will enhance national security."

Under the agreement, the CIA must coordinate its operations with the FBI. The CIA's domestic division has agreed to provide the FBI with more information about its operations and debriefings. One goal of updating the memo was to ensure that the two agencies were not working at cross purposes and were aware if one or the other had already recruited or debriefed someone.

A few years ago, an American company placed a want ad for an aerospace engineering consultant in an Asian newspaper. It quickly drew a flurry of applicants - one of whom was just the kind of person the company was looking for: someone who worked in that country's missile program, someone who was a little sleazy, someone looking to make a little cash on the side.

This was a CIA front operation, and soon that eager applicant was supplying the spy agency with details on his country's ballistic missile program.

That kind of covert activity is a specialty of the CIA's National Resources Division, a little-known, U.S.-based component of the agency's National Clandestine Service.

Continued:

Think of it as a more cuddly CIA. Its main business is to openly gather information from Americans who've traveled to places the CIA is interested in, particularly hard targets like North Korea, and to inveigle foreigners in the U.S. - officials, scientists and students - into spying when they return home.

Continued:

NR's operations also irritate the turf-conscious FBI, which is in charge of domestic counterintelligence and counterterrorism and also recruits foreigners here as spies. Others argue that its intimate relations with top U.S. corporate executives willing to have their companies fronting for the CIA invites trouble at home and abroad.

In New Brunswick, N.J., a building superintendent opened the door to apartment No. 1076 one balmy Tuesday and discovered an alarming scene: terrorist literature strewn about the table and computer and surveillance equipment set up in the next room.

The panicked superintendent dialed 911, sending police and the FBI rushing to the building near Rutgers University on the afternoon of June 2, 2009. What they found in that first-floor apartment, however, was not a terrorist hideout but a command center set up by a secret team of New York Police Department intelligence officers.

From that apartment, about an hour outside the department's jurisdiction, the NYPD had been staging undercover operations and conducting surveillance throughout New Jersey. Neither the FBI nor the local police had any idea.

Since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, the NYPD has become one of the country's most aggressive domestic intelligence agencies. A months-long investigation by The Associated Press has revealed that the NYPD operates far outside its borders and targets ethnic communities in ways that would run afoul of civil liberties rules if practiced by the federal government. And it does so with unprecedented help from the CIA in a partnership that has blurred the bright line between foreign and domestic spying.

Continued:

The department has dispatched teams of undercover officers, known as "rakers," into minority neighborhoods as part of a human mapping program, according to officials directly involved in the program. They've monitored daily life in bookstores, bars, cafes and nightclubs. Police have also used informants, known as "mosque crawlers," to monitor sermons, even when there's no evidence of wrongdoing. NYPD officials have scrutinized imams and gathered intelligence on cab drivers and food cart vendors, jobs often done by Muslims.

Many of these operations were built with help from the CIA, which is prohibited from spying on Americans but was instrumental in transforming the NYPD's intelligence unit.

A veteran CIA officer, while still on the agency's payroll, was the architect of the NYPD's intelligence programs. The CIA trained a police detective at the Farm, the agency's spy school in Virginia, then returned him to New York, where he put his new espionage skills to work inside the United States.

And just last month, the CIA sent a senior officer to work as a clandestine operative inside police headquarters.

From an office on the Brooklyn waterfront in the months after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, New York Police Department officials and a veteran CIA officer built an intelligence-gathering program with an ambitious goal: to map the region's ethnic communities and dispatch teams of undercover officers to keep tabs on where Muslims shopped, ate and prayed.

The program was known as the Demographics Unit and, though the NYPD denies its existence, the squad maintained a long list of "ancestries of interest" and received daily reports on life in Muslim neighborhoods, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.

The documents offer a rare glimpse into an intelligence program shaped and steered by a CIA officer. It was an unusual partnership, one that occasionally blurred the line between domestic and foreign spying. The CIA is prohibited from gathering intelligence inside the U.S.


More on this NYPD-C.I.A. program from the AP: http://www.ap.org/Index/AP-In-The-News/NYPD


2. I figured as much.

 

[beachnut]

1. Spying....

Great example of off topic Gish Gallop - which has nothing to do with telling the future, combining BS facts to say there was foreknowledge of 911.

Yes, UBL said he would kill Americans, including kids and women, and his buddies found a way - and 911 truth founds new ways to make up dumbed down lies from CD to no planes, and more idiotic claims.

 

[Axxman300]

Recruiting is not spying. The CIA needs new people all the time, and it's a great place to work.

Second, The NYPD's Intelligence Unit has been around well before 9-11-2001, and it was enhanced after the attack with the CIA's help (actually their job), but under the NYPD's existing structure. Every big-city police force has an intelligence unit today.

The NYPD Unit is not a branch of the CIA.

You ignored this:

Both the NYPD and CIA have said the agency is not involved in domestic spying. A U.S. official familiar with the NYPD-CIA partnership described Sanchez's time in New York as a unique assignment created in the wake of the 9/11 attacks.

NYC has been a target for terror going back to the 19th Century, and the WTC was attacked in 1993, and secondary attacks were stopped by the NYPD SDU in the 90s as well. The NYPD isn't going to wait around for the CIA or FBI to feed them intelligence any more, hence the new enhanced unit.

 

[Axxman300]

Great example of off topic Gish Gallop - which has nothing to do with telling the future, combining BS facts to say there was foreknowledge of 911.

Yes, UBL said he would kill Americans, including kids and women, and his buddies found a way - and 911 truth founds new ways to make up dumbed down lies from CD to no planes, and more idiotic claims.

Lack of focus is why he's into CTs.

 

[Jango]

Recruiting is not spying. The CIA needs new people all the time, and it's a great place to work.

Second, The NYPD's Intelligence Unit has been around well before 9-11-2001, and it was enhanced after the attack with the CIA's help (actually their job), but under the NYPD's existing structure. Every big-city police force has an intelligence unit today.

The NYPD Unit is not a branch of the CIA.

You ignored this:



NYC has been a target for terror going back to the 19th Century, and the WTC was attacked in 1993, and secondary attacks were stopped by the NYPD SDU in the 90s as well. The NYPD isn't going to wait around for the CIA or FBI to feed them intelligence any more, hence the new enhanced unit.

As I said from the beginning of the post: "Spying is but a part of the broader context I've said: operating domestically."

The C.I.A. does operate domestically.

When they're recruiting people, how do you think that goes? They walk up to someone cold and say, "Excuse me, sir/ma'am, we're from the C.I.A. and we'd like you to work for us." Or do you think they watch their intended target for a bit before approaching?

 

[Jango]

Lack of focus is why he's into CTs.

And here I thought we were having a substantive conversation. Now you want to hurl insults and assume things about me. Thanks for nothing.

 

[JSanderO]

Recruiting and operating are two different things. They probably have people working for them in the media... Look at the run up to the Iraq war... On the other hand their were plenty of hawks that didn't need a script handed to them...