Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[acbytesla]

Reactionary is an identifiable personality trait. For example, you can predict that someone who believes in flogging, also believes in hanging, is right-wing, resistant to change, narrow-minded.

I do not believe in flogging, hanging, am centre party, adaptable, broadminded.

Huh? What the hell are you talking about? And the last thing you are is broad minded and adaptable to change.

You say your cop friends are 'the best', yet you also say they lie and intimidate suspects. That can never be ethical. It is not their job to mete out punishment or terrify suspects.

I'm surprised to hear you say that since the Italian cops did exactly that to Amanda.

 

[Grinder]

Vocabulary.com
A reactionary is someone reacting (in horror) to what most of the world considers to be progress. No one describes themselves as reactionary––you will hear it more often as a condemnation, as in "I cannot support the reactionary policy of mandatory military service for 18-year-olds."

Do you understand that your definition is the same as mine? Reactionary refers to a political conservative position therefore; A reactionary is someone reacting (in horror) to what most of the world considers to be progress.

 

[Numbers]

Returning to the issue of any extradition, the US Secretary of State has complete discretion not to extradite someone.

If the US Secretary of State were to consider that the request for extradition should not be satisfied, because, for example, the allegations against the person sought were unfounded, the Secretary need only reject the request and provide one or more reasons, according to the extradition treaty between the US and Italy.

US law states that the Secretary of State has full discretion to not extradite, even if a person is found extraditable:

18 US Code 3186 (in Chapter 209) {excerpt}

The Secretary of State may order the person committed under sections 3184 or 3185 of this title to be delivered to any authorized agent of such foreign government, to be tried for the offense of which charged.

 

[Grinder]

No I agree. From their point of view they have a guy whose shoes appeared to match the bloody prints at the scene telling them an implausible story about the shoes being borrowed and miraculously returned the next morning, unnoticed.

This would naturally corroborate the police suspicion against the students and influence how they interpreted the evidence. But the PGP constantly fall back on the excuse that the police would never pursue innocent people.

The distinction for me is whether the police pursued people they knew were innocent from near the beginning, which I don't believe. I see them building their suspicion which culminated in the 6th statement. Then they had a 'confession" of sorts and now they knew they had their perp.

I doubt the police pursue people they know are innocent often unless they are one of the usual suspects and this is a way to get them.

 

[Grinder]

Returning to the issue of any extradition, the US Secretary of State has complete discretion not to extradite someone.

If the US Secretary of State were to consider that the request for extradition should not be satisfied, because, for example, the allegations against the person sought were unfounded, the Secretary need only reject the request and provide one or more reasons, according to the extradition treaty between the US and Italy.

US law states that the Secretary of State has full discretion to not extradite, even if a person is found extraditable:

18 US Code 3186 (in Chapter 209) {excerpt}

The Secretary of State may order the person committed under sections 3184 or 3185 of this title to be delivered to any authorized agent of such foreign government, to be tried for the offense of which charged.

Thanks Numbers but I think most of us got that during the big extradition debate before the final ruling.

If I missed the part whereby the law must be similar in the state the person resides (or resided?), could you just repost that link?

Btw if I break a law somewhere and return to the US and make sure I live in a state that doesn't have the same law does that protect me? If I shoot someone in England to protect my property should I move to Florida?

 

[acbytesla]

Do you understand that your definition is the same as mine? Reactionary refers to a political conservative position therefore; A reactionary is someone reacting (in horror) to what most of the world considers to be progress.

You're right. I just thought it was a little closer to what I was thinking. But you were right earlier about the word has been evolving. There is no doubt that that the word is in transition. (Something you hate ) From my thoughts it was as like how certain elements or chemicals react only to certain other chemicals.

 

[bagels]

The distinction for me is whether the police pursued people they knew were innocent from near the beginning, which I don't believe. I see them building their suspicion which culminated in the 6th statement. Then they had a 'confession" of sorts and now they knew they had their perp.

I doubt the police pursue people they know are innocent often unless they are one of the usual suspects and this is a way to get them.

I think the police, at least initially, believed firmly in the guilt of their suspects. In fact I more or less use the PGP line of reasoning, they would never pursue a total frame job against two otherwise upstanding students.

Once Rudy showed up it becomes more ambiguous. But as you pointed out, the police are just as likely to stubbornly maintain an irrational belief in the same way an innocent person makes up a story to rationalize the accusation.

These behaviors are counter-intuitive to the neutral observer but seem well documented. The PGP are in denial.

 

[Grinder]

You're right. I just thought it was a little closer to what I was thinking. But you were right earlier about the word has been evolving. There is no doubt that that the word is in transition. (Something you hate ) From my thoughts it was as like how certain elements or chemicals react only to certain other chemicals.

Actually I'd say it is devolution (DEVO). There is a word that describes what you wanted to say and it is reacted, reactive, or reactively.

The misuse of the word peruse has made it meaningless. Now it can mean it's original read carefully or to scan which makes it worthless. Why these sorts of changes make you gleeful is a mystery.

The word reactionary has a meaning that is useful. I can describe Cruz as a reactionary and you should know what it means. If your desire to make words mean what they sound like to you then in the future people will be able to say Bill Clinton was a reactionary because when attacked he reacted.

 

[Numbers]

Thanks Numbers but I think most of us got that during the big extradition debate before the final ruling.

If I missed the part whereby the law must be similar in the state the person resides (or resided?), could you just repost that link?

Btw if I break a law somewhere and return to the US and make sure I live in a state that doesn't have the same law does that protect me? If I shoot someone in England to protect my property should I move to Florida?

I was wrong in my earlier posts about how dual criminality is determined in US extradition law. It does not need to be based only on the State law where the sought person is found.

US case law allows dual criminality to be decided on any of these factors:

1. Federal law; 2. State law of the State where the sought person is found; 3. Law in a preponderance of States. Requirements in Federal law relating to crossing of State borders are not relevant to a determination of dual criminality.

The facts of the alleged offense, and not the label or name applied to the offense, are considered in determining whether or not a match exists.

 

[acbytesla]

Put yourself in the shoes of a detective. You have to be able to think like a criminal. You have to have the mind of a chess player, two steps ahead. Funnily enough, as it takes one to know one, there is invariably a game that develops of the criminal trying to outwit the cop and the cop anticipating the antics of the perp.

Raff has the chess player mind. He precluded the cops on several occasions, for example, explaining away Mez' DNA on the knife blade as when he pricked her hand and the shoe prints as, "someone must have borrowed my shoes".

So we see a huge psychological battle develop between Amanda and Raff and the police. The police have an advantage. They have seen it all before (for example, staged burglaries), they have heard all the stories (for example, "I can't remember", seen all the tactics (for example ringing up the dead person, as an alibi).

So, you are an ambitious cop and you are faced with an icy cold supsect determined to outwit you. How would YOU handle it? Do you ensure you've received all the latest interview techniques and received loads of experience? Of course you do. You send in your best cops to deal with it. You don't send in someone who's going to have the whole thing tossed aside as a mistrial.

The guy in the article misrepresented Reid in his three day course and in any case, police in the UK have adopted PEACE, and probably in Italy.

How do you know Italy uses Reid? It's a guess, right?

I'll address your last 2 sentences first. I'm 90 percent sure they admitted employing it during testimony. I also seemed to remember Giobbi or Mignini saying that they were. Also it's clear that they were.

You give far tto much credit to both Amanda, Raffaele and the police. One, the idea that 2 naive 22 year olds being equated to hardened criminals is absurd. BTW, being good at chess does not prepare you for dealing with the police.

 

[Grinder]

I was wrong in my earlier posts about how dual criminality is determined in US extradition law. It does not need to be based only on the State law where the sought person is found.

US case law allows dual criminality to be decided on any of these factors:

1. Federal law; 2. State law of the State where the sought person is found; 3. Law in a preponderance of States. Requirements in Federal law relating to crossing of State borders are not relevant to a determination of dual criminality.

The facts of the alleged offense, and not the label or name applied to the offense, are considered in determining whether or not a match exists.

Thanks so much.

 

[acbytesla]

Actually I'd say it is devolution (DEVO). There is a word that describes what you wanted to say and it is reacted, reactive, or reactively.

The misuse of the word peruse has made it meaningless. Now it can mean it's original read carefully or to scan which makes it worthless. Why these sorts of changes make you gleeful is a mystery. The word reactionary has a meaning that is useful. I can describe Cruz as a reactionary and you should know what it means. If your desire to make words mean what they sound like to you then in the future people will be able to say Bill Clinton was a reactionary because when attacked he reacted.

I think it amuses me that this is sort of a pet peeve of yours when I see it as a constant. Did you know that athe one time people believed that a mouse was a small furry rodent?

 

[Grinder]

I think it amuses me that this is sort of a pet peeve of yours when I see it as a constant. Did you know that athe one time people believed that a mouse was a small furry rodent?

It is more than a pet peeve of mine. A mouse is still a small furry rodent and a device to move a cursor around. I don't see the added use as destructive.

Are you able to see the issue with the words I was troubled by? When peruse started to mean to read carefully or to scan it, because uneducated people thought it sounded like it should mean scan, it lost all of it's value. It means nothing now.

If reactionary is allowed to mean a person that reacts and not what it does mean which a person that resists progressive changes then that word too will lose its value.

I can imagine it makes your life easier to just make up meanings which goes along with your MO on so much.

 

[Bill Williams]

It is more than a pet peeve of mine.

Pet peeves are to Grinder what body building is to Schwarzenegger.

 

[acbytesla]

It is more than a pet peeve of mine. A mouse is still a small furry rodent and a device to move a cursor around. I don't see the added use as destructive.

Are you able to see the issue with the words I was troubled by? When peruse started to mean to read carefully or to scan it, because uneducated people thought it sounded like it should mean scan, it lost all of it's value. It means nothing now.

If reactionary is allowed to mean a person that reacts and not what it does mean which a person that resists progressive changes then that word too will lose its value.

I can imagine it makes your life easier to just make up meanings which goes along with your MO on so much.

I'm not trying to offend you but this does crack me up. It doesn't bother me at all since I see the evolution or devolution of words as a constant. This is what happens to language. You can not stop it any more than you can change the world from spinning.

It reminds me of when I was a kid and was told there is no such word as "ain't..Reasons given was it wasn't proper and it wasn't in the dictionary. And voila! You could not only find it in the dictionary but in the great American novel!

It's like the story of Mark Twain getting angry at editors who felt the need of editing his grammar. It's funny.

 

[acbytesla]

Pet peeves are to Grinder what body building is to Schwarzenegger.

Now that is funny.

 

[Grinder]

I'm not trying to offend you but this does crack me up. It doesn't bother me at all since I see the evolution or devolution of words as a constant. This is what happens to language. You can not stop it any more than you can change the world from spinning.

It reminds me of when I was a kid and was told there is no such word as "ain't..Reasons given was it wasn't proper and it wasn't in the dictionary. And voila! You could not only find it in the dictionary but in the great American novel!

It's like the story of Mark Twain getting angry at editors who felt the need of editing his grammar. It's funny.

As they say ignorance is bliss. You spew out so much misinformation it cracks me up.

 

[Vixen]

No! Breathing is not autonomic, the principle breathing muscle is the diaphragm, a striated muscle not a smooth muscle innervated by the phrenic nerve not the sympathetic or parasympathetic components of the autonomic nervous system. Very little of what you do is conscious - one does not directly control all your leg and trunk muscles when walking or running, most of what you do is unconscious. Indeed there is evidence that even what we think is conscious is really sophisticated unconscious activity. When asleep one moves arms and legs and breathes. If deeply unconscious, or brain dead, breathing stops when autonomic activity continues e.g. heart beat.

The autonomic nervous system is defined anatomical structure(s). It does not refer to any automatic or unconscious bodily activity! Having claimed a degree in psychology that involved a significant neurological / physiological component you seem to have a poor grasp of facts on a par with your claimed mathematical expertise.

From: http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/systems/respiratory/lung3.htm

Breathing and the Autonomic Nervous System
You don'*t have to think about breathing because your body's autonomic nervous system controls it, as it does many other functions in your body. If you try to hold your breath, your body will override your action and force you to let out that breath and start breathing again. The respiratory centers that control your rate of breathing are in the brainstem or medulla. The nerve cells that live within these centers automatically send signals to the diaphragm and intercostal muscles to contract and relax at regular intervals. However, the activity of the respiratory centers can be influenced by these factors:

Oxygen: Specialized nerve cells within the aorta and carotid arteries called peripheral chemoreceptors monitor the oxygen concentration of the blood and feed back on the respiratory centers. If the oxygen concentration in the blood decreases, they tell the respiratory centers to increase the rate and depth of breathing.
Carbon dioxide: Peripheral chemoreceptors also monitor the carbon dioxide concentration in the blood. In addition, a central chemoreceptor in the medulla monitors the carbon dioxide concentration in the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) that surrounds the brain and spinal cord; carbon dioxide diffuses easily into the CSF from the blood. If the carbon dioxide concentration gets too high, then both types of chemoreceptors signal the respiratory centers to increase the rate and depth of breathing. The increased rate of breathing returns the carbon dioxide concentration to normal and the breathing rate then slows down.
Hydrogen ion (pH): The peripheral and central chemoreceptors are also sensitive to the pH of the blood and CSF. If the hydrogen ion concentration increases (that is, if the fluid becomes more acidic), then the chemoreceptors tell the respiratory centers to speed up. Hydrogen ion concentration is heavily influenced by the carbon dioxide concentration and bicarbonate concentration in the blood and CSF.
Stretch: Stretch receptors in the lungs and chest wall monitor the amount of stretch in these organs. If the lungs become over-inflated (stretch too much), they signal the respiratory centers to exhale and inhibit inspiration. This mechanism prevents damage to the lungs that would be caused by over-inflation.
Signals from higher brain centers: Nerve cells in the hypothalamus and cortex also influence the activity of the respiratory centers. During pain or strong emotions, the hypothalamus will tell the respiratory centers to speed up. Nerve centers in the cortex can voluntarily tell the respiratory center to speed up, slow down or even stop (holding your breath). Their influence, however, can be overridden by chemical factors (oxygen, carbon dioxide, pH).
Chemical irritants: Nerve cells in the airways sense the presence of unwanted substances in the airways such as pollen, dust, noxious fumes, water, or cigarette smoke. These cells then signal the respiratory centers to contract the respiratory muscles, causing you to sneeze or cough. Coughing and sneezing cause air to be rapidly and violently exhaled from the lungs and airways, removing the offending substance.
Of these factors, the strongest influence is the carbon dioxide concentration in your blood and CSF followed by the oxygen concentration.

Sometimes the respiratory centers go temporarily awry and send extra impulses to the diaphragm. These impulses cause unwanted contractions (hiccups). The same thing happens in unborn children; many pregnant women often feel their babies hiccup. This happens because the respiratory centers of the developing child's brain are working just like those of an adult even though they are not yet breathing air.

Clear now?

 

[Vixen]

From the article:

“They accused me of hitting the wrong button.” Some even confabulated details, such as “I hit it with the side of my hand.” Not only had they internalized their guilt; they had come up with a story to explain it. Although Kassin made sure to inform the students afterward that the experiment was a hoax, they sometimes replied, “You’re just trying to make me feel better.”​

When confronted by police lies people try to explain what they are being told is the truth. As we now know, or at least the vast majority of capable people, the shoe prints were left by Rudi - Raf knew he hadn't left them (guilty or innocent) so his statement makes him look innocent. If guilty and knowing he had not left the prints why would he say something so stupid?

OK, so what about Raff's fear when Rudy was caught, "He might say strange things about me".

And lo and behold, his prophecy came true!

Would this be part of the 'alt' keyboard syndrome, too?

 

[LondonJohn]

Observing behaviour is a valid part of solving crime It is not the same as claiming to be expert in 'body language'.

What do you call this then?

13. Both Mignini and Zugarini described having had impression that #amandaknox was feeling “relieved of a burden” after accusing Lumumba.

Is that "observing behaviour" or is it some sort of attempt to read Knox's mind?

...snip...

Edited by jsfisher: 

Edited for compliance with Rule 12 of the Membership Agreement.